A question I've always had about "external influence"

Discussion of meditation in the Mahayana and Vajrayana traditions.
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Hermes
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A question I've always had about "external influence"

Post by Hermes »

Hello everyone, this is going to be my first post on the forum.
I greet you and wish you well, wherever you are, whenever you are.

I wanted to come on here to ask a question as it pertains to all forms of meditation in daily life.
My question is a little hard to put into words, but it seeks to capture the experience of one dealing with "external", mainly negative, influence that can happen through thought forms being transferred to one while engaged in daily activities, that might be called meditation.
I propose this as an open-ended discussion geared towards ways in which one may establish their self-sovereignty when dealing with noise in the environment that suggests thought-forms that, when one's mind is not trained adequately, may lead to the introduction of negative, self sabotaging, destructive ideas that may cause pains in the stomach, abdomen, and even the heart area of the body when entertained.

So essentially, my issue I've been dealing with for a long time now is that sometimes my environment seems to suggest to me ideas that I do not want to entertain, mostly object thought-forms that may seem as labels to things, events, triggers, or even at their extremes, people.
I've mostly encountered the feeling of painfulness of this when focusing my Mind on emptiness, or creating an experience of nothingness, no thoughts in the Mind. Usually what happens is some intrusive thoughts try to appear and I don't entertain them at all, but sometimes I am not adequately focused and these thoughts "peek" into my Mind and I get a feeling of pain in my body.

I am aware that one can "shield" themselves by thinking of service to others, Love, Light, the Divine, and other extremely positive thoughts, i.e. gratitude. I have also tapped into equanimous states, where I can see beyond any thought-forms and see their unreality, only seeing the One reality, which is True and Absolutely "Good" for it's own sake.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: A question I've always had about "external influence"

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Hermes wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 2:09 am I've mostly encountered the feeling of painfulness of this when focusing my Mind on emptiness, or creating an experience of nothingness, no thoughts in the Mind. Usually what happens is some intrusive thoughts try to appear and I don't entertain them at all, but sometimes I am not adequately focused and these thoughts "peek" into my Mind and I get a feeling of pain in my body.

I am aware that one can "shield" themselves by thinking of service to others, Love, Light, the Divine, and other extremely positive thoughts, i.e. gratitude. I have also tapped into equanimous states, where I can see beyond any thought-forms and see their unreality, only seeing the One reality, which is True and Absolutely "Good" for it's own sake.
Maybe don’t try to focus on emptiness, creating feelings of nothingness and all that other stuff.
Just sit and watch the breath, and allow the mind to rest in a natural state (don’t try to fabricate any kind of experiences). Then whatever negative thoughts arise, instead of focusing on them (which causes adrenaline to increase and results in physical discomfort) neither dwelling on them, nor trying to suppress them, don’t do anything, just go back to watching your breath or whatever is the focus method.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
SilenceMonkey
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Re: A question I've always had about "external influence"

Post by SilenceMonkey »

Hermes wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 2:09 am
It sounds to me like all of your problems arise from the duality of your own mind. Actually it's your own mind that is attaching labels to things, thus making these so-called "influences" good or bad. You want some things, but you don't want others. It's all just a silly game where your mind tries to create (and control) your experiences.

Instead of feeding into this duality by trying to shut out the bad stuff (for which you came up with some seemingly helpful, but actually harmful techniques for this), you might try shifting how you view the situation. It's actually not these "external influences" which are the problem, but your own mind's labelling of them -- saying, "Hey you! You're a problem!" This is actually the root of the problem. It all just goes downhill from there.

When we get into divine and demonic spirituality (ie. spiritual good and bad) without understanding how duality is created, we are asking for trouble. The fundamental battle raging on in our minds becomes spiritualized because we don't realize how we are unconsciously creating all of this war in the first place.

Nobody wants to be in a constant war for their whole lives... so why not just shift your perspective a little? See how your mind labels things as good or bad, right or wrong.... "I want it" and "I don't want it" will always make us suffer. So if you learn to let go of these ideas of good and bad, the karmic cycle of this issue will cease, and your problems will cease to be.

A lot of people hear this simple idea and think, "But if I let my guard down, how will I be able to protect myself?" But protect yourself from what exactly? What if you had no enemies in the first place? No bad guys to come knocking at your door, so there's really no need for a door. If there's nothing trying to harm us, why not let them in and serve them tea?

This is the principle of zen, vipassana and other techniques of meditation in Buddhism.
It's the basic teaching of awareness. Relax your body and mind... see thoughts come and go without labelling.
SilenceMonkey
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Re: A question I've always had about "external influence"

Post by SilenceMonkey »

It just occurred to me... if these "thought forms" are spirits of some kind, more might be required than calming the mind and letting go of the positive/negative projection of duality. But calming the mind would be a good start.
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Re: A question I've always had about "external influence"

Post by KathyLauren »

It is totally normal to have thoughts arise in the mind during meditation. It happens to everyone. If someone claimed otherwise, I would be skeptical. When thoughts do arise, just notice that the thought arose, and go back to the object of meditation, such as the breath. It doesn't mean that you failed as a meditator. It just means that you are human.

I find that voices are distracting. There is no way that I can hear someone talking and not get caught up in the conversation. However, other sounds are just sounds. They do not distract from the meditation. I notice them, I acknowledge them, and I go back to watching my breath.

My best-ever meditation was at the weekly puja with a group. It was a hot summer day, and the window of the shrine room was open. Just outside the window, a young magpie was demanding food from its parents. Loudly. I just incorporated the bird's cries into my meditation. There was no avoiding the sound, so I just switched my awareness from my breath to the bird's calls. I stayed more focused than in any previous session.

Om mani padme hum
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: A question I've always had about "external influence"

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Hermes wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 2:09 amSo essentially, my issue I've been dealing with for a long time now is that sometimes my environment seems to suggest to me
“...seems to suggest to me...”
start with that. Suggested by who?
‘Seems’ means that it gives you that impression.
But isn’t that impression merely your own interpretation?
ideas that I do not want to entertain, mostly object thought-forms that may seem as labels to things, events, triggers, or even at their extremes, people.
As been suggested by others, no need to entertain these passing thoughts.
I've mostly encountered the feeling of painfulness of this when focusing my Mind on emptiness, or creating an experience of nothingness, no thoughts in the Mind.
if doing those things produced pain, don’t do them.
Usually what happens is some intrusive thoughts try to appear and I don't entertain them at all, but sometimes I am not adequately focused and these thoughts "peek" into my Mind and I get a feeling of pain in my body.
That’s a bit vague. Back pain? Stomach pain?
“Adequately focused” shouldn’t need to be anything more than simply being aware of your breath inhaling and exhaling (at this time, I am assuming, based on the nature of the problem as you describe it).
EMPTIFUL.
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Jesse
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Re: A question I've always had about "external influence"

Post by Jesse »

Hermes wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 2:09 am Hello everyone, this is going to be my first post on the forum.
I greet you and wish you well, wherever you are, whenever you are.

I wanted to come on here to ask a question as it pertains to all forms of meditation in daily life.
My question is a little hard to put into words, but it seeks to capture the experience of one dealing with "external", mainly negative, influence that can happen through thought forms being transferred to one while engaged in daily activities, that might be called meditation.
I propose this as an open-ended discussion geared towards ways in which one may establish their self-sovereignty when dealing with noise in the environment that suggests thought-forms that, when one's mind is not trained adequately, may lead to the introduction of negative, self sabotaging, destructive ideas that may cause pains in the stomach, abdomen, and even the heart area of the body when entertained.

So essentially, my issue I've been dealing with for a long time now is that sometimes my environment seems to suggest to me ideas that I do not want to entertain, mostly object thought-forms that may seem as labels to things, events, triggers, or even at their extremes, people.
I've mostly encountered the feeling of painfulness of this when focusing my Mind on emptiness, or creating an experience of nothingness, no thoughts in the Mind. Usually what happens is some intrusive thoughts try to appear and I don't entertain them at all, but sometimes I am not adequately focused and these thoughts "peek" into my Mind and I get a feeling of pain in my body.

I am aware that one can "shield" themselves by thinking of service to others, Love, Light, the Divine, and other extremely positive thoughts, i.e. gratitude. I have also tapped into equanimous states, where I can see beyond any thought-forms and see their unreality, only seeing the One reality, which is True and Absolutely "Good" for it's own sake.
I would suggest that what you are perceiving is nothing more than additional wrong views, ideas and perceptions bound in duality. In our normal waking experience we perceive the world as subject-object. Eg: When I think something, it is I whom is thinking, and this is the thought I am having.

Through meditation states; you've perceived your own thoughts in an objective manner. In doing this the mind has perceived your own thoughts as externally originating. Another I is formed, and perceived as external to your own 'self'. This is potentially dangerous, and you should really consult with a highly qualified teacher about it in real life.

I would also suggest putting away any ideas about thought-forms. It's not a healthy way to think about these things.
intrusive thoughts try to appear and I don't entertain them at all, but sometimes I am not adequately focused and these thoughts "peek" into my Mind and I get a feeling of pain in my body.
Do you have any thoughts which are not sudden and spontaneous? It's just more grasping and aversion. " I identify with this though, it is good. I do not identify with that though, it is bad. It must not be me though thunk it. "

Grasping, and Aversion, layers and layers of additional unnecessary conceptualization, all to run away from a basic reality. The discriminating mind. When a thought arises, it's judged, discriminated; good; bad, want, or reject. Identify with, or not identify with; Clinging and Aversion.

Mindfulness is the primary solution, but it also requires an understanding the role of mindfulness in taming, and liberating our mind from grasping, and aversion. Meditating and mindfulness really requires a teacher, thing's can go wrong, and you need someone fully qualified to guide you in it's practice.

I hope you seek out a qualified teacher, or dharma center. It's in your best interests.
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Thus shall ye think of all this fleeting world:
A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream;
A flash of lightning in a summer cloud,
A flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream.
avatamsaka3
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Re: A question I've always had about "external influence"

Post by avatamsaka3 »

So essentially, my issue I've been dealing with for a long time now is that sometimes my environment seems to suggest to me ideas that I do not want to entertain, mostly object thought-forms that may seem as labels to things, events, triggers, or even at their extremes, people.
What environment? Which ideas? What are these "thought-forms"?
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Re: A question I've always had about "external influence"

Post by Jesse »

SilenceMonkey wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 7:08 pm
Hermes wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 2:09 am
It sounds to me like all of your problems arise from the duality of your own mind. Actually it's your own mind that is attaching labels to things, thus making these so-called "influences" good or bad. You want some things, but you don't want others. It's all just a silly game where your mind tries to create (and control) your experiences.

Instead of feeding into this duality by trying to shut out the bad stuff (for which you came up with some seemingly helpful, but actually harmful techniques for this), you might try shifting how you view the situation. It's actually not these "external influences" which are the problem, but your own mind's labelling of them -- saying, "Hey you! You're a problem!" This is actually the root of the problem. It all just goes downhill from there.

When we get into divine and demonic spirituality (ie. spiritual good and bad) without understanding how duality is created, we are asking for trouble. The fundamental battle raging on in our minds becomes spiritualized because we don't realize how we are unconsciously creating all of this war in the first place.

Nobody wants to be in a constant war for their whole lives... so why not just shift your perspective a little? See how your mind labels things as good or bad, right or wrong.... "I want it" and "I don't want it" will always make us suffer. So if you learn to let go of these ideas of good and bad, the karmic cycle of this issue will cease, and your problems will cease to be.


A lot of people hear this simple idea and think, "But if I let my guard down, how will I be able to protect myself?" But protect yourself from what exactly? What if you had no enemies in the first place? No bad guys to come knocking at your door, so there's really no need for a door. If there's nothing trying to harm us, why not let them in and serve them tea?

This is the principle of zen, vipassana and other techniques of meditation in Buddhism.
It's the basic teaching of awareness. Relax your body and mind... see thoughts come and go without labelling.
This 100%, if OP is still checking this thread, please read this carefully. If you can't get what you are experiencing under control, your mental health could very much be at risk. What you are experiencing is something akin to a meditative induced form of psychosis. (In psychiatric terms).

Because meditation increases our ability to perceive the happenings in our mind, we suddenly gain an abnormal amount of mental self awareness, and for people without proper instruction, and guidance it can lead to harm. In proper meditation, this increased self awareness is used to examine the nature of our experience, our mind. Without instruction/guidance, and proper understanding it can lead to increasing delusion, sometimes doing irreparable harm to the mind of the meditator.

So please tread carefully, and seek out guidance and help if you need it.
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Thus shall ye think of all this fleeting world:
A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream;
A flash of lightning in a summer cloud,
A flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream.
reiun
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Re: A question I've always had about "external influence"

Post by reiun »

Hermes wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 2:09 am Hello everyone, this is going to be my first post on the forum.
I greet you and wish you well, wherever you are, whenever you are.
Thank you, and and I wish you well too, especially since you are struggling.
Hermes wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 2:09 am
I propose this as an open-ended discussion geared towards ways in which one may establish their self-sovereignty when dealing with noise in the environment that suggests thought-forms that, when one's mind is not trained adequately, may lead to the introduction of negative, self sabotaging, destructive ideas that may cause pains in the stomach, abdomen, and even the heart area of the body when entertained.

. . .

I've mostly encountered the feeling of painfulness of this when focusing my Mind on emptiness, or creating an experience of nothingness, no thoughts in the Mind. Usually what happens is some intrusive thoughts try to appear and I don't entertain them at all, but sometimes I am not adequately focused and these thoughts "peek" into my Mind and I get a feeling of pain in my body.
If your symptoms do not otherwise arise, i.e., possibly due to a physical ailment, then consulting with a teacher as already suggested might be a good idea. This can be done through email or zoom at some centers if one is not within commuting distance. You might try calling and speaking with someone first, so you can explain the necessity. The fact that your symptoms correlate with your thoughts suggests that traditional counseling is a worthwhile option. Meditation that causes self-harm right now doesn't seem to be, and could lead downhill.
Hermes
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Re: A question I've always had about "external influence"

Post by Hermes »

Okay, so I see this post has gotten a decent amount of attention so I wanted to address some points.
First of all, appreciation of your environment, acceptance of the beauty of your temple space, and honoring the sacredness of it is absolutely essential in establishing a high integrity connection with your environment, allowing you to trust the guidance that comes to you while you are present in the space.
I wanted to mention that I have not always held the same environment, which is common amongst many people.
I have experienced being in environments that I had not even needed to become aware of any sort of "external influence" related to it.
I only became aware of this "external influence" when I got into college and started researching psychedelics by ingesting them myself.
I started to become aware of telepathic communication channels that were open to my awareness, where which I could establish a channel with other entities in which we would exchange thought-forms. I became aware that much could be embedded within these channels, including geometries and packets of energy.
The worst time I had to deal with "external influence" was in my third year of college, in which I had taken a studio apartment double with a foreign person, whom I didn't get to know too well, as this was the time of the beginning/middle of C-19 (pandemic simulation conducted by World Economic Forum) and there was a considerable amount of fear being spread around, causing less people to want to exchange love-light energies in the physical body complexes. I was going through an awakening and throughout this I was constantly expressing disdain for the housing situation I had been in, considering I did not have access to the school's cafeteria. My lack of appreciation towards my living space weakened my auric field, which made me so eager to leave the space for a space that felt more like home. The campus at this point felt like it was being bombarded by EMF frequencies / AI systems that were programming certain thought-forms within the collective consciousness of the community. It turned into a prison, and I began to ascend and align more and more with my rebellious freedom-loving truthseeking light body.
So I felt like the struggle here was to try to be in nature as much as possible, not caring too much about my studies, and even dropping out of school to pursue a more authentic spiritual life.
SilenceMonkey
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Re: A question I've always had about "external influence"

Post by SilenceMonkey »

Hermes wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 12:42 am
If you're looking for help from buddhism, there are countless methods for protecting yourself and maintaining a clarity in your mind and energy. I wonder if there might be a tibetan master near you, with whom you could ask for some practices to help with your particular situation?

In tibetan traditions, the methods are abundant, powerful and profound.
reiun
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Re: A question I've always had about "external influence"

Post by reiun »

Hermes wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 12:42 am First of all, appreciation of your environment, acceptance of the beauty of your temple space, and honoring the sacredness of it is absolutely essential in establishing a high integrity connection with your environment, allowing you to trust the guidance that comes to you while you are present in the space.
Ah, so you have great respect for, for example, this forum?
Hermes wrote: I only became aware of this "external influence" when I got into college and started researching psychedelics by ingesting them myself.
. . .
The worst time I had to deal with "external influence" was in my third year of college . . . I did not have access to the school cafeteria.
Tough diet!
Inedible
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Re: A question I've always had about "external influence"

Post by Inedible »

There are song versions of many of the popular mantras that you can get in MP3 form on Amazon. Like for Guru Rimpoche / Padmasambhava. Or even just "Om Mani Padme Hum". Find one you like and play it on loop at low volume in your personal space. It is an easy place to start.

You might want to try some of the Facebook groups on astral projection. This sort of concern tends to come up often there.
SilenceMonkey
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Re: A question I've always had about "external influence"

Post by SilenceMonkey »

Inedible wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 4:48 pm There are song versions of many of the popular mantras that you can get in MP3 form on Amazon. Like for Guru Rimpoche / Padmasambhava. Or even just "Om Mani Padme Hum". Find one you like and play it on loop at low volume in your personal space. It is an easy place to start.

You might want to try some of the Facebook groups on astral projection. This sort of concern tends to come up often there.
Don't worry about all the crap you see on the internet. Going to some random facebook group for advice on this sort of thing is not a good idea. Better to connect with a qualified master to help you out with your situation.
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