At what stage of meditation do you start to experience something really profound?

[PeterC]

Profound - going to some 'land', hearing and seeing the Buddha or devas, etc.

Never - everything we experience is just mind. Always - everything we experience is just mind.

going to some 'land', hearing and seeing the Buddha or devas

Those are just dream experiences. Some people experience them and some don't. They are not profound although then can be helpful because they can transform how we view things in a positive way (and unfortunately they can also be negative since they can stoke out egos and attachments).

Seeing directly that the mind is a sleeping Buddha might be a good thing. Or spontaneously viewing all beings as Buddhas.

Kirt

Okay, I think you can answer my original intent of this thread.

Not me. Not you.

Imagine, a hermit, a recluse, a forest dwelling, 1st century BCE monk, Mahayanist, at what stage of meditation does he start to experience something so profound that he gets the Prajnaparamita Sutra or any sutra from the Nagas? Flower Garland, Lotus, doesn't really matter. It seems to have happened hundreds of times over centuries...In terms of level, is this beyond Arahatship? Slightly below Buddhahood?

Now, going back to our modern time, still not me, still not you.

Imagine a hermit, a recluse, a cave dwelling 21st century sage in Tibet or a forest dwelling monk in Thailand. Let's say they've been doing it for 40-50 years. How come no sutras? Nothing profound. No magic, no powers, not that I'm looking for it. But the disciples of the Buddha seems to be flying or visiting other worlds either literally or in their meditative states. What happened to these phenomenon? Again, not me. Not you. Why no new sutras or revelation or a whisper from the Buddha saying "Hey, that Stephen Batchelor guy, no, I'm not for that. Just stay away from him." or "Tell Tricycle and LionsRoar I didn't approve of LSD."

You haven't spent enough time with tibetans, then. There are people revealing treasures even today. Earth treasures, not just mind treasures or pure visions.

Why aren't new sutras revealed? Teachings manifest in accordance with the needs and karma of practitioners. Perhaps we don't need more sutras? We have no shortage of sutras and of teachings. We have perhaps too many, since people get terribly confused about which ones are saying what, whether they're consistent or in contradiction, etc. At least in my practice tradition, past about the 11th or 12th century from a practice perspective you had everything you needed. Something like 500-100 years before that you had everything you needed from a philosophical perspective.

Having visions, displaying supernormal powers is actually not unknown in modern times, even today. But really nobody will ever claim that they're necessary or even particularly useful for practice or teaching. Every meditation text warns you that they are a significant potential distraction.

There's always a temptation to look back to some 'golden age' and, in so doing, ignore the achievements in the world today. There are still many amazing teachers alive today. Whether they can fly, talk to nagas, reveal sutras etc. perhaps has more to do with us than with them.

[microbodhi]

The moment you become aware of the present moment as it is with modification of mind and thought, what is profound will spontaneously and effortlessly arise.

We can also ask what is meditation and what is the practice of a technique, the two maybe very different things, one is applied and the other is spontaneous and without effort.

Its always best to start out simple, yes of course, we would all love to see multidimensional beings, meet the buddha have in-depth chat with him about the meaning of life and the source of creation the universe and its purpose and what will happen to me at death, fly in samadhi in different realms and speak exotic mystical languages, do these places even exists, myself i would say yes, but non of them are constant abiding's.

Lets try and start off somewhere simple, is not everything around us truly profound, we breath when asleep without any effort, we digest food without even knowing whats going within a vastly complex digestive system breaking down foods turning them into energy, the whole body is one microcosmic universe so complex that only a buddha knows and understands each function and its purpose and the correct way to manage it.

How profound is sunrise, or sunset, how profound is it that seeds can have within its potential a huge tree, how profound and beautiful are birds singing at dawn. We are surrounded with the profound all the time, we just need presence to notice it, its not in another realm its right here, we just need to be present, to see things as they are. Recently i was sitting in nature and a dragon fly came right up to me, was hovering around me, studying me as i was studying it, it was highly aware, the sophistication of its anatomy and movements was totally profound. How beautiful are trees, the clouds everything is profound but there is one simple ingredient that we need and that is being present, bringing the mind to silence then that profound flow of spontaneous awareness allows things to come and go without grasping. Lets not over look simplicity and think that only the profound is in another dimension ,the devas and buddhas are subtle and not disconnected from this reality we see with present moment awareness. Nature is profound, we are nature , nature is us and by noticing this we arrive at our dharma, our true nature and everything will be apparent and clear.

Simple for the simple, almost impossible for the complicated thought processes of the mind.

[Padmist]

Never - everything we experience is just mind. Always - everything we experience is just mind.



Those are just dream experiences. Some people experience them and some don't. They are not profound although then can be helpful because they can transform how we view things in a positive way (and unfortunately they can also be negative since they can stoke out egos and attachments).

Seeing directly that the mind is a sleeping Buddha might be a good thing. Or spontaneously viewing all beings as Buddhas.

Kirt

Okay, I think you can answer my original intent of this thread.

Not me. Not you.

Imagine, a hermit, a recluse, a forest dwelling, 1st century BCE monk, Mahayanist, at what stage of meditation does he start to experience something so profound that he gets the Prajnaparamita Sutra or any sutra from the Nagas? Flower Garland, Lotus, doesn't really matter. It seems to have happened hundreds of times over centuries...In terms of level, is this beyond Arahatship? Slightly below Buddhahood?

Now, going back to our modern time, still not me, still not you.

Imagine a hermit, a recluse, a cave dwelling 21st century sage in Tibet or a forest dwelling monk in Thailand. Let's say they've been doing it for 40-50 years. How come no sutras? Nothing profound. No magic, no powers, not that I'm looking for it. But the disciples of the Buddha seems to be flying or visiting other worlds either literally or in their meditative states. What happened to these phenomenon? Again, not me. Not you. Why no new sutras or revelation or a whisper from the Buddha saying "Hey, that Stephen Batchelor guy, no, I'm not for that. Just stay away from him." or "Tell Tricycle and LionsRoar I didn't approve of LSD."

You haven't spent enough time with tibetans, then. There are people revealing treasures even today. Earth treasures, not just mind treasures or pure visions.

Why aren't new sutras revealed? Teachings manifest in accordance with the needs and karma of practitioners. Perhaps we don't need more sutras? We have no shortage of sutras and of teachings. We have perhaps too many, since people get terribly confused about which ones are saying what, whether they're consistent or in contradiction, etc. At least in my practice tradition, past about the 11th or 12th century from a practice perspective you had everything you needed. Something like 500-100 years before that you had everything you needed from a philosophical perspective.

Having visions, displaying supernormal powers is actually not unknown in modern times, even today. But really nobody will ever claim that they're necessary or even particularly useful for practice or teaching. Every meditation text warns you that they are a significant potential distraction.

There's always a temptation to look back to some 'golden age' and, in so doing, ignore the achievements in the world today. There are still many amazing teachers alive today. Whether they can fly, talk to nagas, reveal sutras etc. perhaps has more to do with us than with them.

Yeah, I totally forgot that my primary text (Longchen Nyitig) is pretty contemporary.

And I totally get it that it's more "us" than them. Considering I haven't really seen some levitating monks around me. But then again, I would have expected Chinese authorities reporting of flying monks who they have a bad time capturing.

[Natan]

The word profound in buddhism has a special sense of that which liberates. So to experience something profound in meditation implies being liberated. One is liberated from destructive emotions in meditations then that is profound. One sees what wisdom means through insight then it is profound. All extra normal phenomena are predicated upon the foundation of Liberation. Buddha said specifically the greatest power is to teach and explain dharma clearly.