Any dream yoga practitioners here?

Discussion of meditation in the Mahayana and Vajrayana traditions.
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anagarika
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Any dream yoga practitioners here?

Post by anagarika »

Hello my noble friends,

I hope this thread is posted in the right section. I was wondering if there are any long-term dream yoga practitioners on this forum who wouldn´t mind to share their experience with this practice (to the extent they deem suitable for public discussion, of course). Unfortunately, I find literally no indication of any kind of sleep/dream practice in Theravada. I am doing my best to stick to my daily meditation routines, but sometimes when I have to work too much or deal with people etc. I find that my concentration is not as penetrating as when I´m on my private retreats or simply remain unburdened by duties or other obligations. However even on these days I observe that in my dreams my mind is at great ease, actually absorbed in contemplations to a degree and generally malleable. Especially when I practice brahma viharas before bedtime my dreams tend to be super serene, feature little action and are suffused with one of the 4 brahmavihara feelings.

I see great potential in this - if I were able to gain lucidity in these states, I could make them even more profound and turn this time into regular practice. Also it could be a good insurance for the days when I don´t have 2 to 3 hours to meditate when awake. I would love to hear from anyone here who is doing this practice on regular basis. Can you really turn it into something you can do (+-) every night? Do you find it more/less/just as powerful as your "normal" practice? Do you think it is a bad idea to integrate this element into my Theravada practice which does not really seem to care about dreams and sleep? How much effort did you put into mastering this?

Thank you all!

:anjali:
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Matt J
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Re: Any dream yoga practitioners here?

Post by Matt J »

There is a forum for Theravada folks, dhammawheel.com.

Well, it is not true that there is literally no dream teachings in Theravada. They just tend to be different. The teachings I received in Theravada were to continue your meditation eventually through sleep and dreams. However, such teachings tend to come through orally from teachers as opposed to being written in books.

I have found that my concentration was also not as deep and penetrating as on retreats, which is one reason I no longer practice Theravada. It strikes me as a very retreat oriented practice, in that it was quite difficult to practice outside of retreat.

I would say that dream practice (that I practice sporadically and lazily) is one of the most powerful teachers I have ever had. Simply put, you can directly realize many truths just by increasing your attention to your sleep/dream state. As with many things, what you get out depends on what you put in, and your own innate talents or lack thereof, but if you are talking about having lucid dreams, then a regular, dream oriented practice usually results in about 1-3 lucid dreams a month. A regular, dream oriented practice would be your daily meditation, plus regular dream recall, state checks, reading dream literature, etc. It sort of orients your attention in that direction.

The best book/course on this in my mind is Dream Yoga by Andrew Holocek since he has studied with both Eastern and Western masters. However, I have also found dream yoga gets better/easier if you also connect with a lineage.
anagarika wrote: Sat Jan 23, 2021 9:35 pm Hello my noble friends,

I hope this thread is posted in the right section. I was wondering if there are any long-term dream yoga practitioners on this forum who wouldn´t mind to share their experience with this practice (to the extent they deem suitable for public discussion, of course). Unfortunately, I find literally no indication of any kind of sleep/dream practice in Theravada. I am doing my best to stick to my daily meditation routines, but sometimes when I have to work too much or deal with people etc. I find that my concentration is not as penetrating as when I´m on my private retreats or simply remain unburdened by duties or other obligations. However even on these days I observe that in my dreams my mind is at great ease, actually absorbed in contemplations to a degree and generally malleable. Especially when I practice brahma viharas before bedtime my dreams tend to be super serene, feature little action and are suffused with one of the 4 brahmavihara feelings.

I see great potential in this - if I were able to gain lucidity in these states, I could make them even more profound and turn this time into regular practice. Also it could be a good insurance for the days when I don´t have 2 to 3 hours to meditate when awake. I would love to hear from anyone here who is doing this practice on regular basis. Can you really turn it into something you can do (+-) every night? Do you find it more/less/just as powerful as your "normal" practice? Do you think it is a bad idea to integrate this element into my Theravada practice which does not really seem to care about dreams and sleep? How much effort did you put into mastering this?

Thank you all!

:anjali:
"The world is made of stories, not atoms."
--- Muriel Rukeyser
anagarika
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Re: Any dream yoga practitioners here?

Post by anagarika »

Matt J wrote: Sun Jan 24, 2021 4:32 pm There is a forum for Theravada folks, dhammawheel.com.
Sure thing, I´m already registered there but I was reluctant to post this particular question on that forum. Some of the members seem to be pretty orthodox and anti-mahayana so I hope you don´t mind my appearance on this sister platform :D Besides it would never occur to me that Theravada utilizes similar practice since as you mentioned it is nowhere to be found in written sources.

Matt J wrote: Sun Jan 24, 2021 4:32 pm The teachings I received in Theravada were to continue your meditation eventually through sleep and dreams.
This is exactly my goal and it already works to an extent (I am not fully lucid, but my brain/mind definitely keeps the momentum from the waking state and goes about some sort of meditation even in sleep). It is interesting that this occurs mainly in the early stages of sleep. In later stages the brain seems to return to its more usual dreaming patterns with more action, memories and the usual dream stuff.

Of course I have read some books about the Tibetan dream yoga etc., but I´m extremely wary of mixing practices from different schools. That´s why I was curious whether there is a Theravada equivalent to this. I have had very satisfactory results with my practice so far since my life situation allows me to dedicate quite a lot of time to formal meditation + I don´t have too many family or social obligations etc. so I would like to keep it as "clean" as possible, but at the same time I don´t see how extending this to sleep could be harmful. Would you mind if I PMed you about this topic? I´ll understand if you don´t want to talk about it but unfortunately I live in a country where there are few buddhist communities and I´m rather sceptical about finding a good teacher here :/

Thanks!
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Matt J
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Re: Any dream yoga practitioners here?

Post by Matt J »

I don't know about Theravada teachers, but if you want a dream yoga teacher, you can touch base with Andrew Holocek and other dream yogis here:

https://nightclub.andrewholecek.com/

Andrew holds plenty of live sessions where you can ask questions. If you cannot afford the full access, I would reach out.

Unfortunately, I am not a teacher, but I would strongly recommend one, especially if you are going to practice intensely. Many teachers are available online these days, and many have worked in both Theravada and Vajrayana contexts.
anagarika wrote: Sun Jan 24, 2021 10:18 pm Of course I have read some books about the Tibetan dream yoga etc., but I´m extremely wary of mixing practices from different schools. That´s why I was curious whether there is a Theravada equivalent to this. I have had very satisfactory results with my practice so far since my life situation allows me to dedicate quite a lot of time to formal meditation + I don´t have too many family or social obligations etc. so I would like to keep it as "clean" as possible, but at the same time I don´t see how extending this to sleep could be harmful. Would you mind if I PMed you about this topic? I´ll understand if you don´t want to talk about it but unfortunately I live in a country where there are few buddhist communities and I´m rather sceptical about finding a good teacher here :/

Thanks!
"The world is made of stories, not atoms."
--- Muriel Rukeyser
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Kim O'Hara
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Re: Any dream yoga practitioners here?

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Inedible
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Re: Any dream yoga practitioners here?

Post by Inedible »

Wake induced lucid dreams are a good way to approach the problem. They offer a much clearer lucidity than becoming lucid from a dream already in progress. This approach has the additional benefit of becoming more comfortable with the transition point between being awake and asleep. It is useful to learn to go back and forth many times in a row so you can gain access to dreams from a much lighter level of sleep. It can feel amazing to work with a mantra in a lucid dream. The feeling of power can become intense. Also, on a side note, I have been using Reiki since 1998 and I like activating it in a lucid dream. The only problem I have is a lack of control. I tend to find that I can work hard at having experiences but when they finally do come it is always spontaneously when I'm not trying. That was something I read could happen early on in my reading and I was afraid it would happen to me, too. Maybe it would be useful to work on releasing that fear for a while, that I would never be able to do things on purpose.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Any dream yoga practitioners here?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

As soon as I realize, within a dream, that I am dreaming, I wake up.
This is probably not very helpful for dream yoga,
but I think it will be extremely useful when I enter the bardo state at the time of death.
Still, I’d like to be able to stay in a dream while consciously knowing I am dreaming.
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anagarika
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Re: Any dream yoga practitioners here?

Post by anagarika »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 3:02 pm As soon as I realize, within a dream, that I am dreaming, I wake up.
This is probably not very helpful for dream yoga,
but I think it will be extremely useful when I enter the bardo state at the time of death.
Still, I’d like to be able to stay in a dream while consciously knowing I am dreaming.
It goes without saying that this ability is very handy in our "waking" state as well ;) Basically everytime our minds drifts off without us knowing it, it´s dreaming. And if it drifts with us knowing it, it´s dreaming consciously. It´s good to wake up during the day as well, even if we can´t keep the awareness 24/7.
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mechashivaz
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Re: Any dream yoga practitioners here?

Post by mechashivaz »

I've only been able to achieve lucid dreams in which I gain full control about a dozen times in the 6-7 years that I've been consistently practicing, partial control maybe once a month or so. Certain times of the year when I'm less busy I make it a point to concentrate specially on Dream yoga teachings of both Chogyal Namkhai Norbu and Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche; also utilizing the secular lucid dreaming techniques proves useful. The most profound and longest lucid dream I had was during a consistent practice period and specifically focusing on the illusionary body. Using this body, I took inspiration from other practices and used my mental body to control the elements, basically an imaginative exercise of control elemental objects in a mentally created area, like the woods or on a mountain top, creating, destroying, manipulating. That way when I arrived in the dream I had already been practicing controlling a mentally created environment. That plus all the other teachings and tools in the box and you'll eventually get results.
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Re: Any dream yoga practitioners here?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

I haven been engaged in dream/sleep practice for 5 or 6 years now. I find that the second I let the journaling and intentional morning dream recall slide, the practice is back to square one.

Even with all things being in their place, it's a difficult practice with "success" being fairly occasional. I think just having more clarity in the dream state is a good, stable place to aim for for me.
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Matt J
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Re: Any dream yoga practitioners here?

Post by Matt J »

I find it is very helpful for sleep/waking up yoga. You can experience the dream dissolve along with the body mind, and experience a new one arise in real time.
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 3:02 pm As soon as I realize, within a dream, that I am dreaming, I wake up.
This is probably not very helpful for dream yoga,
but I think it will be extremely useful when I enter the bardo state at the time of death.
Still, I’d like to be able to stay in a dream while consciously knowing I am dreaming.
"The world is made of stories, not atoms."
--- Muriel Rukeyser
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Re: Any dream yoga practitioners here?

Post by Natan »

For me it's to be in mindfulness and catch the dream as it commences, know it's a dream and it stops in clear light.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Any dream yoga practitioners here?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Once, as I was drifting off, part of my brain went right to sleep and started dreaming, while another part of my brain, “me” the observer, was wide awake, watching it like a surreal movie. It was really weird.

Another time, just out of nowhere, in the middle of the day, a dream I’d had the night before just started to play out in my mind again, while I was wide awake. It was like recalling a movie I had recently watched. Not merely “oh I remember I had a dream and in it...” this was actually re-dreaming, like playing a dvd again, but in an awake state and not while sleeping. In real time. Also very weird.
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anagarika
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Re: Any dream yoga practitioners here?

Post by anagarika »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 7:14 pm
Another time, just out of nowhere, in the middle of the day, a dream I’d had the night before just started to play out in my mind again, while I was wide awake. It was like recalling a movie I had recently watched. Not merely “oh I remember I had a dream and in it...” this was actually re-dreaming, like playing a dvd again, but in an awake state and not while sleeping. In real time. Also very weird.
I used to have something similar back in the day when I would smoke some weed. Not as dynamic as yours experience, but I could easily recall dreams from months or even years ago to a great detail. Incredible what the mind is capable of!
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Any dream yoga practitioners here?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

anagarika wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 8:36 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 7:14 pm
Another time, just out of nowhere, in the middle of the day, a dream I’d had the night before just started to play out in my mind again, while I was wide awake. It was like recalling a movie I had recently watched. Not merely “oh I remember I had a dream and in it...” this was actually re-dreaming, like playing a dvd again, but in an awake state and not while sleeping. In real time. Also very weird.
I used to have something similar back in the day when I would smoke some weed. Not as dynamic as yours experience, but I could easily recall dreams from months or even years ago to a great detail. Incredible what the mind is capable of!
There are a few dreams whose details I can recall, but actually re-dreaming a dream, while awake, that was definitely a new one for me.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
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