Revisiting Kiva

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Kim O'Hara
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Revisiting Kiva

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A few years ago I came across Kiva and was impressed by their concept of making microfinance available to people in developing nations. I put a few dollars into loans, recycled them when they matured, added a bit more money now and then, and gradually lost faith in what they were doing.
I started seeing clusters of similar loan requests - "Yyyy wants to borrow $3333 for a water filtration unit" - which suggested to me that pushy lenders were pushing debt onto poor people.
I also noticed a lot of "Xxx wants to borrow $222 for hybrid seeds and fertiliser" requests which worried me because this farming model is a well known debt trap: hybrid seed traps the farmer into buying more every year because they don't reproduce, and the hybrid varieties need more fertilisers and pesticides.
And then I started noticing the interest rates that the borrowers were being offered. Some of them were loan-shark rates. That's not what I want to be part of, either.

This connection (below) to Amazon just about seals my departure but I'm interested in others' thoughts about Kiva and charities generally.

:namaste:
Kim

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DNS
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Re: Revisiting Kiva

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What's wrong with that connection to Amazon? People purchase from Amazon and a small portion goes to the charity of their choice and some have chosen kiva. I have my Amazon purchases set up to donate the small portion to Bhikkhu Bodhi's Buddhist Global Relief.

Virtually no charity is perfect, but I think kiva is good.

It is sort of like the saying,

"give a man a fish, feed him for one day; teach a man to fish, feed him for life."

The kiva loans go to people starting a business or trying to expand their business or for home repairs, school tuition or numerous other things. And then when they pay it back, most kiva lenders re-lend the money to another person or group. In case anyone doesn't know, the interest income does not go to the kiva members, it is to the microfinancers. Kiva members donate their own money and receive no interest, just the money back to either keep or re-lend out again. There are some bad financiers, but you can choose which loans to make and which field partner you want to use.

I've been a member since 2011 but I've only started making regular loans, an average of one per day, since 2018.

https://www.kiva.org/lender/david40892223
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Re: Revisiting Kiva

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Revisiting Kiva

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Friendly and marketable colonialism.
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Kim O'Hara
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Re: Revisiting Kiva

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:good:
Thanks, although it is getting a bit old (2009).

The bit that I think I need to follow up, for my own peace of mind, is
Meanwhile, as I have discovered over the last year, the evidence on the effects of microcredit on poverty and empowerment is rather ambiguous.
:reading:
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Kim O'Hara
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Re: Revisiting Kiva

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DNS wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2020 8:04 pm What's wrong with that connection to Amazon? People purchase from Amazon and a small portion goes to the charity of their choice and some have chosen kiva. ...
What's wrong with that connection is that Amazon is profoundly unethical in what it does and how it does it, and any charity which works with it is legitimising Amazon and making it even more of a monster.
Virtually no charity is perfect, but I think kiva is good.
Thanks. If more people here agree with that, I may be able to overlook the Amazon connection.

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Re: Revisiting Kiva

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Kim O'Hara wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2020 11:15 pm What's wrong with that connection is that Amazon is profoundly unethical in what it does and how it does it, and any charity which works with it is legitimising Amazon and making it even more of a monster.
Amazon works with over one million charities, that one can designate to receive a portion of their purchases, made by Amazon as a donation. I'm sure many of them are very good that you would approve of. Kiva is just one of the over one million charities that is eligible to receive these donations from customers' purchases.
smile.amazon.com wrote:What charities can I choose from?
You can choose from over one million eligible 501(c)(3) public charitable organizations.
I'm sure you'd agree that Buddhist Global Relief is a good organization?
https://www.buddhistglobalrelief.org/
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Kim O'Hara
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Re: Revisiting Kiva

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DNS wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2020 11:26 pm
Kim O'Hara wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2020 11:15 pm What's wrong with that connection is that Amazon is profoundly unethical in what it does and how it does it, and any charity which works with it is legitimising Amazon and making it even more of a monster.
Amazon works with over one million charities, that one can designate to receive a portion of their purchases, made by Amazon as a donation. I'm sure many of them are very good that you would approve of. Kiva is just one of the over one million charities that is eligible to receive these donations from customers' purchases.
smile.amazon.com wrote:What charities can I choose from?
You can choose from over one million eligible 501(c)(3) public charitable organizations.
I'm sure you'd agree that Buddhist Global Relief is a good organization?
https://www.buddhistglobalrelief.org/
I'm sure you're right, David, but I think you missed my point so I have bolded it.
I could put it another way, too: Amazon is trying to buy a social licence to continue operating the way it always has, i.e., unethically. I don't want to play along with that if there's a better option.
(See, e.g., https://www.ethicalconsumer.org/company ... zoncom-inc, https://berkleycenter.georgetown.edu/po ... on-ethical and :jawdrop: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Amazon for critiques of Amazon's business practices.)

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Re: Revisiting Kiva

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Kim O'Hara wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 12:38 am I'm sure you're right, David, but I think you missed my point so I have bolded it.
I could put it another way, too: Amazon is trying to buy a social licence to continue operating the way it always has, i.e., unethically. I don't want to play along with that if there's a better option.
I understood your point, but I was making the point that Amazon works with over million charities, probably many of those that you would approve of, for example, Buddhist Global Relief and Tzu Chi. Would you be opposed to working with any of those other one million charities too?

Of course that is you prerogative to be opposed to all those other charities too, but just curious if you would now be opposed to those too?
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Re: Revisiting Kiva

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"Working with" Amazon is not really optional in some ways lol, being that they own so much infrastructure. You can't really not work with behemoth monopolies most of the time even as a consumer.

I assume this is also true as an NGO, only maybe in different ways? I imagine it is a tough tactical decision to make for some organizations, I don't envy them. I mean literally one of the ways Amazon operates is as a gatekeeper that you have no real choice but to use..that's their business model, among other great things like invading privacy, supporting law enforcement overreach etc.

As a consumer I try not to directly feed the Big Tech monopolists either, but I think a lot of times it's pretty hard to avoid...which is the whole point of (part of) what is wrong with them.

If you want to offset it, consider donating to the EFF, EPIC and similar groups, as well as groups like Institute For Local Self Reliance, or maybe even labor struggles among Amazon workers. That makes me wonder if you can donate to the ILSR through Amazon...lol.

Props to you for being concerned though Kim, it's (IMO) one of the biggest political issues of our time that gets little play from the media..hmmm, imagine that.
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Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

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Kim O'Hara
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Re: Revisiting Kiva

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:good:
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Kim O'Hara
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Re: Revisiting Kiva

Post by Kim O'Hara »

DNS wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 1:33 am
Kim O'Hara wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 12:38 am I'm sure you're right, David, but I think you missed my point so I have bolded it.
I could put it another way, too: Amazon is trying to buy a social licence to continue operating the way it always has, i.e., unethically. I don't want to play along with that if there's a better option.
I understood your point, but I was making the point that Amazon works with over million charities, probably many of those that you would approve of, for example, Buddhist Global Relief and Tzu Chi. Would you be opposed to working with any of those other one million charities too?

Of course that is you prerogative to be opposed to all those other charities too, but just curious if you would now be opposed to those too?
I wouldn't rule out donating to them - or to Kiva - just because they have signed up to Amazon. As JD said, it must sometimes be a tough tactical choice. On the other hand, knowing that they have signed up to Amazon makes me somewhat less likely to support them.
In the case of Kiva, the announcement was one more small step away from the kinds of things I would like to support. It was enough to prompt me to start the topic but it is not decisive by itself.

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Re: Revisiting Kiva

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Johnny Dangerous wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 2:01 am "[...]and similar groups, as well as groups like Institute For Local Self Reliance[...]
A wonderful NPO and think tank. Glad to see another fan and supporter :)
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