Thinking

Discussion of meditation in the Mahayana and Vajrayana traditions.
Mindful Entity
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Thinking

Post by Mindful Entity »

Hello!
I started meditating a couple years ago to ease my depression and anxiety. In the beginning I used to forcibly push away my thoughts because my view on meditation was that of being in a state of bliss. As time went on I came to the realization that by not accepting my thoughts I only make things worse. I am new to thoughts and would like to learn more about it.
My question is: How do you use meditation for constructive and analytical thinking and how do you apply it in your relationships, work and in life overall?
Thank you!
narhwal90
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Re: Thinking

Post by narhwal90 »

Learn to let go of thoughts, views, opinions, reactions on the cushion- then likewise out in the world.
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Queequeg
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Re: Thinking

Post by Queequeg »

Mindful Entity wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 6:39 pm Hello!
I started meditating a couple years ago to ease my depression and anxiety. In the beginning I used to forcibly push away my thoughts because my view on meditation was that of being in a state of bliss. As time went on I came to the realization that by not accepting my thoughts I only make things worse. I am new to thoughts and would like to learn more about it.
My question is: How do you use meditation for constructive and analytical thinking and how do you apply it in your relationships, work and in life overall?
Thank you!
There are many approaches to meditation that promise better thinking applied to relationships and work. Transcendental Meditation, for instance.

That's not what Buddhists generally do. To put it sort of humorously, we're not practicing to get better at samsara. We're looking to end samsara.

One of the more basic formulations framing meditation practice are the two practices of shamatha and vipashyana. Shamatha is the practice of profoundly stilling the mind. Vipashyana is a practice of observing the mind. You still the mind so that it can be observed.

Side effects may include being able to navigate life more skillfully and just generally being happy.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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tkp67
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Re: Thinking

Post by tkp67 »

It may seem counter intuitive to the mind's formulation processes that quiet awareness can provide conclusion. Yet this is where wisdom is gathered. There are contemplative practices but if I understand correctly they accord to a similar dynamic.
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Budai
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Re: Thinking

Post by Budai »

If you keep your mind steady by Meditating while chanting a Mantra (i.e. Nam Myoho Renge Kyo, Om Mani Padme Hum, Om Muni Muni Mahamuni Soha, etc.), I find that is the easist Way to Meditate on the Buddha. The importance of Meditating on the Buddha invokes His presance within your mind, and by sound vibration, one can bring to themselves the praise and presance of many Bodhisattvas and Buddhas. This opens up a massive alleyway of oppertunity in doing anything you want to do in Meditation. Mantra Meditation is like a "foundation" by which one can practice Mindfulness and powerful Vipassana, because your mind will be helped kept steady by the vibration of the Mantra. You can draw Spiritual strength and balance from Mantras, and that is why I am advocating using them in Meditation. I hope this helps. :namaste:
Last edited by Budai on Thu Feb 18, 2021 8:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Thinking

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Ruminating less, thinking more clearly, being aware of how thoughts color and make up day to day reality.

In other words:

Don't follow the past.

Don't anticipate the future.

Remain in the present moment.

Leave your mind alone.

Another way of putting it is letting go of the Eight Worldly Dharmas:

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

-Khunu Lama
karmanyingpo
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Re: Thinking

Post by karmanyingpo »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 11:48 pm Don't follow the past.

Don't anticipate the future.

Remain in the present moment.

Leave your mind alone.
From Orgyen Chowang Rinpoche's presentation of Padmasambhava, right? :)

KN
ma lu dzok pe san gye thop par shok!
SilenceMonkey
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Re: Thinking

Post by SilenceMonkey »

“In zazen, leave your front door and your back door open. Let thoughts come and go. Just don't serve them tea.”

--Suzuki Roshi, "Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind"
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Ayu
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Re: Thinking

Post by Ayu »

Mindful Entity wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 6:39 pm Hello!
I started meditating a couple years ago to ease my depression and anxiety. In the beginning I used to forcibly push away my thoughts because my view on meditation was that of being in a state of bliss. As time went on I came to the realization that by not accepting my thoughts I only make things worse. I am new to thoughts and would like to learn more about it.
My question is: How do you use meditation for constructive and analytical thinking and how do you apply it in your relationships, work and in life overall?
Thank you!
I think, you've had a very important insight here already.

IMHO, meditation doesn't work actively like any tool. It's not a hammer or a shovel. If any tool it's rather a broom.
But I think, meditation works more like endless water dropping. You'll proceed irresistibly as long as you continue with only little steps.
microbodhi
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Re: Thinking

Post by microbodhi »

Mindful Entity wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 6:39 pm Hello!
I started meditating a couple years ago to ease my depression and anxiety. In the beginning I used to forcibly push away my thoughts because my view on meditation was that of being in a state of bliss. As time went on I came to the realization that by not accepting my thoughts I only make things worse. I am new to thoughts and would like to learn more about it.
My question is: How do you use meditation for constructive and analytical thinking and how do you apply it in your relationships, work and in life overall?
Thank you!
Its a very nice question and one that is practical. If your meditation practice is going well or how it should be it will help you to get more insights into your life, what works what doesnt, there are a few or sometimes to many imo within the buddhist traditions that are looking for fantastic experiences, samadhi or initiation into the highest tantra, the great illumination or siddhis, to put it bluntly these are all just fatantises and cravings and no good will come from the practice if these are the goals, this is not say that there is such a thing as samadhi, or great benefits in tantra, siddhis and a great illumination but seeking them as goals of practice is often just a delusion , just craving and desire, one of the root causes of suffering.

Start and maintain keeping things simple, the buddha speaks about kusala and akusala, dropping what is not wholesome and cultivating what is wholesome, you will become aware of this in your meditation practice, seeing what works and what does not work, this builds up natural insight and will bring harmony with calm and insight with one another, samatha and vipassana are not two separate qualities .

Gradually things will become more profound in a very natural way, keep the basics as the firmest foundation, let go of what comes up in your mind as unwholesome, also sometimes study it, be brave even if it is uncomfortable and what are the causes and conditions, what is arising as unwholesome is based on greed, anger or ill will and wrong self view and build on kusala or the wholesome things that come into your mind, through reflection, things will naturally start to work things out and unfold naturally. Buddhist way and dharma is very much a way of life, not just a meditation or technique or memorising sutra that very few know the correct translations, this can add to becoming a waste of time and effort and just an avoidance of facing the real issues.
Last edited by microbodhi on Sun Feb 21, 2021 12:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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avisitor
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Re: Thinking

Post by avisitor »

Queequeg wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 7:52 pmThere are many approaches to meditation that promise better thinking applied to relationships and work. Transcendental Meditation, for instance.

That's not what Buddhists generally do. To put it sort of humorously, we're not practicing to get better at samsara. We're looking to end samsara.

One of the more basic formulations framing meditation practice are the two practices of shamatha and vipashyana. Shamatha is the practice of profoundly stilling the mind. Vipashyana is a practice of observing the mind. You still the mind so that it can be observed.

Side effects may include being able to navigate life more skillfully and just generally being happy.
Sorry for the tangent, ...
There is something profoundly disturbing in those words.
Like a separation between mind and what observes mind??
All the while, I have had the feeling that the practice is for a dropping off of mind??
To find that which is not an emanation of the aggregates of this body??

Back to the topic a hand, ... IMO ...
The OP wishes to learn how to use the practice to improve his life in general
And, I believe that the benefits of practice comes from the practice
And, life will improve as the practice improves
That there is no special technique to apply towards living life
Sort of like, one gets better at sports as one continues to play sports (ie, table tennis).
There would be arguments that applying certain principles would improve the playing of sports.
But, ultimately it is the practice that gives the best results.
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Queequeg
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Re: Thinking

Post by Queequeg »

avisitor wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 6:23 pm
Queequeg wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 7:52 pmThere are many approaches to meditation that promise better thinking applied to relationships and work. Transcendental Meditation, for instance.

That's not what Buddhists generally do. To put it sort of humorously, we're not practicing to get better at samsara. We're looking to end samsara.

One of the more basic formulations framing meditation practice are the two practices of shamatha and vipashyana. Shamatha is the practice of profoundly stilling the mind. Vipashyana is a practice of observing the mind. You still the mind so that it can be observed.

Side effects may include being able to navigate life more skillfully and just generally being happy.
Sorry for the tangent, ...
There is something profoundly disturbing in those words.
Like a separation between mind and what observes mind??
All the while, I have had the feeling that the practice is for a dropping off of mind??
To find that which is not an emanation of the aggregates of this body??
I like to be profoundly disturbing. }:)

But not sure why that is disturbing. I think I offered a pretty standard description of Shamatha and Vipashyana, about as basic as Buddhist meditation gets.

If your mind drops off... what's left?

What do you mean by "emanation of the aggregates of this body?"

If you're using that term aggregates in the Buddhist technical sense, that characterization doesn't make sense. The so called "aggregates" ie. skandha, are form, feeling, perceptions, mental formations and consciousness. They are not described as emanating anything. When they come together, a being arises. If anything, we could say we are an emanation of the deepest levels of consciousness. Saying we're emanations of this body sounds dangerously like materialism...
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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avisitor
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Re: Thinking

Post by avisitor »

Queequeg wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 6:32 pm
avisitor wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 6:23 pm Sorry for the tangent, ...
There is something profoundly disturbing in those words.
Like a separation between mind and what observes mind??
All the while, I have had the feeling that the practice is for a dropping off of mind??
To find that which is not an emanation of the aggregates of this body??
I like to be profoundly disturbing. }:)
If your mind drops off... what's left?
What can not be hidden. The sun, the moon, the truth.
What do you mean by "emanation of the aggregates of this body?"
Your mind comes from the collection of thing we call the body. When the body dies, this mind dies too. Think about drinking alcohol. It affects the body. And, so it affects this mind.

If you're using that term aggregates in the Buddhist technical sense, that characterization doesn't make sense. The so called "aggregates" ie. skandha, are form, feeling, perceptions, mental formations and consciousness. They are not described as emanating anything. When they come together, a being arises. If anything, we could say we are an emanation of the deepest levels of consciousness. Saying we're emanations of this body sounds dangerously like materialism...
Emanations are not material. Ideas and thoughts do not have a physical substance. Consciousness is not something we can put a finger on. Yet, we recognize it in others, animals, insects, people.

I realize you and many others have more knowledge of the sutras and techniques. And everything else. I know nothing when compared to you or them. But, I breathe and feel ... am alive.

Sorry to have wasted your time on such trivial thoughts.
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LastLegend
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Re: Thinking

Post by LastLegend »

Consciousness is what tells you from me but that means self. In fact, we don’t need no knowledge of nothing other than what consciousness is and how to transcend it. Bodhidharma said to pointing the heart of man. This heart is natural Maha prajna.
It’s eye blinking.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Thinking

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

avisitor wrote: Thu Mar 04, 2021 6:44 amYour mind comes from the collection of thing we call the body. When the body dies, this mind dies too.
avisitor wrote: Thu Mar 04, 2021 6:44 am Ideas and thoughts do not have a physical substance.
Which is it?

By the time you are 21 years old, you have gone through 3 entirely different bodies...In other words, cells. Nothing remains of the body that existed when you were a child. That’s all dead and replaced.
Yet, can you recall experiences that occurred before you were 7 years old, 14 years old, 21years old?
Everything in the body can be an object of awareness, but none of it is awareness (consciousness).
Ultimately you will find that it’s the mind that creates the experience of “me” or “self” rather than there being a “self” produced by the physical body that has the experience of “me”.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
Natan
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Re: Thinking

Post by Natan »

Mindful Entity wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 6:39 pm Hello!
I started meditating a couple years ago to ease my depression and anxiety. In the beginning I used to forcibly push away my thoughts because my view on meditation was that of being in a state of bliss. As time went on I came to the realization that by not accepting my thoughts I only make things worse. I am new to thoughts and would like to learn more about it.
My question is: How do you use meditation for constructive and analytical thinking and how do you apply it in your relationships, work and in life overall?
Thank you!
Letting things slide.
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Queequeg
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Re: Thinking

Post by Queequeg »

avisitor wrote: Thu Mar 04, 2021 6:44 am
If your mind drops off... what's left?
What can not be hidden. The sun, the moon, the truth.
Who or what is the discerning perceiver who sees truth? Who sees what is not hidden? That's not not a description of the mind dropping off as best I can tell. Maybe it is. Can you elaborate?
What do you mean by "emanation of the aggregates of this body?"
Your mind comes from the collection of thing we call the body. When the body dies, this mind dies too. Think about drinking alcohol. It affects the body. And, so it affects this mind.
Spoken like a materialist. You are a person of our time and place.

Emanations are not material. Ideas and thoughts do not have a physical substance. Consciousness is not something we can put a finger on. Yet, we recognize it in others, animals, insects, people.
As PVS points out, you can't have it both ways. Is Consciousness a function of matter or not?
I realize you and many others have more knowledge of the sutras and techniques. And everything else. I know nothing when compared to you or them. But, I breathe and feel ... am alive.

Sorry to have wasted your time on such trivial thoughts.
Not trivial unless you say so. If you tell us you're just farting into the WWW, then I guess we have to take your word for that. But I don't know that's the case. I think you're just saying that out of being defensive. Sorry if I made you feel that way. You're posting on a Buddhist discussion forum, using phrases that are vaguely Buddhist ("mind drops off"), so you apparently have interest in Buddhadharma, as do the rest of us. So, we're here to discuss them. Let's do that. If you want. I made a statement that you challenged me on, and you in turn made statements I am challenging you on. Let's explore what you and I say we know.

You say you breathe and feel. This makes you "alive". What does that mean? You left it there as though that is some final conclusion that is good enough. Animals know they're alive... so...?
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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avisitor
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Re: Thinking

Post by avisitor »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Thu Mar 04, 2021 1:12 pm
avisitor wrote: Thu Mar 04, 2021 6:44 amYour mind comes from the collection of thing we call the body. When the body dies, this mind dies too.
avisitor wrote: Thu Mar 04, 2021 6:44 am Ideas and thoughts do not have a physical substance.
Which is it?
The body, when alive has the emanations of consciousness, mind, thought ideas. Those things have no physical substance. Your body does. The sky has no mind to be blue. And yet, we look at it and say the sky is blue. You stand on land and it is flat. Yet, the world is round. Which is it? Both and neither. To ask such questions you should know where your mind is???

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Thu Mar 04, 2021 1:12 pm By the time you are 21 years old, you have gone through 3 entirely different bodies...In other words, cells. Nothing remains of the body that existed when you were a child. That’s all dead and replaced.
If nothing remains then memories should not remain. All or nothing?? Of course not!!
And if three entirely different bodies exist then show them to me!
You can not show me the past. Only what is here now.
All things change.
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Thu Mar 04, 2021 1:12 pm Yet, can you recall experiences that occurred before you were 7 years old, 14 years old, 21years old?
Everything in the body can be an object of awareness, but none of it is awareness (consciousness).
Ultimately you will find that it’s the mind that creates the experience of “me” or “self” rather than there being a “self” produced by the physical body that has the experience of “me”.
If I have memories of the past then do they exist?
If they do not exist then why do the memories exist?
You wish to throw the baby out with the bath water??
The awareness you speak of .. is this mind's perception
Which, yes, comes from this body. Not permanent. Not the truth.
What are you? A body? A soul? A spirit? A ghost?
Death comes and this awareness, consciousness goes with it.

There really is no sense in debating cause it only brings more questions
You have your experiences and I have mine.
Of course, you have read the sutras and learned the teachings of the Buddha
And, done all the techniques and practices. I have not. (some yes)
I believe what I believe cause that is where I am at in my journey.
And, I have found the trip is more interesting than speeding past all the beauty on the way.
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avisitor
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Re: Thinking

Post by avisitor »

Queequeg wrote: Thu Mar 04, 2021 3:03 pm Who or what is the discerning perceiver who sees truth? Who sees what is not hidden? That's not not a description of the mind dropping off as best I can tell. Maybe it is. Can you elaborate?
I have no words to describe such things.
Spoken like a materialist. You are a person of our time and place.
Yes, can not hide what I am.
As PVS points out, you can't have it both ways. Is Consciousness a function of matter or not?
Yes, a function of matter but itself is not matter. More energy.

Not trivial unless you say so. If you tell us you're just farting into the WWW, then I guess we have to take your word for that. But I don't know that's the case. I think you're just saying that out of being defensive. Sorry if I made you feel that way. You're posting on a Buddhist discussion forum, using phrases that are vaguely Buddhist ("mind drops off"), so you apparently have interest in Buddhadharma, as do the rest of us. So, we're here to discuss them. Let's do that. If you want. I made a statement that you challenged me on, and you in turn made statements I am challenging you on. Let's explore what you and I say we know.

You say you breathe and feel. This makes you "alive". What does that mean? You left it there as though that is some final conclusion that is good enough. Animals know they're alive... so...?
Trivial cause whatever I say will make no different.
And do not wish to defend what I believe (comes from experiences and being alive)
However, if you wish to teach then I am willing to learn.
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Queequeg
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Re: Thinking

Post by Queequeg »

avisitor wrote: Thu Mar 04, 2021 3:20 pm
Queequeg wrote: Thu Mar 04, 2021 3:03 pm Who or what is the discerning perceiver who sees truth? Who sees what is not hidden? That's not not a description of the mind dropping off as best I can tell. Maybe it is. Can you elaborate?
I have no words to describe such things.
You might then consider Buddha's teachings, then. Because there are words that can be used to analyze and describe such things.
Trivial cause whatever I say will make no different.
Important enough to you that you feel compelled to post and read responses to your posts.
And do not wish to defend what I believe (comes from experiences and being alive)
However, if you wish to teach then I am willing to learn.
At this point, I don't think you're being asked to defend anything, just explain the views you've vaguely expressed.

I'm not a teacher. Just responding to you.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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