Highest form of meditation?

Discussion of meditation in the Mahayana and Vajrayana traditions.
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Seitaka
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Highest form of meditation?

Post by Seitaka »

Which in your experience or according to your studies of Buddhism is the highest or most powerful form of meditation or practice? Some distinct forms I can think of would be:

1. Standard silent meditation, Vipassana/anapana or zazen types of meditation

2. Self-inquiry, perhaps Buddhism's most distinct form would be the Chan Huatou practice such as focusing on "Who am I?" or "What is this?"

3. Mantra/dharani repetition and especially esoteric practices involving mantra, mudra, visualization, etc.

4. What might be called "alchemical" or "tantric yogic" practices surrounding the bodies internal energies, etc.

How can I know which one is best toward gaining enlightenment?
Bristollad
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Re: Highest form of meditation?

Post by Bristollad »

Seitaka wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 3:28 pm Which in your experience or according to your studies of Buddhism is the highest or most powerful form of meditation or practice? Some distinct forms I can think of would be:

1. Standard silent meditation, Vipassana/anapana or zazen types of meditation

2. Self-inquiry, perhaps Buddhism's most distinct form would be the Chan Huatou practice such as focusing on "Who am I?" or "What is this?"

3. Mantra/dharani repetition and especially esoteric practices involving mantra, mudra, visualization, etc.

4. What might be called "alchemical" or "tantric yogic" practices surrounding the bodies internal energies, etc.

How can I know which one is best toward gaining enlightenment?
The highest or most powerful meditation or practice is the one that accords with your needs and interests and that you can sustain. How do you know which one that is right now? Talk to your teachers and follow their instruction.
The antidote—to be free from the suffering of samsara—you need to be free from delusion and karma; you need to be free from ignorance, the root of samsara. So you need to meditate on emptiness. That is what you need. Lama Zopa Rinpoche
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Seitaka
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Re: Highest form of meditation?

Post by Seitaka »

Bristollad wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 3:51 pm The highest or most powerful meditation or practice is the one that accords with your needs and interests and that you can sustain. How do you know which one that is right now? Talk to your teachers and follow their instruction.
OK but which do you personally think it is?
Archie2009
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Re: Highest form of meditation?

Post by Archie2009 »

The highest form of meditation would be what Longchenpa describes in a text like the chos dbyings dzod. Completely spacious, luminous and effortless. He described this from his own experience. Whatever doubts or wrong views you harbour, if you don't at least believe such a type of meditation is possible in this life, that would be an issue, I think.
Jesse
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Re: Highest form of meditation?

Post by Jesse »

I would say mindfulness meditation, as the full realization of that practice is essentially enlightenment. Mindfulness with realization of emptiness.
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Re: Highest form of meditation?

Post by Natan »

Seitaka wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 3:28 pm Which in your experience or according to your studies of Buddhism is the highest or most powerful form of meditation or practice? Some distinct forms I can think of would be:

1. Standard silent meditation, Vipassana/anapana or zazen types of meditation

2. Self-inquiry, perhaps Buddhism's most distinct form would be the Chan Huatou practice such as focusing on "Who am I?" or "What is this?"

3. Mantra/dharani repetition and especially esoteric practices involving mantra, mudra, visualization, etc.

4. What might be called "alchemical" or "tantric yogic" practices surrounding the bodies internal energies, etc.

How can I know which one is best toward gaining enlightenment?
Maybe you don't have a complete list
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Seitaka
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Re: Highest form of meditation?

Post by Seitaka »

Crazywisdom wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 11:50 am Maybe you don't have a complete list
Yes these are just some major ones, 84,000 Dharma doors would be kind of hard to list huh?
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Matt J
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Re: Highest form of meditation?

Post by Matt J »

I would say it depends on the practitioner. People need different methods (or non-methods) at different times.
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Bristollad
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Re: Highest form of meditation?

Post by Bristollad »

Seitaka wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 4:28 pm
Bristollad wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 3:51 pm The highest or most powerful meditation or practice is the one that accords with your needs and interests and that you can sustain. How do you know which one that is right now? Talk to your teachers and follow their instruction.
OK but which do you personally think it is?
There is no one answer. It seems to me about as sensible as asking which vitamin is the best to be healthy.
The antidote—to be free from the suffering of samsara—you need to be free from delusion and karma; you need to be free from ignorance, the root of samsara. So you need to meditate on emptiness. That is what you need. Lama Zopa Rinpoche
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Re: Highest form of meditation?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Non-meditation. Everything else is based on working with circumstances.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

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Malcolm
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Re: Highest form of meditation?

Post by Malcolm »

Seitaka wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 2:33 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 11:50 am Maybe you don't have a complete list
Yes these are just some major ones, 84,000 Dharma doors would be kind of hard to list huh?
Pretty easy actually: 21,000 for ignorance (Abhidharma), 21,000 for desire (Vinaya), 21,000 for hatred (sūtra), and another 21,000 for mixed afflictions (mixed teachings).
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Re: Highest form of meditation?

Post by reiun »

Seitaka wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 3:28 pm Which in your experience or according to your studies of Buddhism is the highest or most powerful form of meditation or practice?
Koans (with dokusan). During sesshin.
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Ayu
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Re: Highest form of meditation?

Post by Ayu »

For me, the different meditation techniques are like a beautiful bouquet of flowers. To determine which method is the highest i.e. which is the best seems to be quite narrow and respectless against the then so-called lower practices.
There are methods more complex than others, but this doesn't even mean they were more or less difficult than others. I believe these classifications are vain only, if you try to determine it generally. Everybody can only chose for oneself.
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FiveSkandhas
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Re: Highest form of meditation?

Post by FiveSkandhas »

Matt J wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 7:41 pm I would say it depends on the practitioner. People need different methods (or non-methods) at different times.
Exactly. Upaya or "skillful means" are called for.

Contrary to what many believe, there is no pyramid or ladder of means...there are valid and invalid forms of meditation, which is a tricky one, but there are many ways to reach enlightenment
"One should cultivate contemplation in one’s foibles. The foibles are like fish, and contemplation is like fishing hooks. If there are no fish, then the fishing hooks have no use. The bigger the fish is, the better the result we will get. As long as the fishing hooks keep at it, all foibles will eventually be contained and controlled at will." -Zhiyi

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Seitaka
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Re: Highest form of meditation?

Post by Seitaka »

FiveSkandhas wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 9:20 am
Matt J wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 7:41 pm I would say it depends on the practitioner. People need different methods (or non-methods) at different times.
Exactly. Upaya or "skillful means" are called for.

Contrary to what many believe, there is no pyramid or ladder of means...there are valid and invalid forms of meditation, which is a tricky one, but there are many ways to reach enlightenment
I mean there are historic and revered Buddhists who did classify methods into a hierarchy of superior and inferior. For example Kukai thought that only the esoteric practices could lead one to becoming a Buddha in this life time and hence must by definition be superior to other means in his eyes.

So while what some replies have been saying about upaya and various methods suitable for particular people or circumstances is true, it isn't that there is not a hierarchy of methods and all are equal but rather there is a hierarchy of practitioners with some that are meant for the higher practices and some that aren't.
Genjo Conan
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Re: Highest form of meditation?

Post by Genjo Conan »

I don't think you're going to get a definitive answer that's not also tied up in sectarianism.
Malcolm
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Re: Highest form of meditation?

Post by Malcolm »

Genjo Conan wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 5:13 pm I don't think you're going to get a definitive answer that's not also tied up in sectarianism.
The answer is simple, and not sectarian at all, since it is mentioned in every sūtra and tantra that discusses Buddha's awakening.

The highest meditation is Vajropama Samadhi, since only it has the ability to obliterate all traces of the two obscurations in their entirety.
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Re: Highest form of meditation?

Post by Giovanni »

And you will only be brought to the door that corresponds to your karma-vipaka. All we can do is unfurl our sails. Our karmic winds will take us…
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Seitaka
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Re: Highest form of meditation?

Post by Seitaka »

Malcolm wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 7:00 pm The answer is simple, and not sectarian at all, since it is mentioned in every sūtra and tantra that discusses Buddha's awakening.

The highest meditation is Vajropama Samadhi, since only it has the ability to obliterate all traces of the two obscurations in their entirety.
But what is the specific methodology or meditative practice by which such a samadhi can be attained? Obviously following the Buddhist path as a whole, but any particular practice which was seen as especially effective in attaining such?
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Re: Highest form of meditation?

Post by reiun »

Malcolm wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 7:00 pm The answer is simple, and not sectarian at all, since it is mentioned in every sūtra and tantra that discusses Buddha's awakening.

The highest meditation is Vajropama Samadhi, since only it has the ability to obliterate all traces of the two obscurations in their entirety.
From Buddhistdoor.net, only the following is explained:

"vajropama-samādhi
'Diamond-like concentration', so called because, like a diamond that can cut through all things, it is the last stage in the abandonment of defilements; whatever defilements that have remained are all abandoned in this samādhi."

Without going to too much trouble, can you kindly provide your own take on this term, or point to a robust internet-accessible reference, please? (I'm sure the lead-up this stage is important, too.) Thank you.
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