Formless shamatha + shamatha w/o object

Discussion of meditation in the Mahayana and Vajrayana traditions.
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Damchö_Dorje
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Formless shamatha + shamatha w/o object

Post by Damchö_Dorje »

First, are formless shamatha and shamatha without an object the same practice?

What is the relationship of this kind of shamatha to nonmeditation?
Jesse
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Re: Formless shamatha + shamatha w/o object

Post by Jesse »

The formless meditations have objects, they simply become subtler and subtler, and eventually reach a point where the object is so fine you could really question whether there's an actual object at all.

Eventually in the Jhanas, you would reach the limits of perception, at that point.. not only is there no subject/object, there isn't any 'thing' one could use as an object.. as all perception ceases altogether.

Shamatha without an object is more or less just remaining open. Your concentration itself sort of becomes the object. You rest in concentration, in detachment. Eventually going on to rest in the realization of emptiness.

I'm sure I butchered the description,.. If you want a better description you could simply purchase a book on the subject, or maybe someone else could chime in with a more detailed description.
Image
Thus shall ye think of all this fleeting world:
A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream;
A flash of lightning in a summer cloud,
A flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream.
KC:
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Re: Formless shamatha + shamatha w/o object

Post by KC: »

Damchö_Dorje wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 3:52 amWhat is the relationship of this kind of shamatha to nonmeditation?
Yoiks!

Short answer, long answer, brilliant answer ... there are tons of essays out on the web. But, perhaps knowing what the words and terms refer to is most important?

Kinda like something from Sound of Music: the beginning is a very good place to start!

--KC:

p.s. 2 or 3 very short sessions in a day is far more meaningful than weeks of scholasticism. It's called "practice" because it's about the doing ... familiarity with the movement of mind, if you will. With even a bit of experience ("Just sit" is profound Zen!) whatever you read will make more sense.
Malcolm
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Re: Formless shamatha + shamatha w/o object

Post by Malcolm »

Damchö_Dorje wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 3:52 am First, are formless shamatha and shamatha without an object the same practice?

What is the relationship of this kind of shamatha to nonmeditation?
You need to indicate where you are taking thus terminology from.
KC:
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Re: Formless shamatha + shamatha w/o object

Post by KC: »

KC: wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 8:00 am
Damchö_Dorje wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 3:52 amWhat is the relationship of this kind of shamatha to nonmeditation?
Kinda like something from Sound of Music: the beginning is a very good place to start!
[...]
2 or 3 very short sessions in a day is far more meaningful than weeks of scholasticism. It's called "practice" because it's about the doing ...
I really feel the need to emphasize keeping it simple.

The theoreticals are practically endless, and at the level of advanced teachings the various schools with their various interpretations and various priorities offer a practically endless set of conceptual constructs. But the key, at the risk of being over-simple, is to do as Gautama did: sit!

Whatever practice you do, however little and however short, will give you a base of experience as you move forward into theory and abstractions.

p.s. FWIW I did 4yrs of clinical psychology; academic understanding of cognition is entirely consonant with abhidharma!
master of puppets
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Re: Formless shamatha + shamatha w/o object

Post by master of puppets »

KC: wrote: Wed Feb 09, 2022 12:03 am
Whatever practice you do, however little and however short, will give you a base of experience as you move forward into theory and abstractions.
👍
Damchö_Dorje
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Re: Formless shamatha + shamatha w/o object

Post by Damchö_Dorje »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 1:21 pm
Damchö_Dorje wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 3:52 am First, are formless shamatha and shamatha without an object the same practice?

What is the relationship of this kind of shamatha to nonmeditation?
You need to indicate where you are taking thus terminology from.
On this forum, I have usually seen the term nonmeditation in connection with Mahamudra just combing through old posts. Formless shamatha I have hardly come across at all, but it's a term I've seen used on this forum as well.
Malcolm
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Re: Formless shamatha + shamatha w/o object

Post by Malcolm »

Damchö_Dorje wrote: Wed Feb 09, 2022 3:22 pm
Malcolm wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 1:21 pm
Damchö_Dorje wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 3:52 am First, are formless shamatha and shamatha without an object the same practice?

What is the relationship of this kind of shamatha to nonmeditation?
You need to indicate where you are taking thus terminology from.
On this forum, I have usually seen the term nonmeditation in connection with Mahamudra just combing through old posts. Formless shamatha I have hardly come across at all, but it's a term I've seen used on this forum as well.
There is object-oriented śamatha, when one uses an outer object. Objectless śamatha is when you focus on a mental image, sometimes called a "nimitta." "Formless" śamatha is a western term that as far as I know has no Tibetan correlate.

Nonmeditation means that one has reached a stage of practice where there is no distinction between equipoise and post-equipoise, buddhahood, basically.
Damchö_Dorje
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Re: Formless shamatha + shamatha w/o object

Post by Damchö_Dorje »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Feb 09, 2022 4:44 pmNonmeditation means that one has reached a stage of practice where there is no distinction between equipoise and post-equipoise, buddhahood, basically.
Hi again. So with the four yogas in Mahamudra, is the last understood to be what you're discussing here (the result, buddhahood)? If so, that's very intriguing: I hadn't realized that those yogas were understood as progressive stages and considered attainments.
Malcolm
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Re: Formless shamatha + shamatha w/o object

Post by Malcolm »

Damchö_Dorje wrote: Thu Feb 10, 2022 5:55 pm
Malcolm wrote: Wed Feb 09, 2022 4:44 pmNonmeditation means that one has reached a stage of practice where there is no distinction between equipoise and post-equipoise, buddhahood, basically.
Hi again. So with the four yogas in Mahamudra, is the last understood to be what you're discussing here (the result, buddhahood)? If so, that's very intriguing: I hadn't realized that those yogas were understood as progressive stages and considered attainments.
In Mahāmudra, yes, they are progressive.
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