Different Sets of the Bodhisattva Vows

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Könchok Thrinley
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Different Sets of the Bodhisattva Vows

Post by Könchok Thrinley »

Hi,

I have noticed that in Brahma Net Sutra there is quite significantly different set of Bodhisattva vows than the one I was taught within the Tibetan tradition. Why is it so? I have also found in The Vows of the Three Vehicles Chandragomin's The Twenty Verses on the Bodhisattva Vows and there only 4 root bodhisattva downfalls are listed:

Out of desire for gain and respect
Praising oneself and denigrating others;
Out of stinginess, not giving Dharma and wealth
To the suffering beings lacking protection;

No paying attention to others' confessions and
Beating them out of agression;
Abandoning the Mahayana and
Teaching a mere imitation of the sacred Dharma.

[If these transgressions happen], the vows should be taken again.
(p.56)

Which are only the first 4 downfalls out of the 18 that are usually taught. The text then goes on listing the secondary downfalls.

I mostly really wonder how did we arrive to take up 18 major downfalls instead of having 10 vows like they are found in Brahma Net Sutra, or only 4 major downfalls like Chandragomin lists.
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

For those who do virtuous actions,
goodness is what comes to pass.
For those who do non-virtuous actions,
that becomes suffering indeed.

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Re: Different Sets of the Bodhisattva Vows

Post by Redfaery »

I am fairly certain that the Brahma's net sutra is considered to have been composed later, and the vows are only part of the sutra itself, which is apparently so garbled in surviving editions that translators have a hard time making sense of it.

Not sure if this would answer your question, but it's something that caught my interest.
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Re: Different Sets of the Bodhisattva Vows

Post by WeiHan »

In tibetan buddhism, there are the tradition of Asanga and the tradition of Nagarjuna. The 20 vows that you were talking about should be from the tradition of Nagarjuna if I am not the wrong. The 4 condensed root downfalls that you mentioned is from the tradition of Asanga. It can be further condensed into one vow: Not to forsake any single sentient being. A detailed explanation of both of these traditions can be found in the book "Perfect Conduct:Ascertaining the Three Vows".
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FiveSkandhas
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Re: Different Sets of the Bodhisattva Vows

Post by FiveSkandhas »

Correct me if I'm wrong but there seems to be a difference between "Bodhisattva Precepts" and the "Bodhisattva Vow(s)."

There appear to be a variety of versions of both categories. And the two terms seem frequently confused.

My limited understanding is The Bodhisattva Vow (or sometimes vows) is a much simpler formulation then the Precepts. There is a version in the Flower Garland Sutra and a fourfold Bodhisattva Vow(s?) formulated by Zhiyi

Not sure at all how the Tibetans cut this particular cake.
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Re: Different Sets of the Bodhisattva Vows

Post by WeiHan »

FiveSkandhas wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 6:39 pm Correct me if I'm wrong but there seems to be a difference between "Bodhisattva Precepts" and the "Bodhisattva Vow(s)."

There appear to be a variety of versions of both categories. And the two terms seem frequently confused.

My limited understanding is The Bodhisattva Vow (or sometimes vows) is a much simpler formulation then the Precepts. There is a version in the Flower Garland Sutra and a fourfold Bodhisattva Vow(s?) formulated by Zhiyi

Not sure at all how the Tibetans cut this particular cake.
In Tibetan Buddhism, vows and precepts are used interchangeably, at least from the book I refer to above. You probably mean vows just embodies the spirit while precepts are more detailed and specific? However, in tibetan buddhism, one is allowed to just take up one precept, that is: not to forsake any one sentient being. I will check the book again when I have the time tomorrow.
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Re: Different Sets of the Bodhisattva Vows

Post by duckling »

Könchok Thrinley wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 10:24 pm I have noticed that in Brahma Net Sutra
Glad you are enjoying the books I sent you !
Redfaery wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 11:32 pm I am fairly certain that the Brahma's net sutra is considered to have been composed later, and the vows are only part of the sutra itself,
Except that kumarajiva and asanga lives at about the same time...
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Re: Different Sets of the Bodhisattva Vows

Post by Gregory Wonderwheel »

Yes, it is important to distinguish between vows and precepts. In the Brahma Net Sutra, the Buddha vows to follow the precepts that are listed as 10 major and 48 minor. These are universal precepts and a general vow to live by them. The vows to follow the precepts are not the same as the proclamation of the Bodhisattva's personal vows.
The 10 Great Vows of a Bodhisattva (such as Samantrabhadra's 10 Great Vows in the Flower Garland Sutra) are personal vows each Bodhisattva makes according to their own circumstances, often when the Buddha announces their future Buddhahood. There is no "one size fits all" when it comes to the Bodhisattva's personal vows.
In the Sutra of Queen Srimala's Lion's Roar, Queen Srimala has her own 10 Great Proclamations (i.e., Vows):

So at that time, having heard and received the sign [of distinction of her future Buddhahood], Srimala then reverently established and proclaimed ten great proclamations:

[1] “World Honored One, from today, henceforth until awakening* (bodhi), I do not arouse an offending mind toward that which are the received precepts.

[2] “World Honored One, from today, henceforth until awakening, I do not arouse a prideful mind toward all the honored seniors.

[3] “World Honored One, from today, henceforth until awakening, I do not arouse a hating mind toward all the multitude of beings.

[4] “World Honored One, from today, henceforth until awakening, I do not arouse an envious mind toward another’s bodily form as well as their external multiple endowments.

[5] “World Honored One, from today, henceforth until awakening, I do not arouse a stingy mind toward internal and external things* (dharmas).

[6] “World Honored One, from today, henceforth until awakening, I do not receive animals or objects of wealth on my own or for myself, but what I ordinarily have which is received is wholly for the development of the poor and suffering multitude of beings.

[7] “World Honored One, from today, henceforth until awakening, I do not practice the four embracing Dharmas on my own or for myself, because they are for all the multitude of beings, and by means of a mind not stained by craving, an indefatigable mind, and an unimpeded mind, I include the multitude of beings.

[8] “World Honored One, from today, henceforth until awakening, if I see the suffering multitude of beings who are lonely, confined, bound, obstructed by diseases of every type, in difficulties, and destitute, then to the final end I do not even briefly reject them and certainly desire their peaceful rest, that by the use of the benefits of meaning they are made released from the multitude of sufferings. So only afterwards will I renounce [life].

[9] “World Honored One, from today, henceforth until awakening, if I see the multitudes in wicked occupations, such as the catching and keeping [of animals], as well as the various offences against the precepts, then to the final end I do not abandon them, and at the time I gain power and at all those places I see this multitude of beings, those who should be subdued are then subdued, and those who should be included are then included! Because why? Because by means of “subduing and including” the Dharma is allowed to long abide. The heavenly-beings and humans become completely full of that which is the Dharma long abiding, and wicked ways diminish to few. That ability to turn the wheel of the Dharma is from the Tathagata, and then one is able to continue the turning. Because to see this is beneficial, the saving and embracing [of beings] are not renounced.

[10] “World Honored One, from today, henceforth until awakening, I Accept the Real Dharma* and to the final end will not forget or neglect it. Because why? Those who forget and neglect the Dharma, by that standard are forgetting the Great Vehicle. Those who forget the Great Vehicle, by that standard are forgetting the crossings-over* (paramitas). Those who forget the crossings-over, by that standard do not desire the Great Vehicle. If bodhisattvas* are not those who are firmly resolved in the Great Vehicle, by that standard they are unable to attain the desire to Accept the Real Dharma. They actually follow the entering of enjoyments and are forever not worthy of surpassing the state of an ordinary fellow, which as I see it, is an immeasurably great error, and also, I see they have not yet come to Accept the Real Dharma.
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Re: Different Sets of the Bodhisattva Vows

Post by Malcolm »

FiveSkandhas wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 6:39 pm Correct me if I'm wrong but there seems to be a difference between "Bodhisattva Precepts" and the "Bodhisattva Vow(s)."
The term in Sanskirt is saṃvara, which means restraint, hence we have the bodhisattva saṃvara, "the restraints of a bodhisattva." "Precepts" and "vows" are just English renderings of the same Sanskrit term.
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Re: Different Sets of the Bodhisattva Vows

Post by Leo Rivers »

The Brahma Net Sutra is in 2 parts. The first is an Avatamsaka type exposion and is indeed supposed to be confused. The second is often translated separately and is supposed to be quite alright.

PDF https://bdkamerica.org/download/1959 :smile:

I have been studying this

PDF https://bdkamerica.org/download/1859
Taishō 1488

Volume 24

The Sutra on Upāsaka Precepts sets forth the moral code to be observed by lay Buddhists. The word upāsaka in the title is Sanskrit for layman. In the sūtra, Sujāta is taught the moral code to be observed by lay followers of Buddhism. Therefore the text is also known as the Sujāta-sūtra after the central figure. Prescribing the moral code as so-called Mahāyāna Precepts or Bodhisattva Precepts, the work was especially valued in Mahāyānist China.

This work is considered to be an augmentation and adaptation on Mahāyānist principles of the Sujāta-sūtra found in the Dīrghāgama (Taishō 1), Madhyamāgama (Taishō 2), and other works. Because of this relationship to previous texts, and because the quotations it shares from various Mahāyāna sūtras, The Sutra on Upāsaka Precepts provides valuable source material for tracing the history of the development of the Buddhist canon.

Source
Skt. Upāsakaśīla-sūtra. Translated into the Chinese by Dharmakṣema as Youposaijie jing (優婆塞戒經). 7 fascicles.
I want to take the Upāsakaśīla lay person's vows.... but have long gotten out of touch with any sangha her in Eugene. [grim experience]
... we do have two reputable Zen centres, but I don't know what's possible that way and I'm an incremental kind of guy. :namaste:
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Re: Different Sets of the Bodhisattva Vows

Post by Malcolm »

Leo Rivers wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 8:04 pm The Brahma Net Sutra is in 2 parts. The first is an Avatamsaka type exposion and is indeed supposed to be confused. The second is often translated separately and is supposed to be quite alright.

PDF https://bdkamerica.org/download/1959 :smile:

I have been studying this

PDF https://bdkamerica.org/download/1859
Taishō 1488

Volume 24

The Sutra on Upāsaka Precepts sets forth the moral code to be observed by lay Buddhists. The word upāsaka in the title is Sanskrit for layman. In the sūtra, Sujāta is taught the moral code to be observed by lay followers of Buddhism. Therefore the text is also known as the Sujāta-sūtra after the central figure. Prescribing the moral code as so-called Mahāyāna Precepts or Bodhisattva Precepts, the work was especially valued in Mahāyānist China.

This work is considered to be an augmentation and adaptation on Mahāyānist principles of the Sujāta-sūtra found in the Dīrghāgama (Taishō 1), Madhyamāgama (Taishō 2), and other works. Because of this relationship to previous texts, and because the quotations it shares from various Mahāyāna sūtras, The Sutra on Upāsaka Precepts provides valuable source material for tracing the history of the development of the Buddhist canon.

Source
Skt. Upāsakaśīla-sūtra. Translated into the Chinese by Dharmakṣema as Youposaijie jing (優婆塞戒經). 7 fascicles.
I want to take the Upāsakaśīla lay person's vows.... but have long gotten out of touch with any sangha her in Eugene. [grim experience]
... we do have two reputable Zen centres, but I don't know what's possible that way and I'm an incremental kind of guy. :namaste:
In Mahāyāna you can take the bodhisattva vows without a preceptor, and they include the lay vows.
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Re: Different Sets of the Bodhisattva Vows

Post by Leo Rivers »

Thanks Malcolm... this never occured to me. But I think going through looking at the sanghas in my environment is worth trying first. I have no idea, beyond two Zen groups and five Tibetan tantric groups what's out there in the Eugene Oregon area. I know Hosso still somewhat exists in Japan, but here in Northwest? I would be floored. :namaste:
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Re: Different Sets of the Bodhisattva Vows

Post by Malcolm »

Leo Rivers wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 4:19 am Thanks Malcolm... this never occured to me. But I think going through looking at the sanghas in my environment is worth trying first. I have no idea, beyond two Zen groups and five Tibetan tantric groups what's out there in the Eugene Oregon area. I know Hosso still somewhat exists in Japan, but here in Northwest? I would be floored. :namaste:
The yogacara bodhisattva vows are given in Geluk. There is a Geluk center in Portland.

Otherwise, upasaka vows can be received from any upasaka, as long as they know how to impart them correctly.

And if you’ve ever attended any kind of empowerment at all, you have them already. And they are restored by the simple act of reciting the seven limb prayer.
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Re: Different Sets of the Bodhisattva Vows

Post by Tata1 »

Leo Rivers wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 4:19 am Thanks Malcolm... this never occured to me. But I think going through looking at the sanghas in my environment is worth trying first. I have no idea, beyond two Zen groups and five Tibetan tantric groups what's out there in the Eugene Oregon area. I know Hosso still somewhat exists in Japan, but here in Northwest? I would be floored. :namaste:
Mingyur Rinpoche is giving boddhisattva vows this Saturday via zoom
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Leo Rivers
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Re: Different Sets of the Bodhisattva Vows

Post by Leo Rivers »

Thanks all. But I was not clear. :rolleye: I was broaching a second topic.

Yes I was asking about the upasaka vows, but...
... I was also curious uf the Hosso tradition was represented in the USA.
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Re: Different Sets of the Bodhisattva Vows

Post by bowsamic »

When I was in a Soto Zen sangha we did the following set of four Bodhisattva vows:

Sentient beings are numberless; I vow to save them.
Desires are inexhaustible; I vow to put an end to them.
The Dharmas are boundless; I vow to master them.
The Buddha Way is unattainable; I vow to attain it.

https://zmm.org/teachings-and-training/ ... ttva-vows/
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Leo Rivers
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Re: Different Sets of the Bodhisattva Vows

Post by Leo Rivers »

This essense committment I've seen several places. It's said about as well as this sentiment could be said.

Leo :applause:
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