Mindfulness in Combination to Breathing Meditation

Discussion of meditation in the Mahayana and Vajrayana traditions.
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FLMan
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Mindfulness in Combination to Breathing Meditation

Post by FLMan »

[Mod note:] Topic split from here: https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.p ... 30#p547330

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 5:09 am
avatamsaka3 wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 2:33 am
The kind of meditation of course is a huge deal.
Which kinds are recommended for these conditions then?
Now, what constitutes good clinical meditation and how effective it actually is are in dispute.
Any info you can share on this will go a long way to help me help others. I can research it, but it sounds like you know more.
I've never heard much about meditation for those conditions, usually just managing the condition is a significant challenge, so I doubt much real research exists, but I could be wrong.

Here's some general info:

https://consultqd.clevelandclinic.org/e ... -benefits/

Basically, for mild to moderate depression and anxiety there's some good evidence for clinically-applied mindfulness. It's also been used in substance abuse treatment - I've used it professionally in that environment. My own limited experience is that the best practices were simple focused rhythmic breathing exercises done as emotional triage - for when someone really just needs to down-regulate their nervous system due to anxiety or some event which triggers cravings, etc. Beyond that, most people won't practice on their own anyway, so there's not much point in even labeling it "meditation", even though that's what it is.

Keep in mind here, we are not talking about Buddhism in relation to these conditions, only about clinical mindfulness stuff to get people to their healthy baseline, part of which draws from Buddhist methods.
Apologies if I'm a bit off topic but is it generally considered that a relatively quiet mind is needed as a prerequisite to focusing on the breath? Almost like an order of operations, 1st mindfulness of thoughts then move onto the breath. This has been my impression but I don't know if it's true.

When I say I practice mindfulness (not sure if I'm misusing the term) I am referring to the practice of essentially allowing the mind to quiet down, paying attention to the space between the thoughts so to speak. Lately I have been trying to focus on the breath and it's very difficult. It's hard to explain but with with mindfulness I'm simmering in contentment while focusing on the breath is like rolling the windows down on a car at 100mph. It's very difficult for me to stay focused and I don't feel I'm getting anywhere. I don't want to reinforce bad habits.

Should I just keep at it, practice makes perfect kind of thing? Or should I get a bit better at mindfulness first? Am I missing something all together? Thanks in advance.
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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Mindfulness in Combination to Breathing Meditation

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

FLMan wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 8:01 am

Apologies if I'm a bit off topic but is it generally considered that a relatively quiet mind is needed as a prerequisite to focusing on the breath? Almost like an order of operations, 1st mindfulness of thoughts then move onto the breath. This has been my impression but I don't know if it's true.

Ok I'll reply here but you should understand I am not a qualified teacher of meditation at all, and am sharing based on personal experience, not credentials or skill. I'd recommend that if you don't have a teacher, get one. If for whatever reason you aren't ready for that, look up some basic meditations on Youtube from reputable teachers. Someone like Mingyur Rinpoche is a good place to start. He has a number of different videos on YouTube with different approaches.

I think every teacher is a little a different, but as far as mine go, typically meditation on breath comes first...but that is a standard approach, not really a hard and fast rule.

Meditation with something like the breath is what is called shine or shamatha with an object. Typically it comes before shamatha without an object, which is more what you are talking about in terms of watching thought, which bridges into vipaysana or insight meditation. The recipe is a little different for everyone though. The overwhelmingly common approach is to have people start with objects, until they can sustain stability without an object of focus. In my case (as one example I know about) I am a very neurotic person with lots of crazy thoughts, and an object just made me more neurotic. So, I actually started with the other form, and use objects when appropriate after consulting with teachers.
When I say I practice mindfulness (not sure if I'm misusing the term) I am referring to the practice of essentially allowing the mind to quiet down, paying attention to the space between the thoughts so to speak. Lately I have been trying to focus on the breath and it's very difficult. It's hard to explain but with with mindfulness I'm simmering in contentment while focusing on the breath is like rolling the windows down on a car at 100mph. It's very difficult for me to stay focused and I don't feel I'm getting anywhere. I don't want to reinforce bad habits.

Should I just keep at it, practice makes perfect kind of thing? Or should I get a bit better at mindfulness first? Am I missing something all together? Thanks in advance.
The breath is difficult for people due to various things. For one, the breath is not visual, it is more abstract as an object so for some concentrating on it is not easy. Secondly, we are so in our heads that many times I think beginning mediators try to force themselves to do something which is not natural to them. The best advice I was given is never to force meditation.

I don't know whether you are asking this question specifically regarding meditation from a mental health standpoint, or more generally. The approach wouldn't differ that much in a clinical setting as far as I know, to be honest. Though that one is hard to answer, because clinical meditation is a conundrum in some ways anyway.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

-Khunu Lama
avatamsaka3
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Re: Mindfulness in Combination to Breathing Meditation

Post by avatamsaka3 »

Apologies if I'm a bit off topic but is it generally considered that a relatively quiet mind is needed as a prerequisite to focusing on the breath?
The purpose of focusing on the breath is to achieve, ultimately, a state of mental unity. The prerequisites for this task that I'm familiar with are noble virtue, noble restraint of the sense faculties, noble mindfulness (here referring to the practice of the four foundations of mindfulness), abiding in a secluded place, and abandoning the five hindrances. After attaining these, the mind can be wielded to achieve samadhi. At least this is the view I've studied, and there are Mahayana sources that echo this sort of idea.
When I say I practice mindfulness (not sure if I'm misusing the term) I am referring to the practice of essentially allowing the mind to quiet down
Mindfulness, in the sources I'm familiar with, has two possible meanings. One has to do with the faculty of memory, especially with the teachings as its object. And another is just awareness of the khandas. So mindfulness, explained simply, is just awareness of what is. So allowing the mind to quiet down might be useful before a breath meditation session. But it's not necessarily mindfulness. Continual awareness of our actions and surroundings can function as a preparation method for breath meditation (noble mindfulness).
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Re: Mindfulness in Combination to Breathing Meditation

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I had always thought that meditation was allowing the mind to go quiet??
And mindfulness was keeping attention focused upon the present??
And that breathing meditation was using a tool like following breath to quiet thoughts??
That the ultimate shift was total concentration to no mind?? Not just no thoughts but no mind??
To open the mind's eye to see the whole universe??

This sort of reminds me of this story, ..
One day when a traveler came to a monk's house, the monk rose up to receive the traveler.
The traveler asked him, “What have you been doing recently?”
The monk replied, “Recently I have been practicing meditation.”

The traveler asked, “And why practice meditation?”
The monk replied, “My meditation is to obtain Buddhahood.”
Then, the traveler took a roof tile and began polishing it on a rock.

The monk asked him, “What are you doing?”
The traveler replied, “Polishing a roof tile.”

The monk asked, “Why are you polishing a roof tile?”
The traveler replied, “To make a mirror.”

The monk asked, “How can you make a mirror by polishing a tile?”
The traveler replied, “How can you become a Buddha by practicing meditation?”

So, makes me wonder what am I doing??
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Re: Mindfulness in Combination to Breathing Meditation

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

FLMan wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 8:01 am ...is it generally considered that a relatively quiet mind is needed as a prerequisite to focusing on the breath? Almost like an order of operations, 1st mindfulness of thoughts then move onto the breath. This has been my impression but I don't know if it's true.

When I say I practice mindfulness (not sure if I'm misusing the term) I am referring to the practice of essentially allowing the mind to quiet down, paying attention to the space between the thoughts so to speak. Lately I have been trying to focus on the breath and it's very difficult.


Should I just keep at it, practice makes perfect kind of thing? Or should I get a bit better at mindfulness first? Am I missing something all together? Thanks in advance.
You don’t need to develop mindfulness in order to watch the breath.
You watch the breath in order to develop mindfulness.
Count each breath
in and out as 1,
In and out as 2,
In and out as 3
...and so on, ideally 21 breaths in and out without distraction. But you can start with 8 or 10. In any case, when you reach the number, start over again. You don’t have to think the words. Just count the number.
A Thai monk I know teaches to just think “Bu—“ when inhaling, and “—ddha” (Buddha) when exhaling. No counting needed.

The distractions occur because you aren’t stimulating your mind with all kinds of other distractions. When you meditate, you see just how busy your mind is with all sorts of mental formations.

Actually, as Mingyur Rinpoche points out, watching the breath is also a distraction. But, it’s a single-focus distraction, so you can use it to bring the mind to a calm position.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
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Re: Mindfulness in Combination to Breathing Meditation

Post by Kim O'Hara »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 9:47 am
FLMan wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 8:01 am

Apologies if I'm a bit off topic but is it generally considered that a relatively quiet mind is needed as a prerequisite to focusing on the breath? Almost like an order of operations, 1st mindfulness of thoughts then move onto the breath. This has been my impression but I don't know if it's true.

Ok I'll reply here but you should understand I am not a qualified teacher of meditation at all, and am sharing based on personal experience, not credentials or skill. I'd recommend that if you don't have a teacher, get one. If for whatever reason you aren't ready for that, look up some basic meditations on Youtube from reputable teachers. Someone like Mingyur Rinpoche is a good place to start. He has a number of different videos on YouTube with different approaches.

I think every teacher is a little a different, but as far as mine go, typically meditation on breath comes first...but that is a standard approach, not really a hard and fast rule. ...
This is all good but I thought I might toss in another recommendation in case anyone likes books more than videos, as I do.
Thich Nhat Hanh's "The Miracle of Mindfulness" is a beautifully clear, no-nonsense intro to mindfulness meditation via breath meditation.
It's presented purely as practice, with hardly any religious framework, but it is based very firmly on Vietnamese Buddhist teaching and in fact there are extracts of relevant sutras at the end of the book.

:reading:
Kim
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Re: Mindfulness in Combination to Breathing Meditation

Post by kusulu »

FLMan wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 8:01 am [Mod note:] Topic split from here: https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.p ... 30#p547330

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 5:09 am
avatamsaka3 wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 2:33 am

Which kinds are recommended for these conditions then?



Any info you can share on this will go a long way to help me help others. I can research it, but it sounds like you know more.
I've never heard much about meditation for those conditions, usually just managing the condition is a significant challenge, so I doubt much real research exists, but I could be wrong.

Here's some general info:

https://consultqd.clevelandclinic.org/e ... -benefits/

Basically, for mild to moderate depression and anxiety there's some good evidence for clinically-applied mindfulness. It's also been used in substance abuse treatment - I've used it professionally in that environment. My own limited experience is that the best practices were simple focused rhythmic breathing exercises done as emotional triage - for when someone really just needs to down-regulate their nervous system due to anxiety or some event which triggers cravings, etc. Beyond that, most people won't practice on their own anyway, so there's not much point in even labeling it "meditation", even though that's what it is.

Keep in mind here, we are not talking about Buddhism in relation to these conditions, only about clinical mindfulness stuff to get people to their healthy baseline, part of which draws from Buddhist methods.
Apologies if I'm a bit off topic but is it generally considered that a relatively quiet mind is needed as a prerequisite to focusing on the breath? Almost like an order of operations, 1st mindfulness of thoughts then move onto the breath. This has been my impression but I don't know if it's true.

When I say I practice mindfulness (not sure if I'm misusing the term) I am referring to the practice of essentially allowing the mind to quiet down, paying attention to the space between the thoughts so to speak. Lately I have been trying to focus on the breath and it's very difficult. It's hard to explain but with with mindfulness I'm simmering in contentment while focusing on the breath is like rolling the windows down on a car at 100mph. It's very difficult for me to stay focused and I don't feel I'm getting anywhere. I don't want to reinforce bad habits.

Should I just keep at it, practice makes perfect kind of thing? Or should I get a bit better at mindfulness first? Am I missing something all together? Thanks in advance.
Assuming you are talking about Mindfulness Meditation, MBSR, Anapannasati (Sanskrit: आनापानस्मृति, IAST: ānāpānasmṛti) - no you don't need to quiet the mind first. You use mindful breathing to quiet the mind. Because we don't know how to quiet the mind, it's a monkey mind. Using the mind to "mind the breath" will do the trick however. You do need to find a secluded place to practice and assume the position, then pay attention first, yes. There are teachers of this method who are also clincians, that I study with, and I share a forum board with them, and they would be happy to verify my response if you're interested.
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Re: Mindfulness in Combination to Breathing Meditation

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Kim O'Hara wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 12:48 pm
This is all good but I thought I might toss in another recommendation in case anyone likes books more than videos, as I do.
Thich Nhat Hanh's "The Miracle of Mindfulness" is a beautifully clear, no-nonsense intro to mindfulness meditation via breath meditation.
It's presented purely as practice, with hardly any religious framework, but it is based very firmly on Vietnamese Buddhist teaching and in fact there are extracts of relevant sutras at the end of the book.

:reading:
Kim
Another one I would recommend is Treasury of Dharma by Geshe Rabten Rinpoche.

Virgo
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Re: Mindfulness in Combination to Breathing Meditation

Post by SilenceMonkey »

avisitor wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 2:03 am I had always thought that meditation was allowing the mind to go quiet??
And mindfulness was keeping attention focused upon the present??
And that breathing meditation was using a tool like following breath to quiet thoughts??
That the ultimate shift was total concentration to no mind?? Not just no thoughts but no mind??
To open the mind's eye to see the whole universe??

This sort of reminds me of this story, ..
One day when a traveler came to a monk's house, the monk rose up to receive the traveler.
The traveler asked him, “What have you been doing recently?”
The monk replied, “Recently I have been practicing meditation.”

The traveler asked, “And why practice meditation?”
The monk replied, “My meditation is to obtain Buddhahood.”
Then, the traveler took a roof tile and began polishing it on a rock.

The monk asked him, “What are you doing?”
The traveler replied, “Polishing a roof tile.”

The monk asked, “Why are you polishing a roof tile?”
The traveler replied, “To make a mirror.”

The monk asked, “How can you make a mirror by polishing a tile?”
The traveler replied, “How can you become a Buddha by practicing meditation?”

So, makes me wonder what am I doing??
This is an advanced zen teaching... Zen teaches a certain method of meditation by not meditating. In other traditions, such a state comes much later on the path. First it's good to learn the technique taught before abandoning it and all other forms.
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Re: Mindfulness in Combination to Breathing Meditation

Post by avisitor »

SilenceMonkey wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 7:39 pmThis is an advanced zen teaching... Zen teaches a certain method of meditation by not meditating. In other traditions, such a state comes much later on the path. First it's good to learn the technique taught before abandoning it and all other forms.
Never heard of advanced Zen teaching.
Only know of the basics.
The teachings of the Buddha, the meditation practice, and the Satori.
And each has their own pitfalls.
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Re: Mindfulness in Combination to Breathing Meditation

Post by SilenceMonkey »

avisitor wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 10:40 pm
SilenceMonkey wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 7:39 pmThis is an advanced zen teaching... Zen teaches a certain method of meditation by not meditating. In other traditions, such a state comes much later on the path. First it's good to learn the technique taught before abandoning it and all other forms.
Never heard of advanced Zen teaching.
Only know of the basics.
The teachings of the Buddha, the meditation practice, and the Satori.
And each has their own pitfalls.
The story you mentioned is telling the practitioner to throw away the basics.
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Re: Mindfulness in Combination to Breathing Meditation

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Effort is so deeply ingrained. The "ultimate meditation" such as it is involves no attempt to create a separate state or to do anything at all.

The mind is so used to doing, most seem to methods start from there out of practicality.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

-Khunu Lama
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Re: Mindfulness in Combination to Breathing Meditation

Post by avisitor »

SilenceMonkey wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 10:54 pmThe story you mentioned is telling the practitioner to throw away the basics.
The story is just a story.
What you draw from it is up to you.

If you think it is meant to tell the listener to drop the basics then that is where you are at in your journey.

For me, one can not become something one is not
One can not use this mind to become enlightened
So it must come from a different place in us .. a shift from total concentration to no mind

See the Opening poster put the title of "Mindfulness in Combination to Breathing Meditation"
He sees it as separate. I see it as the same thing.
For him, there is a combination. For me, it is not separate.
He might be better or know more than I do.
We are just at different points in our journey

You probably have heard of the two monks who came upon a woman who was trying to cross a small stream.
One monk picked her up and carried her across the small stream.
Later, the other monk asked why he did that since monks are not allowed to touch a woman.
The first monk said I left the woman at the stream. Why do you still carry her?

Makes me wonder what I am doing?
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