Highest form of meditation?

Discussion of meditation in the Mahayana and Vajrayana traditions.
reiun
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Re: Highest form of meditation?

Post by reiun »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 3:39 am
reiun wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 2:40 am Basis and result are both dynamic, not static.
That does matter. One is cause; the other, result.
The path is actualization
.

Yes, but that actualization is limited and impaired by the amount of traces of obscuration of affliction and knowledge one possesses. Buddhas are not limited or impaired in this way. The way they achieve this matters. Therefor, the highest practice is the attainment of buddhahood. That has requisites.
Actualizatuon of Buddhahood is not limited by anything.

Per the Heart Sutra, "Attainment too is sunyata", and not the highest practice.

Again, per Ox-herding Pictures, tenth: "Entering the Marketplace with Helping Hands", on behalf of all sentient beings, is the actualized highest practice.
Be Fully Alive
SilenceMonkey
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Re: Highest form of meditation?

Post by SilenceMonkey »

reiun wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 2:48 am Because I believe achieving buddhahood is not the highest practice. Actualization of buddhahood, imo, is.
Maybe you mean that if you have to work to achieve buddhahood, it's not the highest practice; but buddhahood itself, ie. A Buddha's mind, is the highest... ?
SilenceMonkey
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Re: Highest form of meditation?

Post by SilenceMonkey »

Crazywisdom wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 11:43 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 12:57 pm
Bristollad wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 9:40 am
I don't want to intrude but personally, I don't understand how you can make a distinction between achieving Buddhahood and actualisation of Buddhahood. A buddha without effort continually works for the benefit of all sentient beings, that's what achieving Buddhahood means...
I tried to explain that, but to no avail.
Buddhahood is not achieved, remember? Buddhahood is spontaneous beneficial activities of body, speech and mind.
From the perspective of sentient beings, Buddhahood is achieved. From the perspective of a Buddha, nothing is achieved. :meditate:
Crazywisdom
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Re: Highest form of meditation?

Post by Crazywisdom »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 1:43 am
Crazywisdom wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 11:43 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 12:57 pm

I tried to explain that, but to no avail.
Buddhahood is not achieved, remember? Buddhahood is spontaneous beneficial activities of body, speech and mind.
Sure it is. There is a difference between the basis and the result. The basis is called the basis because it’s nature has not been realized. That’s what the path is for. Even though these three things are just the same in suchness, the result does not happen without the path. That’s just the way it is. Just observe yourself.
Base, path and result are indivisible, right? Tilopa said you've fully traversed the path when you see no path
Malcolm
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Re: Highest form of meditation?

Post by Malcolm »

reiun wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 4:37 am Actualizatuon of Buddhahood is not limited by anything.

So, right now you have no limitations?
"Death stands before all who are born."
— Ācārya Aśvaghoṣa
Malcolm
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Re: Highest form of meditation?

Post by Malcolm »

Crazywisdom wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 10:35 am Base, path and result are indivisible, right?
From the perspective of suchness, but not from the perspective of a person, who has not abandoned what is to be abandoned and has not realized what is to be realized. That means us.
"Death stands before all who are born."
— Ācārya Aśvaghoṣa
Crazywisdom
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Re: Highest form of meditation?

Post by Crazywisdom »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 12:55 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 10:35 am Base, path and result are indivisible, right?
From the perspective of suchness, but not from the perspective of a person, who has not abandoned what is to be abandoned and has not realized what is to be realized. That means us.
Abandon what? Vajrayana doesn't abandon anything.
Malcolm
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Re: Highest form of meditation?

Post by Malcolm »

Crazywisdom wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 2:01 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 12:55 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 10:35 am Base, path and result are indivisible, right?
From the perspective of suchness, but not from the perspective of a person, who has not abandoned what is to be abandoned and has not realized what is to be realized. That means us.
Abandon what? Vajrayana doesn't abandon anything.
We are not really discussing Vajrayāna here, but rather, common Mahāyāna. But even in Vajrayāna, one still abandons the two obscurations, which is necessary for attaining the two kāyas. What we don't abandon in Vajrayāna is sense objects, which are used in the path of transformation when we are connected with that method through ripening empowerments and liberating instructions, such as sleeping yogas, waking yogas, washing yogas, eating yogas, yoga of passion, yoga of creation, completion, and so on.
"Death stands before all who are born."
— Ācārya Aśvaghoṣa
Crazywisdom
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Re: Highest form of meditation?

Post by Crazywisdom »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 4:18 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 2:01 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 12:55 pm

From the perspective of suchness, but not from the perspective of a person, who has not abandoned what is to be abandoned and has not realized what is to be realized. That means us.
Abandon what? Vajrayana doesn't abandon anything.
We are not really discussing Vajrayāna here, but rather, common Mahāyāna. But even in Vajrayāna, one still abandons the two obscurations.
Also a gloss. They are seen as prajna
Malcolm
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Re: Highest form of meditation?

Post by Malcolm »

Crazywisdom wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 4:19 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 4:18 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 2:01 pm
Abandon what? Vajrayana doesn't abandon anything.
We are not really discussing Vajrayāna here, but rather, common Mahāyāna. But even in Vajrayāna, one still abandons the two obscurations.
Also a gloss. They are seen as prajna
Not a gloss. The two obscurations are something to be purified in Vajrayāna. That does not mean they substantially exist. For example, Śākyamitra's Mahāmudrāyogāvatārapiṇḍārtha it states, "After migrating beings complete the accumulation of merit, they completely abandon the great mass of the two obscurations." Or Ratnarakṣita's commentary on the Laghusamvara, which states, "Gradually abandoning the two obscurations and accomplishing mahamudra to serve all migrating beings is the stated purpose."་ Even Tilopa states in his Mahāmudropadeśa:

For example, though darkness accumulates for a thousand eons,
the mass of darkness is dispelled by a single lamp;
likewise, a moment of the luminosity of one's mind
will dispel all misdeeds and obscurations gathered for an eon.


So, while one can certainly argue over method, one cannot argue that in order to attain buddhahood, one must abandon or remove the two obscurations.

Naropa, in his Sekkodeṣa commentary on the empowerments of Kālacakra, also discusses the need to abandon the two obscurations. In fact, he discusses four obscurations there, the usual two, plus obscurations of māra and samapatti.

Frankly, you are just not going to find Indian masters who negate the necessity of abandoning the two obscurations and gathering the two accumulations. Even in the Dzogchen tradition, this is necessary, as Khenpo Ngachung points out. The means may be different but the necessity is still there.
"Death stands before all who are born."
— Ācārya Aśvaghoṣa
Crazywisdom
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Re: Highest form of meditation?

Post by Crazywisdom »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 4:59 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 4:19 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 4:18 pm

We are not really discussing Vajrayāna here, but rather, common Mahāyāna. But even in Vajrayāna, one still abandons the two obscurations.
Also a gloss. They are seen as prajna
Not a gloss. The two obscurations are something to be purified in Vajrayāna. That does not mean they substantially exist. For example, Śākyamitra's Mahāmudrāyogāvatārapiṇḍārtha it states, "After migrating beings complete the accumulation of merit, they completely abandon the great mass of the two obscurations." Or Ratnarakṣita's commentary on the Laghusamvara, which states, "Gradually abandoning the two obscurations and accomplishing mahamudra to serve all migrating beings is the stated purpose."་ Even Tilopa states in his Mahāmudropadeśa:

For example, though darkness accumulates for a thousand eons,
the mass of darkness is dispelled by a single lamp;
likewise, a moment of the luminosity of one's mind
will dispel all misdeeds and obscurations gathered for an eon.


So, while one can certainly argue over method, one cannot argue that in order to attain buddhahood, one must abandon or remove the two obscurations.

Naropa, in his Sekkodeṣa commentary on the empowerments of Kālacakra, also discusses the need to abandon the two obscurations. In fact, he discusses four obscurations there, the usual two, plus obscurations of māra and samapatti.

Frankly, you are just not going to find Indian masters who negate the necessity of abandoning the two obscurations and gathering the two accumulations. Even in the Dzogchen tradition, this is necessary, as Khenpo Ngachung points out. The means may be different but the necessity is still there.
I know all this. But the use of the word abandon doesn't quite work in pith instructions. Remember ChNN saying there are no two accumulations only one? No two wisdoms just one? You can't wake up one morning and decide to abandon ignorance and expect it to be gone. Once the nature of mind is shown where did ignorance go? Then can you pick it back up? You can't abandon English. You can spend your life in China but the moment you pick up the New York Times you will read fine, even if you abandoned English. If you love this word abandon, how does abandoning happen? Does the method show here is your ignorance, now put that down; Here is your wisdom, pick that up? No. One is taught to see within. When you turn on a light was darkness removed? When you turn it off did you put the darkness back from where you put it? Mara just means death and samapatti just means conceptual samadhi. Day one of Ganga Mahamudra. The point is wisdom is not coming or going and neither is ignorance. In fact that's the whole liberation point in a nutshell.
Last edited by Crazywisdom on Sat Aug 07, 2021 5:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Malcolm
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Re: Highest form of meditation?

Post by Malcolm »

Crazywisdom wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 5:18 pm I know all this. But the use of the word abandon doesn't quite work in pith instructions.
To abandon is spong. Spong is from prahāhāṇa. n. relinquishing , abandoning , avoiding

Are you giving pith instructions here? Is that what you are doing?
"Death stands before all who are born."
— Ācārya Aśvaghoṣa
Crazywisdom
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Re: Highest form of meditation?

Post by Crazywisdom »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 7:15 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 5:18 pm I know all this. But the use of the word abandon doesn't quite work in pith instructions.
To abandon is spong. Spong is from prahāhāṇa. n. relinquishing , abandoning , avoiding

Are you giving pith instructions here? Is that what you are doing?
Are you teaching tantra? What's the point if asking this? AFAIK the point is made in sutras, like the Prajnaparamita Hridaya. Easy to seem right with a quote or a name. Conveniently shifting from one modus to another.
Last edited by Crazywisdom on Sat Aug 07, 2021 7:25 pm, edited 4 times in total.
choengweevictor
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Re: Highest form of meditation?

Post by choengweevictor »

Vipassana meditation taught by the Buddha himself i think is the best form.
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FiveSkandhas
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Re: Highest form of meditation?

Post by FiveSkandhas »

I still hold that it is a matter of upaya.

But if forced at gunpoint to identify a truly sublime form of meditation, I would say it is not a particular type of meditation per se but rather the state that pertains when your practice becomes seamlessly integrated with all aspects of your life. When there is no longer a wall between "practice time" and the secular grind, but when the two become one. When Dogen's Zazen leaves the cushion and enters the kitchen and the hallways, so that carrot-chopping Zen and floor-polishing Zen become simple extensions of mat-sitting Zen. When your body comes to say the Nenbutsu with each breath effortlessly and without the slightest taint of self-power, heart pumping in synch with expanding lungs and endless chanting as a total and ceaseless embodiment of the Name as you move through daily life. When you achieve absolute non-retroression and each moment is saturated with non-conceptual cognition of Shunyata manifested in every sensory input and all stirring of internal thought. When the original unity of the object sought and that which seeks becomes almost humorously obvious and marvelously abiding at all times.

And so on.

When that fusion of path, result, and general experience kicks in as a nonstop shining awareness, that is true meditation.
"One should cultivate contemplation in one’s foibles. The foibles are like fish, and contemplation is like fishing hooks. If there are no fish, then the fishing hooks have no use. The bigger the fish is, the better the result we will get. As long as the fishing hooks keep at it, all foibles will eventually be contained and controlled at will." -Zhiyi

"Just be kind." -Atisha
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