Translations of the Lotus Sutra - which is suitable for beginners?

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technomage
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Translations of the Lotus Sutra - which is suitable for beginners?

Post by technomage »

Mod note: This topic was split from this old-aged topic: https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.p ... 04#p255404

Hi there,

I am reading Master Thich Nhat Hanh's "Peaceful Action, Open Heart: Lessons from the Lotus Sutra" at the moment and he refers to the Hurwitz translation a lot when he quotes passages from the Sutra. My own experience with the Lotus Sutra is limited, but I am definitely interested after reading Thay's book.

Should I start with Hurwitz or is there a version more suitable for beginners.

Kind regards
Johann
PS> Oops. I forgot to introduce myself. I am Johann van Vuuren from Johannesburg, South Africa. My interest in Buddhism started with Zen about 25 years ago, but I have been migrating more towards Tibetan Buddhism these days as a devoted follower of Avalokiteshvara Bodhisattva and Tara.
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Re: Translations of the Lotus Sutra

Post by Budai »

technomage wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 8:47 am Hi there,

I am reading Master Thich Nhat Hanh's "Peaceful Action, Open Heart: Lessons from the Lotus Sutra" at the moment and he refers to the Hurwitz translation a lot when he quotes passages from the Sutra. My own experience with the Lotus Sutra is limited, but I am definitely interested after reading Thay's book.

Should I start with Hurwitz or is there a version more suitable for beginners.

Kind regards
Johann
PS> Oops. I forgot to introduce myself. I am Johann van Vuuren from Johannesburg, South Africa. My interest in Buddhism started with Zen about 25 years ago, but I have been migrating more towards Tibetan Buddhism these days as a devoted follower of Avalokiteshvara Bodhisattva and Tara.
The SGI Version by Burton Watson is one of the most widely read ones. It is the one I read and turn to the most. I like it because it's nifty to read, and has a lot of online options.

Here is a link to it, for free Online Reading:
https://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/lsoc/toc/

If you want to ever buy it, here is a link for that:
https://bookstore.sgi-usa.org/shop/sgi% ... 5637145613
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Re: Translations of the Lotus Sutra - which is suitable for beginners?

Post by narhwal90 »

BDK translation

https://www.bdk.or.jp/document/dgtl-dl/ ... a_2007.pdf


From 84000 collection

https://read.84000.co/translation/UT22084-051-001.html

It is interesting to see how the translations are different and how they are similar.
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Re: Translations of the Lotus Sutra - which is suitable for beginners?

Post by Queequeg »

There are turns of phrase I like in Hurvitz. Until recently, I think that was the version widely relied on in academic work. I like that version a lot, but, it inserts sections from the Sanskrit that are not present in Kumarajiva's Chinese translation. Its an editorial choice that I think is criticized. If you want exposure to the version most widely known in East Asia - I would avoid this one.

The BDK version seems to be the current academic preference. I use that as my daily reference because of its public availability.

Watson is very readable.

Reeves' version is weird, but I appreciate his insight and his spirit.

Kern is relatively useless. Its a translation of a late Sanskrit version. Useful for comparisons, but not much else. Hard to read.

The Kosei version was done by some of the leading Lotus Sutra scholars in Japan. With the BDK version.

There is one more I can't remember - by a Nichiren Shu priest/scholar.

We haven't had a translation of the quality of Kumarajiva yet, I don't think.

Tibetans in general don't think much of the Lotus Sutra. (See here; Then there is this) In East Asia it is possibly the most influential text.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Translations of the Lotus Sutra - which is suitable for beginners?

Post by Brunelleschi »

Queequeg wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 2:08 pmTibetans in general don't think much of the Lotus Sutra. (See here; Then there is this) In East Asia it is possibly the most influential text.
I know there was a project translating the Tibetan version of Lotus Sutra. I donated to the project but I don't know how its faring...

I personally really like the Lotus Sutra and have a copy of it, along with the excellent Reading the Lotus Sutra by Teiser & Stone (2009). I mean, many (all?) Sutras proclaim themselves as the superior teaching. Which, in a sense must be true, otherwise the Buddha would be breaking the precepts of not lying - which is impossible.
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Re: Translations of the Lotus Sutra - which is suitable for beginners?

Post by Malcolm »

Brunelleschi wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 3:08 pm
Queequeg wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 2:08 pmTibetans in general don't think much of the Lotus Sutra. (See here; Then there is this) In East Asia it is possibly the most influential text.
I know there was a project translating the Tibetan version of Lotus Sutra. I donated to the project but I don't know how its faring...

I personally really like the Lotus Sutra and have a copy of it, along with the excellent Reading the Lotus Sutra by Teiser & Stone (2009). I mean, many (all?) Sutras proclaim themselves as the superior teaching. Which, in a sense must be true, otherwise the Buddha would be breaking the precepts of not lying - which is impossible.

https://read.84000.co/translation/toh113.html

This is the best translation into English yet. The introduction and textual analysis by Peter Alan Roberts alone is worth its weight in gold.
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Re: Translations of the Lotus Sutra - which is suitable for beginners?

Post by Brunelleschi »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 4:02 pmhttps://read.84000.co/translation/toh113.html

This is the best translation into English yet. The introduction and textual analysis by Peter Alan Roberts alone is worth its weight in gold.
Thanks, look forward to reading it. Sidenote, I always enjoy the longer and more elaborate titles of Sutras. "The White Lotus of the Good Dharma" sounds much more appealing than simply "The Lotus Sutra". :smile:
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Re: Translations of the Lotus Sutra - which is suitable for beginners?

Post by Budai »

Brunelleschi wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 5:31 pm
Malcolm wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 4:02 pmhttps://read.84000.co/translation/toh113.html

This is the best translation into English yet. The introduction and textual analysis by Peter Alan Roberts alone is worth its weight in gold.
Thanks, look forward to reading it. Sidenote, I always enjoy the longer and more elaborate titles of Sutras. "The White Lotus of the Good Dharma" sounds much more appealing than simply "The Lotus Sutra". :smile:
https://read.84000.co/data/toh113_84000 ... dharma.pdf

PDF link for it, in case you want a free copy, from their website.
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Re: Translations of the Lotus Sutra - which is suitable for beginners?

Post by Könchok Thrinley »

Queequeg wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 2:08 pm Tibetans in general don't think much of the Lotus Sutra. (See here; Then there is this) In East Asia it is possibly the most influential text.
Thanks for sharing those Q! That is absolutely fascinating that Lotus Sutra was not well known in Tibetan world. It is actually quite interesting given that if I remember correctly Gampopa cites it in the Ornament.
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

For those who do virtuous actions,
goodness is what comes to pass.
For those who do non-virtuous actions,
that becomes suffering indeed.

- Arya Sanghata Sutra
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Re: Translations of the Lotus Sutra - which is suitable for beginners?

Post by Malcolm »

Queequeg wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 2:08 pm Tibetans in general don't think much of the Lotus Sutra. (See here; Then there is this) In East Asia it is possibly the most influential text.
Its not the Tibetans don't think much (pejorative) of the Lotus Sūtra, it's just not part of the Tibetan curriculum.

Tibetans tend to focus on those sūtras that have well-established commentarial traditions, like the Prajñāpāramita. More importantly, they focus on the commentarial Tradition of Nalanda, and when it comes to the words of the Buddha, spend most of their time on the exegesis of the various tantras that form the core of their curriculum, Guhyasamaja, Guhyagarbha, Hevajra, and Kalacakra. These are the main ones.
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Re: Translations of the Lotus Sutra - which is suitable for beginners?

Post by Giovanni »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 7:39 pm
Queequeg wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 2:08 pm Tibetans in general don't think much of the Lotus Sutra. (See here; Then there is this) In East Asia it is possibly the most influential text.
Its not the Tibetans don't think much (pejorative) of the Lotus Sūtra, it's just not part of the Tibetan curriculum.

Tibetans tend to focus on those sūtras that have well-established commentarial traditions, like the Prajñāpāramita. More importantly, they focus on the commentarial Tradition of Nalanda, and when it comes to the words of the Buddha, spend most of their time on the exegesis of the various tantras that form the core of their curriculum, Guhyasamaja, Guhyagarbha, Hevajra, and Kalacakra. These are the main ones.
This is correct. In the Tibetan traditions I don’t think most people think of the Lotus Sutra at all. I have never heard a teacher talk about it. The Prajnaparamita body of work is central. But it is subtle and needs proper transmission by a living lineage.
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Re: Translations of the Lotus Sutra - which is suitable for beginners?

Post by Queequeg »

Intro to the translation of the Tibetan at 84000 is indeed good. The question about the Devadatta section missing from the Kumarajiva translation is interesting. It also lacks sections in the Medicinal Herbs chapter. Kumarajiva was from Kucha. No Sanskrit text that matches Kumarajiva's translation has been found. The theory is that the version he translated is a version that predates the existing Sanskrit versions.

Interesting that the translation from Tibetan makes certain points that are only indirect in the Kumarajiva - such as Dipamkara being an emanation of the Shakyamuni Buddha speaking in the LIfe Span chapter. Also, the explicit equation of the sutra with reality itself.

Aside, reflecting on the Sadaparibhuta chapter - he says, "I don't ridicule you - you will be a buddha."

For those steeped in Mahayana, this sounds ridiculous. Kind of. I imagine though, that when this sutra was circulating for the first time with its predictions of Buddhahood for Shariputra and the other arhats, it would have sounded outlandish - why would arhats be given predictions of Buddhahood? It would have been fighting words - maybe something that would get you chased out of the monastery. Just random thoughts.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Translations of the Lotus Sutra - which is suitable for beginners?

Post by karmanyingpo »

Queequeg wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 2:08 pm Tibetans in general don't think much of the Lotus Sutra. (See here; Then there is this) In East Asia it is possibly the most influential text.
Fascinating reading! Thx for sharing. I have been wondering how the Lotus Sutra interfaces with TB.

KN
ma lu dzok pe san gye thop par shok!
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Re: Translations of the Lotus Sutra - which is suitable for beginners?

Post by Malcolm »

Queequeg wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 5:08 pm Intro to the translation of the Tibetan at 84000 is indeed good. The question about the Devadatta section missing from the Kumarajiva translation is interesting. It also lacks sections in the Medicinal Herbs chapter. Kumarajiva was from Kucha.
What's even more interesting is that the missing parts were cobbled onto the Kumarjiva recension to make it more "complete."
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Re: Translations of the Lotus Sutra - which is suitable for beginners?

Post by Queequeg »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 8:52 pm
Queequeg wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 5:08 pm Intro to the translation of the Tibetan at 84000 is indeed good. The question about the Devadatta section missing from the Kumarajiva translation is interesting. It also lacks sections in the Medicinal Herbs chapter. Kumarajiva was from Kucha.
What's even more interesting is that the missing parts were cobbled onto the Kumarjiva recension to make it more "complete."
Gotta redeem those icchantikas.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Translations of the Lotus Sutra - which is suitable for beginners?

Post by Aemilius »

Queequeg wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 5:08 pm Intro to the translation of the Tibetan at 84000 is indeed good. The question about the Devadatta section missing from the Kumarajiva translation is interesting. It also lacks sections in the Medicinal Herbs chapter. Kumarajiva was from Kucha. No Sanskrit text that matches Kumarajiva's translation has been found. The theory is that the version he translated is a version that predates the existing Sanskrit versions.

Interesting that the translation from Tibetan makes certain points that are only indirect in the Kumarajiva - such as Dipamkara being an emanation of the Shakyamuni Buddha speaking in the LIfe Span chapter. Also, the explicit equation of the sutra with reality itself.

Aside, reflecting on the Sadaparibhuta chapter - he says, "I don't ridicule you - you will be a buddha."

For those steeped in Mahayana, this sounds ridiculous. Kind of. I imagine though, that when this sutra was circulating for the first time with its predictions of Buddhahood for Shariputra and the other arhats, it would have sounded outlandish - why would arhats be given predictions of Buddhahood? It would have been fighting words - maybe something that would get you chased out of the monastery. Just random thoughts.
If you are acquainted with the The Five Theses of Mahadeva, that caused the split into the Mahasanghika and Sthaviravada, you would understand that quite soon after the Parinirvana of Shakyamuni, it had become widely known that the so called "Arhats" didn't seem to be like the Arhats that are described in the Sutras. So much so, that a vast majority of the Sangha voted for the acceptance of Mahadeva's theses. (See for example Etienne Lamotte's History of Buddhism in India). This being the case, it would seem that the common view was that there was still room for progress for those known as Arhats in the early Sangha.
It is difficult to know what the system was like in the early Sangha. These days almost no one is declared to be an Arhat, i.e. no publicly known Arhats (or Non-returners etc...) do exist. Well known Buddhists like for example Sravasti Dhammika go so far that they declare that "they have not yet attained the Dhyanas"!! How should one think about this?? The consensus seems to be that all spiritual attainments are private or secret matters.
Anyway, the point is that in the early Sangha the situation was not like it is today. And it had certain consequences.
svaha
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They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
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Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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Re: Translations of the Lotus Sutra - which is suitable for beginners?

Post by Queequeg »

In Buddhist texts, especially Mahayana Sutras, the fantastical is used as a literary device to convey what is profound and sublime. No less in the Lotus Sutra that describes a massive stupa that literally is half the size of the Earth and emerges out of the ground and floats up into the air. The thing is, these are elaborate stories - the Lotus itself all but explains that these are stories; "the buddha employs upaya". Problems arise when people take the stories literally. So the Buddha has to finally explain - "I am Dipamkara, along with all the other great beings I tell you about. I tell you these stories to prepare you to hear the truth."

I'm familiar with Mahadeva. He basically was bringing a needle to the fantastical balloon of ideas about arhats. Of course there are no more arhats once the idea of an arhat becomes so disconnected from reality.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Translations of the Lotus Sutra - which is suitable for beginners?

Post by LastLegend »

Avalokitesvara has become a Buddha eons ago, why is she considered a Bodhisattva?
It’s eye blinking.
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Re: Translations of the Lotus Sutra - which is suitable for beginners?

Post by tkp67 »

Sometime into my practice of Nichiren buddhism I had opened up to a close friend about how much the practice resonated with me. Because of the vilification of Nichiren buddhism on the internet I wasn't quite comfortable suggesting it without further understanding but I did suggest he read the Lotus Sutra. He bought it and read it completely.

Many years later and quite recently I was talking about some subtle conditioning aspects of the mind and touched on the lotus sutra using an provisional analogy of the buddha and he made sure to clarify that buddha revealed he was enlightened in an unfathomable time in the past.

I think It goes to show you never know what people take away from words.

I have to ask what copy but I am fairly certain it had BDK on the binder if that means anything.
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Re: Translations of the Lotus Sutra - which is suitable for beginners?

Post by GrapeLover »

LastLegend wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 10:51 pm Avalokitesvara has become a Buddha eons ago, why is she considered a Bodhisattva?
I think the Karandavyuha Sutra is relevant here when it says “he teaches the Dharma in the form of a bodhisattva to beings who are to be taught by a bodhisattva”—the form of Avalokitesvara that we’re familiar with is that of a bodhisattva, which he adopts because it’s the best way for him to help particular beings. Similarly, it says he teaches in the form of various gods, people’s parents, soldiers, etc, for those who will be best benefitted by those forms. But he isn’t intrinsically any of these things.

So, long story short, we consider him as a bodhisattva because that is the guise and role he takes on most commonly in the Mahayana canon, though it is only a role.
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