At what stage of meditation do you start to experience something really profound?

Discussion of meditation in the Mahayana and Vajrayana traditions.
SilenceMonkey
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Re: At what stage of meditation do you start to experience something really profound?

Post by SilenceMonkey »

At least in the ch'an tradition, there are enlightened ch'an masters that don't have such profound experiences. No siddhis. But they've awakened to emptiness and cut the cycle of samsara.
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Re: At what stage of meditation do you start to experience something really profound?

Post by Budai »

Buddha actually forbade a lot of His forest monks from showing off their Siddhis, saying that they would be no companion of His if they did. Though I think that a Buddha possesses the ability to use any useful Siddhi when applicable, or go to any Buddha Land or call upon a Powerful Bodhisattva, they may hide such powers. Attribute what you would to any Buddha that you would to Shakyamuni, even in the Lotus Sutra, and you will better understand the Buddha-field and that Buddhahood is the key to saving others out of Samsara, thr Highest key, and how.
michaeljc
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Re: At what stage of meditation do you start to experience something really profound?

Post by michaeljc »

I have been involved in Zen forums for 8 years and have always been interested in the effect of mediation on different practitioners. My conclusion is meditation effects different people in many different ways. There is no one recipe that can lead to desired outcomes.

Some people feel an immediate benefit from meditation from the beginning and don't necessarily seek profound experiences. Others go hard expecting to experience the kind of profound experiences recorded in literature. If these people are not experiencing benefit after every sit they may have a hard frustrating time ahead. We see this over again in forums "I practice so hard and nothing happens" . Then the inevitable advise flows in as much as to say " do it my way and it will work". Well, it probably wont. We are all different.

In my experience profound experiences can come but only in their own way and form. They will be nothing like what we may expect. That is what makes them special - as a memory only. What remains is hard to define. It was in the past.

First and foremost, practice is a private encounter. No teacher of teaching can do it for us. I am one that believes that books and teachers are unnecessary once one has a grounding in some simple principles of physical practice.

If I felt no benefit from meditation I would give it up. Others may like to grind away looking for a profound outcome but this is certainly not a path for me.

By benefit I don't mean pleasant experiences during sitting. The benefit comes later. Siting is neutral, nothing, no good no bad - except when the pain comes on occasions. Sit through pain.

For profound experiences: sit 3 x 40 mins/day - day after day. That's a minimum according to me experience

And posture: I'm a Zennie. The erect posture in the spine is important for a number of reasons IME. It usually has to be taught. The legs are not so important. Full lotus is great for those that can do it. But, it is not a gate to enlightenment.

But, it may not work for others

M
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oryoki
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Re: At what stage of meditation do you start to experience something really profound?

Post by oryoki »

Before I took up Zen, I did entirely my own meditation stuff; no teacher, and only few books. I achieved some unusual initial experiences that were recorded in one book I had, where there was a text on Mahamudra. The text said, that Mahamudra is similar to Zen. Because I could not find any Tibetan teacher where I lived at the time, I eventually found a Zen teacher.

I recorded my unusual experiences, and even wrote meditation instructions on how to achieve them. The instructions were intended for a beginner in meditation. I kept the written instructions which are based on my personal experience and today I put the text on Google Web Sites. The text is entitled Manipulating Prana, and mentions also all the weird stuff I experienced as the result of my initial non-Zen practice. You are welcome to read it:
https://sites.google.com/view/manipulating-prana/home
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kirtu
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Re: At what stage of meditation do you start to experience something really profound?

Post by kirtu »

Padmist wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 2:14 am Profound - going to some 'land', hearing and seeing the Buddha or devas, etc.
Never - everything we experience is just mind. Always - everything we experience is just mind.
going to some 'land', hearing and seeing the Buddha or devas
Those are just dream experiences. Some people experience them and some don't. They are not profound although then can be helpful because they can transform how we view things in a positive way (and unfortunately they can also be negative since they can stoke out egos and attachments).

Seeing directly that the mind is a sleeping Buddha might be a good thing. Or spontaneously viewing all beings as Buddhas.

Kirt
“Where do atomic bombs come from?”
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
Padmist
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Re: At what stage of meditation do you start to experience something really profound?

Post by Padmist »

kirtu wrote: Sun Jan 31, 2021 11:56 pm
Padmist wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 2:14 am Profound - going to some 'land', hearing and seeing the Buddha or devas, etc.
Never - everything we experience is just mind. Always - everything we experience is just mind.
going to some 'land', hearing and seeing the Buddha or devas
Those are just dream experiences. Some people experience them and some don't. They are not profound although then can be helpful because they can transform how we view things in a positive way (and unfortunately they can also be negative since they can stoke out egos and attachments).

Seeing directly that the mind is a sleeping Buddha might be a good thing. Or spontaneously viewing all beings as Buddhas.

Kirt

Okay, I think you can answer my original intent of this thread.

Not me. Not you.

Imagine, a hermit, a recluse, a forest dwelling, 1st century BCE monk, Mahayanist, at what stage of meditation does he start to experience something so profound that he gets the Prajnaparamita Sutra or any sutra from the Nagas? Flower Garland, Lotus, doesn't really matter. It seems to have happened hundreds of times over centuries...In terms of level, is this beyond Arahatship? Slightly below Buddhahood?

Now, going back to our modern time, still not me, still not you.

Imagine a hermit, a recluse, a cave dwelling 21st century sage in Tibet or a forest dwelling monk in Thailand. Let's say they've been doing it for 40-50 years. How come no sutras? Nothing profound. No magic, no powers, not that I'm looking for it. But the disciples of the Buddha seems to be flying or visiting other worlds either literally or in their meditative states. What happened to these phenomenon? Again, not me. Not you. Why no new sutras or revelation or a whisper from the Buddha saying "Hey, that Stephen Batchelor guy, no, I'm not for that. Just stay away from him." or "Tell Tricycle and LionsRoar I didn't approve of LSD."
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kirtu
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Re: At what stage of meditation do you start to experience something really profound?

Post by kirtu »

Padmist wrote: Mon Feb 01, 2021 2:53 am
kirtu wrote: Sun Jan 31, 2021 11:56 pm
Padmist wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 2:14 am Profound - going to some 'land', hearing and seeing the Buddha or devas, etc.
Never - everything we experience is just mind. Always - everything we experience is just mind.
going to some 'land', hearing and seeing the Buddha or devas
Those are just dream experiences. Some people experience them and some don't. They are not profound although then can be helpful because they can transform how we view things in a positive way (and unfortunately they can also be negative since they can stoke out egos and attachments).

Seeing directly that the mind is a sleeping Buddha might be a good thing. Or spontaneously viewing all beings as Buddhas.

Kirt

Okay, I think you can answer my original intent of this thread.

Not me. Not you.

Imagine, a hermit, a recluse, a forest dwelling, 1st century BCE monk, Mahayanist, at what stage of meditation does he start to experience something so profound that he gets the Prajnaparamita Sutra or any sutra from the Nagas? Flower Garland, Lotus, doesn't really matter. It seems to have happened hundreds of times over centuries...In terms of level, is this beyond Arahatship? Slightly below Buddhahood?
My main Zen teacher said early on, in a public response to this question, that when the sutras started to make sense then awakening was beginning. So this is far from Arhatship and far from Buddhahood.
Padmist wrote: Now, going back to our modern time, still not me, still not you.

Imagine a hermit, a recluse, a cave dwelling 21st century sage in Tibet or a forest dwelling monk in Thailand. Let's say they've been doing it for 40-50 years. How come no sutras? Nothing profound. No magic, no powers, not that I'm looking for it. But the disciples of the Buddha seems to be flying or visiting other worlds either literally or in their meditative states. What happened to these phenomenon? Again, not me. Not you. Why no new sutras or revelation or a whisper from the Buddha saying "Hey, that Stephen Batchelor guy, no, I'm not for that. Just stay away from him." or "Tell Tricycle and LionsRoar I didn't approve of LSD."
I don't think this really happens (well, it must happen to someone). Everyone who practices diligently gets some insight on some level. That doesn't mean that external "miracles", etc. actually happen.

Kirt
“Where do atomic bombs come from?”
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
SilenceMonkey
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Re: At what stage of meditation do you start to experience something really profound?

Post by SilenceMonkey »

Padmist wrote: Mon Feb 01, 2021 2:53 am
Imagine a hermit, a recluse, a cave dwelling 21st century sage in Tibet or a forest dwelling monk in Thailand. Let's say they've been doing it for 40-50 years. How come no sutras? Nothing profound. No magic, no powers, not that I'm looking for it. But the disciples of the Buddha seems to be flying or visiting other worlds either literally or in their meditative states. What happened to these phenomenon? Again, not me. Not you. Why no new sutras or revelation or a whisper from the Buddha saying "Hey, that Stephen Batchelor guy, no, I'm not for that. Just stay away from him." or "Tell Tricycle and LionsRoar I didn't approve of LSD."
There are many stories in Theravada tradition of Thailand and other countries of masters performing miracles. Sutras are words of Buddha Shakyamuni... but the stories of these contemporary teachers are often passed down to their students. In English all we have are accounts from students of these great masters that made their way into english publication. And many Mahayanists would probably not read these stories. (We have our own stories of tibetan masters performing miracles. Chinese tend to be a bit more tight-lipped than any other tradition when it comes to talking about powers and miracles.)

Seeing a buddha face to face is said to only come once you're on the Bodhisattva bhumis. I'd imagine that travelling to buddhalands might come under the category of "emanation." But there are many stories of meditators leaving their bodies in meditation (OBE). Tulku Urgyen wrote in Blazing Splendor of a yogi he once met who travelled to the hells in order to benefit sentient beings. He was unable to enter the vajra hell through his own power of samadhi, so he came to Tulku Urgyen to receive a certain empowerment that would allow him to do so.

I'm not sure theravadins would travel to purelands... If they did, maybe they would become mahayana practitioners. But there are Theravada traditions that call on devas for blessing in meditation. Some practitioners might see into the various heavens or even travel there spiritually.

But maybe these things aren't talked about so openly in Buddhism... It might be hard to find a straight answer, if there even is one.

Anyway... even if you hear about some practitioner with siddhi, maybe it will just be a story until you see it for yourself. Which, for most people, may be never.
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Re: At what stage of meditation do you start to experience something really profound?

Post by Tata1 »

Padmist wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 2:14 am Profound - going to some 'land', hearing and seeing the Buddha or devas, etc.
Profound is to liberate 1 single thought
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Re: At what stage of meditation do you start to experience something really profound?

Post by Tata1 »

Padmist wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 9:13 pm I understand my own words just fine. Thanks.

There's no need to be condescending. And your answer is wrong so in the spirit of your tone, I would suggest that you don't know what you're talking about.
The answer he gave you was quite true. Nothing condescending about that
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kusulu
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Re: At what stage of meditation do you start to experience something really profound?

Post by kusulu »

That's a great question. I mean, rapture and bliss may or may not be seen as profound simply because they vary in degree and intensity. Or maybe one grows accustomed, builds tolerance (taking them for granted) it all depends on an individuals experience. Myself, i tend to have a flat emotional affect, so if it's not hitting me like lightening i tend not to find rapture/bliss profound.

Any one of these 3 things would be very profound if you really followed them to the end: (1) Dukkha/suffering/unsatisfactoriness of everything (2) Anicca/impermanence/transitory nature of everything (3) Anatta/No-Atman, no Self, no ego, it's just conventions/constructs/confusion. Anyone of them will eventually be proven, if you look hard enough.

I think the first time I felt that it was profound & I investigated & considered what was it that made it profound, it was very hard to put into words, it "defied discursive reasoning" e.g. there wasn't anything it could be compared to, it defied categorization by the thinking mind. "Who is is that is asking who this is?" I couldn't answer that.

I think if you have a good practice, it becomes profound as you go along. Sorry if that sounds vague.
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Re: At what stage of meditation do you start to experience something really profound?

Post by avisitor »

Practice or sitting meditation really has no goal
And to ask questions like at what stage does one experience something, it is like not really understanding the purpose of meditation
Profound experiences can be come upon in daily life
Lost of a loved one, Car accident, Taking a pill, Food poisoning, Birth of a baby, Weddings, Funerals, etc

What comes from meditation?
Conservation of energy, Focus, Clarity, Awareness, Presence of mind, Concentration, etc

If you are looking for enlightenment, kensho, satori???
Those things do not come from meditation
And yet with out practice, there comes little chance of those things

So, practice is to just sit as the Buddha sat.
Well, that was what I was taught
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Re: At what stage of meditation do you start to experience something really profound?

Post by Arnoud »

I think this applies to your original question:

The Ten Corruptions of Insight that can arise from meditation & their Danger--From Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo

1. Obhasa: a bright light that enables you to see places both far and near.

2. Ñana: knowledge enabling you to know in an uncanny way things you never before knew, such as pubbenivasanussati-ñana, the ability to remember previous lifetimes.

Even knowledge of this sort, though, can mislead you. If you learn good things about your past, you may get pleased.

If you learn bad or undesirable things about your past, you may get displeased.

Cutupapata-ñana: Sometimes you may learn how people and other living beings die and are reborn — knowing, for instance, where they are reborn when they have died from this world — which can cause you to become engrossed in the various things you come to know and see.

As you become more and more engrossed, false knowledge can step in, and yet you still assume it to be true.

3. Piti: a sense of physical and mental fullness and satisfaction, full to the point of infatuation — physically satisfied to the point where you don't feel hunger or thirst, heat or cold; mentally satisfied to the point where you become engrossed and oblivious, lazy and lethargic, perhaps deciding that you've already achieved the goal.

What's actually happened is that you've swallowed your mood down whole.

4. Passaddhi: The body is at peace and the mind serene, to the point where you don't want to encounter anything in the world. You see the world as being unpeaceful and you don't want to have anything to do with it.

Actually, if the mind is really at peace, everything in the world will also be at peace.

People who are addicted to a sense of peace won't want to do any physical work or even think about anything, because they're stuck on that sense of peace as a constant preoccupation.

5. Sukha: Once there's peace, there's a sense of physical and mental pleasure and ease; and once there's a great deal of pleasure, you come to hate pain, seeing pleasure as something good and pain as something bad.

Your view of things falls into two parts. (Actually, pleasure doesn't come from anywhere else but pain.) Pain is the same thing as pleasure: When pleasure arises, pain is its shadow; when pain arise, pleasure is its shadow.

As long as you don't understand this, you give rise to a kind of defilement — again, you swallow your mood down whole.

When a deep and arresting sense of relaxation, stillness, ease, or freedom from disturbance arises, you get engrossed in that feeling.

What has happened is that you're simply stuck on a pleasing mental state.

6. Adhimokkha: being disposed to believing that your knowledge and the things you know are true.

Once "true" takes a stance, "false" is bound to enter the picture. True and false go together, i.e., they're one and the same thing.

For example, suppose we ask, "Is Nai Daeng at home?" and someone answers, "No, he isn't." If Nai Daeng really exists and he's really at home, then when that person says, "He's not at home," he's lying. But if Nai Daeng doesn't exist, that person can't lie. Thus, true and false are one and the same...

7. Paggaha: excessive persistence, leading to restlessness. You're simply fastened on your preoccupation and too strongly focused on your goal...

8. Upatthana: being obsessed with a particular item you've come to know or see, refusing to let it go.

9. Upekkha: indifference, not wanting to meet with anything, be aware of anything, think about anything, or figure anything out; assuming that you've let go completely. Actually, though, this is a misunderstanding of that very mental moment.

10. Nikanti: being content with your various preoccupations, simply attached to the things you experience or see.

All of these things, if we aren't wise to them, can corrupt the heart. So, as meditators, we should attend to them and reflect on them until we understand them thoroughly.

From Basic Themes
http://www.dhammatalks.org/…/BasicTheme ... atises)_12… (Revised version)

Also, Termas being revealed are definitely what you mentioned in your last post regarding the Tathagatagarbhas Sutras and the Nagas. That still happens probably daily.
Further, Tsultrim Allione has a rock with a thumb print one of her teachers made right in front of her in Colorado.
Maybe no one can fly, and maybe that was never possible anyway, but people still get realized, up to and including Phowa Chenpo.
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Re: At what stage of meditation do you start to experience something really profound?

Post by Natan »

Padmist wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 2:14 am Profound - going to some 'land', hearing and seeing the Buddha or devas, etc.
This part is not the most profound. But you should read about nimitta.
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Re: At what stage of meditation do you start to experience something really profound?

Post by kusulu »

SilenceMonkey wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 4:50 am At least in the ch'an tradition, there are enlightened ch'an masters that don't have such profound experiences. No siddhis. But they've awakened to emptiness and cut the cycle of samsara.
How is it then that a Dragon can be heard singing in a withered tree?
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kusulu
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Re: At what stage of meditation do you start to experience something really profound?

Post by kusulu »

kusulu wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 8:38 pm
SilenceMonkey wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 4:50 am At least in the ch'an tradition, there are enlightened ch'an masters that don't have such profound experiences. No siddhis. But they've awakened to emptiness and cut the cycle of samsara.
How is it then that a Dragon can be heard singing in a withered tree?

The Dharma is Profound, full of profundity, overflowing with profundity.
SilenceMonkey
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Re: At what stage of meditation do you start to experience something really profound?

Post by SilenceMonkey »

kusulu wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 8:38 pm
SilenceMonkey wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 4:50 am At least in the ch'an tradition, there are enlightened ch'an masters that don't have such profound experiences. No siddhis. But they've awakened to emptiness and cut the cycle of samsara.
How is it then that a Dragon can be heard singing in a withered tree?
Not sure what this is a reference to... But some chan masters have siddhi. I was just saying that it's taught in chan that siddhi is unnecessary to be liberated from samsara. And a number of chan masters don't have siddhi...
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kusulu
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Re: At what stage of meditation do you start to experience something really profound?

Post by kusulu »

But really, the best stage of meditation is the one you have. Occupy it fully, stay right there where you are at.
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Re: At what stage of meditation do you start to experience something really profound?

Post by Tata1 »

What do you prefer, 100 years of bliss or one instant of nature of mind?
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Re: At what stage of meditation do you start to experience something really profound?

Post by LastLegend »

Supposed you can hear people’s mind, how are you are able to help them?
It’s eye blinking.
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