Should Buddhists even care about "engaging" social politics?

Discuss the application of the Dharma to situations of social, political, environmental and economic suffering and injustice.
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Nemo
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Re: Should Buddhists even care about "engaging" social polit

Post by Nemo »

Indrajala wrote:
JKhedrup wrote: I have little faith I the paradigm of identity politics, formed in the elite universities and using a jargon that locks out the co mon person. I feel funds for that would bemuch better diverted to equality initiatives onthe ground and practical education that ensures upward mobility of the oppressed classes.
Before anything actually works at the ground level there needs to be rule of law in the streets otherwise the funds get misappropriated, stolen, misused, etc.

I've seen professional beggars in Kathmandu exploit western charities, meanwhile the real destitute go empty handed.

However, this raises an ethical question for Buddhists. If rule of law requires the application of high levels of violence (and in some countries it is required) and perhaps even a secret police to monitor government officials and employees, then how far will you as a Buddhist support those measures?
I think the secret of judging a political system is measuring the level of coercion needed to get individuals to take part. If you need high levels of coercion and violence the system is broken. Either by being mired in ideology that has little correlation to reality or simply favouring a small elite at the expense of everyone else. By this metric the US is one of the worst in the world with it's huge prison population and military bases projecting force everywhere.
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rory
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Re: Should Buddhists even care about "engaging" social polit

Post by rory »

Johnny Dangerously:
the point I was making, that Zhiyi, Tiantai and Nichiren are making is that you do not have to wait for a 'good' birth as: abled, white, brahimin, male etc to have the opportunity to achieve buddhahood. Because of 10,000 realms in one thought moment, the realm of the Buddha is right here with us in Samsara so right with our bodies, however they may be we can practice and become Buddhas.

Using our present situatiion whatever it may be we overcome difficulties and practice.
gassho
Rory
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Chih-I:
The Tai-ching states "the women in the realms of Mara, Sakra and Brahma all neither abandoned ( their old) bodies nor received (new) bodies. They all received buddhahood with their current bodies (genshin)" Thus these verses state that the dharma nature is like a great ocean. No right or wrong is preached (within it) Ordinary people and sages are equal, without superiority or inferiority
Paul, Groner "The Lotus Sutra in Japanese Culture"eds. Tanabe p. 58
https://www.tendai-usa.org/
Malcolm
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Re: Should Buddhists even care about "engaging" social polit

Post by Malcolm »

rory wrote:Malcolm:
8. deaf, dumb, blind or mentally deficient
This is a very good example of re-iterating something that is outdated. Times have changed a current priest in Honmon Butsuryu Shu is deaf and signs the Odaimoku, he enthusiastically wants to bring Buddhism to deaf people with sign language, as opposed to the times he was told in SGI to sit and be silent. Blind people can read braille and study just like anyone else. Even those who are developmentally disabled have levels of ability, it is up to them how much and how far they can learn. Let's not perpetrate these backward attitudes.
It is true that we have braille and sign language these assist people are deaf and blind learn Dharma. Developmental disabled people can learn Dharma too. But to pretend than these factors do not present significant problems is to just ignore how things are.
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Re: Should Buddhists even care about "engaging" social polit

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

rory wrote:Johnny Dangerously:
the point I was making, that Zhiyi, Tiantai and Nichiren are making is that you do not have to wait for a 'good' birth as: abled, white, brahimin, male etc to have the opportunity to achieve buddhahood. Because of 10,000 realms in one thought moment, the realm of the Buddha is right here with us in Samsara so right with our bodies, however they may be we can practice and become Buddhas.

Using our present situatiion whatever it may be we overcome difficulties and practice.
gassho
Rory

Again, seems a notion pretty common to many Mahayana schools. The criteria for "precious human birth, minus things that have changed like the status of deafness etc. and Dharma practice, I think is to establish the factors that make fruitful practice possible, and it's a pretty sensible list. It is not saying that no one can practice outside of those factors, it is saying that those without those factors people face a much tougher road for fuitful practice - kind of hard to argue. If you look over the list Malcolm posted, there is nothing there about being male or a Brahmin...things like being blind and deaf DID make it liekly much more difficult to study Dharma, for pretty obvious reasons, until the modern age. Score one for modernity!
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Adi
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Re: Should Buddhists even care about "engaging" social polit

Post by Adi »

Johnny Dangerous wrote:...The criteria for "precious human birth, minus things that have changed like the status of deafness etc. and Dharma practice, I think is to establish the factors that make fruitful practice possible, and it's a pretty sensible list. It is not saying that no one can practice outside of those factors, it is saying that those without those factors people face a much tougher road for fuitful practice - kind of hard to argue. If you look over the list Malcolm posted, there is nothing there about being male or a Brahmin...things like being blind and deaf DID make it liekly much more difficult to study Dharma, for pretty obvious reasons, until the modern age. Score one for modernity!
Exactly so. The criteria of the eight freedoms and ten advantages are pretty clear and common to most Buddhist schools, though as already noted, anyone who takes refuge in the Three Jewels can practice. There are few other practices classified as a religion that are so open.

It is also good to recall, in the vastness of the past, present and future of the three thousand-fold universe, how precious it is even to hear the name Buddha once in a single lifetime. So in terms of the topic of this thread, my own view is that if engaging in social politics is a help to practice and strengthens one's resolve in the Dharma, then it's probably a good thing. On the other hand, if it brings fertilizer to the three poisons, then perhaps not.

Adi
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rory
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Re: Should Buddhists even care about "engaging" social polit

Post by rory »

JD:
Again, seems a notion pretty common to many Mahayana schools.
Actually not, the one, ten thousand worlds in one thought moment, I discussed from Zhiyi is very unique with his ramifications. As Ven. Indrajala pointed out in this thread.
http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.ph ... 6&start=20

There is a kind of philosophical sloppiness that I see in these forums. What is your philosophical school? Do you belong to Yogacara, somtimes Yogacara is called Mind-Only but this is incorrect.http://www.acmuller.net/yogacara/articles/intro-uni.htm Someone from the Avatamsaka school would assert that everything is mind....
Avatamsaka, Lotus as they have very differing ways of seeing such things. Even among the Lotus schools you will find some that believe in inherent Enlightenment (hongaku and others that do not. I do not.

So I and others assert despite conventional reality due to ichinen sanzen we can with effort become Buddhas in this very life. We are not already buddhas.
gassho
Rory
Namu Kanzeon Bosatsu
Chih-I:
The Tai-ching states "the women in the realms of Mara, Sakra and Brahma all neither abandoned ( their old) bodies nor received (new) bodies. They all received buddhahood with their current bodies (genshin)" Thus these verses state that the dharma nature is like a great ocean. No right or wrong is preached (within it) Ordinary people and sages are equal, without superiority or inferiority
Paul, Groner "The Lotus Sutra in Japanese Culture"eds. Tanabe p. 58
https://www.tendai-usa.org/
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Re: Should Buddhists even care about "engaging" social polit

Post by conebeckham »

Rory-
Tibetan Buddhists don't "belong" to a philosophical school, per se, in the way that you are discussing. We filter our Madhyamika, and our Cittamatra/Yogacara, through the commentaries of our respective lineage masters, for the most part. Some read the original texts, but most rely on commentaries.

For that matter, East Asian lineages do the same, I think.

Tibetan Vajrayana Buddhists, most of them, have exposure to Madhyamika, and Yogacara. But we rely on "pith instructions" unique to our lineages, more than on sutras or shastras, frankly.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
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དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
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conebeckham
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Re: Should Buddhists even care about "engaging" social polit

Post by conebeckham »

..and as for "Inherent Enlightenment," I think you'll find that notion more in keeping with Nyingmapas, and most Kagyupas. Many Sakyapas, and most Gelukpas, will disagree with "inherent Enlightenment."
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
zsc
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Re: Should Buddhists even care about "engaging" social polit

Post by zsc »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Who teaches this notion of karma, where your Karma "bleeds out" into others, and on what do they base the teaching?
So how does one acquire this merit? There are ten ways of making merit named dasapuñña-kiriya-vatthu. These are:
1. Giving or generosity (Dāna-mayaŋpuñña-kiriya-vatthu)
2. Moral conduct or virtue (Sīla-mayaŋ........................... )
3. Meditation or mental development (Bhāvana-maya .... )
4. Respect or reverence (Apaciti-sahagataŋ....)
5. Service in helping others (Veyyāvacca-sahagataŋ.... )
6. Transference of merit (Pattānuppadānaŋ ..................)
7. Rejoicing in other’s merit (Abbhanumodanaŋ ......... )
8. Expounding or teaching the dhamma (Desana-mayaŋ .....)
9. Listening to the dhamma (Savana-mayaŋ.................)
10. Correcting one’s views (Diññhijjukammaŋpuñña-kiriya-vatthu)

...

7. REJOICING IN OTHERʼS MERIT (ABBHANUMODANA)
Rejoicing in other’s merit as a way of making merit is to be understood as rejoicing
with the words, ‘Good, well done (sādhu)’, when for instance, others share merit with
us, or when they perform another meritorious act. This also falls within one of the four
divine abidings, namely mudita(sympathetic joy).

...

In the Suttas, there are only ‘three ways of making merit’ explicitly mentioned by the
Buddha, namely, 1. Giving (dāna-mayaŋpuñña-kiriya-vatthu), 2.Moral conduct(sīlamayaŋpuñña-kiriya-vatthu) and 3. Meditation(bhāvana-mayaŋpuñña-kiriya-vatthu)
The other seven ways are also mentioned inthe Suttas but not explicitly. An example
would be the following stanza in a Sutta in the Aïguttara-nikāya:
‘When gifts are given to noble,
Upright and equi-poised persons,
The merit thus acquired is pure,
And abundant alike.
And they who rejoice in it (anumodanti, by exclaiming “Sādhu!”),
Or render their service (veyyāvacca) there,
They also receive that merit (puñña),
And their merit is in no way smaller.’
18

Thus the seven ways of making merit, such as ‘rejoicing in other’s merit’ (abbhanumodana) or service (veyyāvacca) etc., should be understood as being included in the
above three. They are judiciously highlighted by the commentaries in this way:

In 1. Giving (dāna) is included:
6. Transference of merit, and 7. Rejoicing in other’s merit.
In 2. Moral conduct(sīla) is included:
4. Reverence, and 5. Service.
In 3. Meditation(bhāvana) is included:
8. Expounding the Dhamma, and 9. Listening to the Dhamma.
Correcting one’s view (10), however, is included in all three (1,2,3).
Thus the ways of making merit in brief are three and in detail ten.
‘Let therefore a man (advises the Buddha) train himself in merit-making that yields
long-lasting happiness. Let him cultivate the practice of giving, virtuous conduct and a
mind of mettā. By cultivating these qualities the wise man arrives in untroubled and
happy states. Hence, do not fear merit-making. ‘Merit-making’ is a term denoting happiness, what is desirable, pleasant, dear and charming.’
From "The Ten Ways of Making Merit", edited by Ven. Nanadassana. http://www.beyondthenet.net/thedway/nya ... 0merit.pdf

Your theory that we cannot remove the karmic obstructions of others goes against the understanding that is the basis of the practice of the transference of merit.

Malcolm - I have said over and over here and in the other thread that my concepts of "white/non-white" are referring to conventional reality, with the understanding that all are empty. I do not know why you are choosing to ignore this by implying I am insisting that these concepts apply to ultimate reality. I'm at a loss as how to respond to your replies when they don't even engage what I actually said.

Also, it is an accepted understanding that one can practice the dharma with less obstructions when your basic needs are taken care of. It's the practical reason behind why we don't let our monks starve.
yolo (but not really).
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Re: Should Buddhists even care about "engaging" social polit

Post by Punya »

Rejoicing in other people's merit doesn't mean there is actually any kind of transference. The purpose is to reduce our focus on self.
We abide nowhere. We possess nothing.
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Re: Should Buddhists even care about "engaging" social polit

Post by zsc »

Punya wrote:Rejoicing in other people's merit doesn't mean there is actually any kind of transference.
How are you defining "transference"?
The purpose is to reduce our focus on self.
How does this refute the point of literally every teacher who expounds on the transference of merit?
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Re: Should Buddhists even care about "engaging" social polit

Post by Punya »

Not any of the teachers I'm familiar with. For example:

Now, even if we become aware of the fact that, "yes I acknowledge that most of the time in most situations I act for selfish reasons and I behave in this way but I cannot do anything about it." Behaving like this comes naturally and it is very difficult to resist and desist from the tendency. This practice of sending and taking aids us in being able to counteract that tendency.
P70

If one who is this kind of fear [of Tonglen] then one has to, of course, realise that in Buddhism each of us have our own individual karmic history and what we experience is the direct result of our previous karma. Basically we cannot share each other's karma.
P75

The Benevolent Mind: A Manual in Mind Training
~Traleg Kyabgon Rinpoche

TKR is talking here about tonglen but the principles equally apply to rejoicing in other people's merit. But perhaps we are talking at cross purposes.
We abide nowhere. We possess nothing.
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rory
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Re: Should Buddhists even care about "engaging" social polit

Post by rory »

Thanks conbeckam for explaining. It's quite true, most Ch'an/Zen followers don't really know about Yogacarya, as for Tiantai/Tendai a lot will read Zhiyi's meditation manual but stop at his brilliant re-formulation of Madhyamika philosophy. Though Tiantai/Tendai/Nichiren followers do read the Lotus Sutra and Pure Landers the Pure Land Sutras, Western critical scholarship has done a great job of presenting the various philosophical schools. Buddhists should go and read for themselves, educate themselves. Obviously Avatamsaka never made it to Tibet and I know you don't read or comment on the Lotus Sutra either.....

wow, Tibetan Buddhism is really different, Punya's quote shocked me. In any Chinese, Vietnamese, Korean, Japanese temple you will chant to transfer merit, whether it is for the person (living or dead) to be reborn in a Pure Land or to take form as a human. It's critical: Eko (Jp.transference of Merit) is seminal.
gassho
Rory
Namu Kanzeon Bosatsu
Chih-I:
The Tai-ching states "the women in the realms of Mara, Sakra and Brahma all neither abandoned ( their old) bodies nor received (new) bodies. They all received buddhahood with their current bodies (genshin)" Thus these verses state that the dharma nature is like a great ocean. No right or wrong is preached (within it) Ordinary people and sages are equal, without superiority or inferiority
Paul, Groner "The Lotus Sutra in Japanese Culture"eds. Tanabe p. 58
https://www.tendai-usa.org/
Punya
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Re: Should Buddhists even care about "engaging" social polit

Post by Punya »

This is interesting Rory. I didn't realise that there is such a divergence amongst the traditions on this point. I wonder whether this has been influenced by the indigenous belief systems of the respective countries.
We abide nowhere. We possess nothing.
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rory
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Re: Should Buddhists even care about "engaging" social polit

Post by rory »

Punya; I looked here, granted Wikipedia isn't the best source but...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karma_in_B ... n_of_merit

it looks like it exists in TB and Theravada too.
with gassho
Rory
Namu Kanzeon Bosatsu
Chih-I:
The Tai-ching states "the women in the realms of Mara, Sakra and Brahma all neither abandoned ( their old) bodies nor received (new) bodies. They all received buddhahood with their current bodies (genshin)" Thus these verses state that the dharma nature is like a great ocean. No right or wrong is preached (within it) Ordinary people and sages are equal, without superiority or inferiority
Paul, Groner "The Lotus Sutra in Japanese Culture"eds. Tanabe p. 58
https://www.tendai-usa.org/
Punya
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Re: Should Buddhists even care about "engaging" social polit

Post by Punya »

Well, yes, not a great source. In my mind, dedication of merit and transference of merit are two quite different things but perhaps different terminology (or translation) is used in the different traditions. It seemed to me a great topic for a thesis though. Inevitably I found this https://www.equinoxpub.com/journals/ind ... view/14897 .
We abide nowhere. We possess nothing.
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Re: Should Buddhists even care about "engaging" social polit

Post by kirtu »

rory wrote:It's quite true, most Ch'an/Zen followers don't really know about Yogacarya,
??? Yogacarya is highly influential within Zen and Ch'an. Most Zen practitioners I knew at least knew about Yogacharya.
Obviously Avatamsaka never made it to Tibet and I know you don't read or comment on the Lotus Sutra either.....
The Avatamsaka is highly influential in Tibetan Buddhism although it can be argued that this is restricted to the Gaṇḍavyūha Sutra. For example the Prayer of Samantabhadra is taken directly from the Gaṇḍavyūha Sutra.

I've seen references to the Lotus Sutra pop up but it's influence is weak within Tibetan Buddhism.

Kirt
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Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
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Malcolm
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Re: Should Buddhists even care about "engaging" social polit

Post by Malcolm »

zsc wrote:
Your theory that we cannot remove the karmic obstructions of others goes against the understanding that is the basis of the practice of the transference of merit.
The dedication of merit is not a "transfer" of merit.
Malcolm - I have said over and over here and in the other thread that my concepts of "white/non-white" are referring to conventional reality
Your concepts vis a vie this issue appear to be based in a one-lifetime perception of social relations. From a Buddhist perspective, taking a one life-time view is not conventional reality at all.

Also, it is an accepted understanding that one can practice the dharma with less obstructions when your basic needs are taken care of. It's the practical reason behind why we don't let our monks starve.
It would be best if no one starved, and yet despite everything, there is still suffering in the world.
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Re: Should Buddhists even care about "engaging" social polit

Post by Malcolm »

rory wrote: I know you don't read or comment on the Lotus Sutra either.....
There are commentaries on the Saddharmapundarika Sutra in Tibetan.
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Re: Should Buddhists even care about "engaging" social polit

Post by Malcolm »

kirtu wrote:
The Avatamsaka is highly influential in Tibetan Buddhism although it can be argued that this is restricted to the Gaṇḍavyūha Sutra. For example the Prayer of Samantabhadra is taken directly from the Gaṇḍavyūha Sutra.

I've seen references to the Lotus Sutra pop up but it's influence is weak within Tibetan Buddhism.

Kirt
Hi Kirt,

Quite the contrary, the Lotus Sutra's ekayāna teachings are very influential in Tibetan Buddhism, forming the basis for example of Sonam Tsemo's observation that there is in reality only one vehicle.

The way we treat sutras is to get at the essential message of a given sutra, and not get caught up in irrelevant details.
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