Debate over 'deathless door'

Discussion of meditation in the Mahayana and Vajrayana traditions.
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Supramundane
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Debate over 'deathless door'

Post by Supramundane »

I've been very interested by a debate, which is going on regarding vijnana. Some in Theravada circles refer to a 'universal vinanna', Nirvana, because it precedes death and succeeds death. Others characterize it as dukkha or even as karma. It is one of the five aggregates and one of the links in the causal chain.

There is an American Theravada monk called Ajajn Sumedho who, in fact, calls single-pointed meditation or awareness meditation a state of pure vijnana where there are no thought formations (sankhara). He thus concludes that this is the "deathless door" because it is free from karmic formations.

I note that this (seemingly) radical interpretation has a basis in sutra, as there is a sutra called the Eastern Gateway, which seems to echo his view. However, it seems to me from my reading, that vijnana is empty. It is thus impermanent and cannot be equated with Nirvana. It is also an error to equate Nirvana with emptiness. Nirvana is not emptiness although it might ultimately be empty, it is not some sort of reification of emptiness itself. It also seems to me that vijnana, although it proceeds birth and follows birth, is not something to aspire to. It is a link in the causal chain. It might be the transmitter of dukkha and karma, but it cannot be equated with these two concepts either, in my humble reading.

I know that there are some rather heated arguments online as to whether or not there is a universal vijnana which could be equated with Nirvana. It is true that, by cultivating awareness, and avoiding formations, we do have a stepping stone towards a greater realization. But I think it stops here. Or is awareness meditation the 'deathless door'??

Please let me know your views.
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LastLegend
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Re: Debate over 'deathless door'

Post by LastLegend »

Different names are used to point to nature...that is not mistaken. It has no characteristics that our mind imagines it to be. Ignorance is the hardest part to transcend. Easily being lead astray.
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Supramundane
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Re: Debate over 'deathless door'

Post by Supramundane »

But isn't dwelling on pure awareness not enough in itself?
Malcolm
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Re: Debate over 'deathless door'

Post by Malcolm »

Supramundane wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 3:24 pm But isn't dwelling on pure awareness not enough in itself?
No it is not enough in itself. Lacking insight, it is just śamatha, and does not have the power to remove afflictive patterning.
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LastLegend
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Re: Debate over 'deathless door'

Post by LastLegend »

Supramundane wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 3:24 pm But isn't dwelling on pure awareness not enough in itself?
There is subtle recognition of pure awareness. That’s ignorance according to my teacher. That isn’t mistaken isn’t because of that recognition.
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Supramundane
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Re: Debate over 'deathless door'

Post by Supramundane »

Malcolm wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 3:29 pm
Supramundane wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 3:24 pm But isn't dwelling on pure awareness not enough in itself?
No it is not enough in itself. Lacking insight, it is just śamatha, and does not have the power to remove afflictive patterning.
I agree!

However, there are dozens of youtube videos on Ajahn Sumedho where he expounds this idea.
Perhaps i have mischaracterized him since i am not familiar with Theravada.

Perhaps he means that literally it is 'only' a door, i.e. an entrance to something more profound.
In itself i do not think it is anything permanent or sublime, even if there are no sankhara, as he contends.
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Re: Debate over 'deathless door'

Post by LastLegend »

Supramundane wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 3:42 pm
Malcolm wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 3:29 pm
Supramundane wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 3:24 pm But isn't dwelling on pure awareness not enough in itself?
No it is not enough in itself. Lacking insight, it is just śamatha, and does not have the power to remove afflictive patterning.
I agree!

However, there are dozens of youtube videos on Ajahn Sumedho where he expounds this idea.
Perhaps i have mischaracterized him since i am not familiar with Theravada.

Perhaps he means that literally it is 'only' a door, i.e. an entrance to something more profound.
In itself i do not think it is anything permanent or sublime, even if there are no sankhara, as he contends.
Theravada isn’t known to be taught nature. Our mind often imagines and constructs a lot of crap.
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Re: Debate over 'deathless door'

Post by LastLegend »

Whatever practice we do should lead to understand that this nature never needed anything...it’s just that we have been covered with karma for long we have to practice to decrease karma.
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Supramundane
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Re: Debate over 'deathless door'

Post by Supramundane »

LastLegend wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 3:51 pm Whatever practice we do should lead to understand that this nature never needed anything...it’s just that we have been covered with karma for long we have to practice to decrease karma.
Are thoughts karma or carriers of karma?

Theravada seems caught up with 'sankhara', thought formations.

I have never heard the term mentioned in Mahayana systems.
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Re: Debate over 'deathless door'

Post by LastLegend »

The whole mental process isn’t just thoughts. Karma starts with intention and so grasping. What is intention? That’s for each of us to know.
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Supramundane
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Re: Debate over 'deathless door'

Post by Supramundane »

As you can see in this thread, the debate is rather pointed. I find it sort of amusing since to us, it seems like a non-issue.

https://sujato.wordpress.com/2011/05/13 ... e2%80%99t/

There are over a hundred comments!

If we look at the very short Sutra, the Eastern Gatehouse, however, it does seem to explicitly state that mindfulness is tantamount to deathlessness (!).

This idea is restated: https://youtu.be/ILTTZt4jO6g

It does seem counter-intuitive to equate nirvana with vijnana, so how can so many minds be preoccupied with this?
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Re: Debate over 'deathless door'

Post by reiun »

LastLegend wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 4:12 pm The whole mental process isn’t just thoughts. Karma starts with intention and so grasping. What is intention? That’s for each of us to know.
Actually, the Eightfold Path (2: right intention), and commentary, spells it out.
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Re: Debate over 'deathless door'

Post by LastLegend »

Viññāṇa is used in the ordinary sense of ‘sense consciousness’:

jihvayā hi rasān vijānāti || BrhUp_3,2.4 ||

For one knows tastes through the tongue.



Above is accurate.

Good post by Sujato. Except when he says mind also has to be transcended. Mind in his context is consciousness. The end of consciousness is temporary for Bodhisattvas just to be thorough of what nature is...yes, it’s the end of rebirth. Read Vimalakirti Sutra the conversation between Manjushri and Vimalakirti.

https://www.istb.univie.ac.at/wtmp/lva/ ... hurman.pdf
Last edited by LastLegend on Tue May 25, 2021 5:52 am, edited 2 times in total.
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LastLegend
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Re: Debate over 'deathless door'

Post by LastLegend »

reiun wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 4:58 am
LastLegend wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 4:12 pm The whole mental process isn’t just thoughts. Karma starts with intention and so grasping. What is intention? That’s for each of us to know.
Actually, the Eightfold Path (2: right intention), and commentary, spells it out.
You don’t even know what intention is in your mind. Intention is intention if it’s wrong you would know it right? That’s called karma and grasping...

You begin to irritate me. I think you need not respond to my posts.
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Re: Debate over 'deathless door'

Post by reiun »

No worries! It is rare that your posts cohere enough to welcome a comment.
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Re: Debate over 'deathless door'

Post by Supramundane »

LastLegend wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 5:25 am Viññāṇa is used in the ordinary sense of ‘sense consciousness’:

jihvayā hi rasān vijānāti || BrhUp_3,2.4 ||

For one knows tastes through the tongue.



Above is accurate.

Good post by Sujato. Except when he says mind also has to be transcended. Mind in his context is consciousness. The end of consciousness is temporary for Bodhisattvas just to be thorough of what nature is...yes, it’s the end of rebirth. Read Vimalakirti Sutra the conversation between Manjushri and Vimalakirti.

https://www.istb.univie.ac.at/wtmp/lva/ ... hurman.pdf
Yes LL and a very lively debate after. Seems to go beyond bounds though at certain points. I note that in this debate a Dzogchen guy jumped in, and there was also a Zen guy who leapt into the ring in full lotus position.

The UFC was founded to determine which fighting style was the best. Perhaps there should be a UFC of Buddhism?! Would be interesting.

I think the heart of the matter in this debate was trying to conceptualize Nirvana as a type of consciousness. I believe this is a misapprehension that causes the conflict.
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Re: Debate over 'deathless door'

Post by LastLegend »

reiun wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 6:01 am No worries! It is rare that your posts cohere enough to welcome a comment.
There are those who speak from contemplation and there are those who speak from learned concepts. It’s good for you to know that.
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Re: Debate over 'deathless door'

Post by LastLegend »

Supramundane wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 6:02 am
LastLegend wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 5:25 am Viññāṇa is used in the ordinary sense of ‘sense consciousness’:

jihvayā hi rasān vijānāti || BrhUp_3,2.4 ||

For one knows tastes through the tongue.



Above is accurate.

Good post by Sujato. Except when he says mind also has to be transcended. Mind in his context is consciousness. The end of consciousness is temporary for Bodhisattvas just to be thorough of what nature is...yes, it’s the end of rebirth. Read Vimalakirti Sutra the conversation between Manjushri and Vimalakirti.

https://www.istb.univie.ac.at/wtmp/lva/ ... hurman.pdf
Yes LL and a very lively debate after. Seems to go beyond bounds though at certain points. I note that in this debate a Dzogchen guy jumped in, and there was also a Zen guy who leapt into the ring in full lotus position.

The UFC was founded to determine which fighting style was the best. Perhaps there should be a UFC of Buddhism?! Would be interesting.

I think the heart of the matter in this debate was trying to conceptualize Nirvana as a type of consciousness. I believe this is a misapprehension that causes the conflict.
I can’t tell or care much what Nirvana from Sravakayana is about anymore. I agree with Sujato.
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Re: Debate over 'deathless door'

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Supramundane wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 2:35 pm ...it seems to me from my reading, that vijnana is empty. It is thus impermanent and cannot be equated with Nirvana. It is also an error to equate Nirvana with emptiness. Nirvana is not emptiness although it might ultimately be empty, it is not some sort of reification of emptiness itself.

This really just gets back to the age-old buddhist dilemma of something existing except that oops, it doesn’t exist, except here the animal in question is vijnana. One can refer back to the whole ‘form is emptiness/emptiness is form’ for help on this one.

But it’s also important to remember that emptiness isn’t a separate thing in itself. It's a description of the true nature of an object. We can only talk about the emptiness of something. In this case, the object is vijnana. So, one shouldn’t think of “emptiness” as some kind of universal consciousness.

Vijnana can be regarded as a substrate for everything, but that doesn’t mean it has any ‘thingness’ to it. It has no qualities, just as space is the substrate for the 3D material world yet space itself has no qualities. Space isn’t pink or salty or anything at all.

So, just in that respect, yes, vijnana is like nirvana. But this isn’t really news. It’s like in Vajrayana Buddhism referring to the ‘inseparability of samsara and nirvana’. In other words, when mind is functioning to generate samsara, it’s vijnana. When it isn’t generating samsara, it’s nirvana.

When the radio is plugged in, it makes noise and when you unplug it, it doesn’t. Is it the same radio? Since the radio is a composite, it has no intrinsic reality. That’s the emptiness of the radio. We can only really call it a radio when itvis functioning as a radio. Likewise, the ‘mind-awareness’ we are referring to can be labeled either nirvana or vijnana depending on what it is doing. The fact that it is not a composite and has no specific characteristics or qualities doesn’t really have any bearing on that. That’s really a separate issue.
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Re: Debate over 'deathless door'

Post by LastLegend »

Vijanna is kind of Nirvana... :lol:...sorry can’t compromise much here.
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