Mahayana Mahaparinirvana Sutra

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anagarika
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Mahayana Mahaparinirvana Sutra

Post by anagarika »

I´ve recently come across this essay whose title strikes me as very... non-Buddhist, to say the least :D. It is called "Affirmation of Eternal Self in the Mahāyāna Mahaparinirvana Sutra":

https://www.bu.ac.th/knowledgecenter/ep ... age_47.pdf

I know that Mahayana puts great emphasis on the Buddha nature, but the author of this paper argues that this sutra goes even further and asserts an eternal, non-changing Self common and inherent to all beings. There have been various translations and versions of this sutra (Tibetan, Chinese, ...), but I am going to pick a few quotes from it (as quoted in the essay) that I find, mildly speaking, confusing:
The tathāgata-garbha is the intrinsic nature [svabhāva] of beings.
The tathāgata-garbha is like this, for it cannot be harmed by the sharp weapons of the devas and maras (gods and devils). It only nurtures the person, and anything that can be harmed or damaged is not the tathāgata-dhātu. Hence, you should know that the tathāgata-dhātu cannot be harmed or killed.
By having cultivated non-Self with reference to the tathāgata-dhātu and having continually cultivated Emptiness, suffering will not be eradicated, but one will become like a moth in the flame of a lamp.
Noble son, that which is endowed with the Eternal, Bliss, the Self and Purity is stated to be the meaning of the ‘real truth’
Just as the wrestler had the idea - due to his impaired thinking - that he had lost the diamond, even though it was lodged in his body, similarly worldly beings do not comprehend the Self’s Reality (ātma-tattva); they fall under the sway of unwholesome friends and do not understand the [Tathāgata’s] utterances with underlying meaning; they meditatively cultivate the notion that they lack the Self, even though there is the Self.
To me it sounds like pure brahmanism/advaita. It is the only sutra I can think of that seems to explicitly assert an inherent essence (svabhava), eternal Self, unchanging nature. This is in sharp contrast to all sutras in the Pali canon where Buddha always advocates the anti-eternalist idea of anatman and absence of any eternal self. All other sutras speak of the 5 aggregates, emptiness of all dharmas, lack of inherent essence and the liberating effect of non-fabricating a ficticious self. In Theravada, abandoning of ANY idea of self is seen as a prerequisite for the first stage of enlightenment. And of course even all Mahayana schools accept that there is no svabhava (in spite of different names for it). This sutra goes in the totally opposite direction, which has even soteriological implications ("By having cultivated non-Self with reference to the tathāgata-dhātu and having continually cultivated Emptiness, suffering will not be eradicated, but one will become like a moth in the flame of a lamp").

Can anyone competent in the Mahayana canon explain how this sutra is reconciled with the teachings of emptiness and anatman? Or is it seen as somewhat "apocryphal"? Whichever way I try to read it, it sounds more like Adi Shankara or something along these lines to me...
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Re: Mahayana Mahaparinirvana Sutra

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

anagarika wrote: Thu Jan 28, 2021 10:55 pm

Can anyone competent in the Mahayana canon explain how this sutra is reconciled with the teachings of emptiness and anatman? Or is it seen as somewhat "apocryphal"? Whichever way I try to read it, it sounds more like Adi Shankara or something along these lines to me...
You really have to understand that the Mahayana is not a Monolith, there are a huge number of sutras and commentaries, and a wide range of understandings of them. Trying to find a literal consistency throughout the Mahayana canon is an exercise in madness.

Typically, in my experience schools like Tibetan Buddhism -where the majority tends to favor a certain approach- will see statements like this as upaya, and not to be taken definitively. On the other hand, some minority Tibetan schools as well as some East Asian schools -do- pretty much take it as definitive. Meaning, there are Mahayana Buddhists who do in fact hold a view relatively close to Vedanta, to varying degrees, and with some qualifying features.

You can read up on the Shentong vs Rangtong threads if you want an example of this sort of conversation within the Mahayana. It uses pretty different terms than vedanta, and even the most eternalist versions tend to qualify "eternal" a lot more than what I know of Advaita.

So yes, to some people it is a definitive statement or something very close. To others, not so much. Generally speaking, those who take it literally seem to consistently be a smallish minority...but often a vocal one.

Just to throw a monkey wrench in things for fun, yeah, the Buddha taught anatman in the Pali Canon, but he also talked about "the Deathless" in a fairly affirming manner in a number of places. So, while official Theravada may have claimed to solve the the apparent discrepancy, I'd say the same debate is still theoretically "under the hood" to some degree, so to speak. Just depends on how much you want to split hairs.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

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Re: Mahayana Mahaparinirvana Sutra

Post by Queequeg »

anagarika wrote: Thu Jan 28, 2021 10:55 pm I´ve recently come across this essay whose title strikes me as very... non-Buddhist, to say the least :D. It is called "Affirmation of Eternal Self in the Mahāyāna Mahaparinirvana Sutra":

https://www.bu.ac.th/knowledgecenter/ep ... age_47.pdf

I know that Mahayana puts great emphasis on the Buddha nature, but the author of this paper argues that this sutra goes even further and asserts an eternal, non-changing Self common and inherent to all beings. There have been various translations and versions of this sutra (Tibetan, Chinese, ...), but I am going to pick a few quotes from it (as quoted in the essay) that I find, mildly speaking, confusing:
The tathāgata-garbha is the intrinsic nature [svabhāva] of beings.
The tathāgata-garbha is like this, for it cannot be harmed by the sharp weapons of the devas and maras (gods and devils). It only nurtures the person, and anything that can be harmed or damaged is not the tathāgata-dhātu. Hence, you should know that the tathāgata-dhātu cannot be harmed or killed.
By having cultivated non-Self with reference to the tathāgata-dhātu and having continually cultivated Emptiness, suffering will not be eradicated, but one will become like a moth in the flame of a lamp.
Noble son, that which is endowed with the Eternal, Bliss, the Self and Purity is stated to be the meaning of the ‘real truth’
Just as the wrestler had the idea - due to his impaired thinking - that he had lost the diamond, even though it was lodged in his body, similarly worldly beings do not comprehend the Self’s Reality (ātma-tattva); they fall under the sway of unwholesome friends and do not understand the [Tathāgata’s] utterances with underlying meaning; they meditatively cultivate the notion that they lack the Self, even though there is the Self.
To me it sounds like pure brahmanism/advaita. It is the only sutra I can think of that seems to explicitly assert an inherent essence (svabhava), eternal Self, unchanging nature. This is in sharp contrast to all sutras in the Pali canon where Buddha always advocates the anti-eternalist idea of anatman and absence of any eternal self. All other sutras speak of the 5 aggregates, emptiness of all dharmas, lack of inherent essence and the liberating effect of non-fabricating a ficticious self. In Theravada, abandoning of ANY idea of self is seen as a prerequisite for the first stage of enlightenment. And of course even all Mahayana schools accept that there is no svabhava (in spite of different names for it). This sutra goes in the totally opposite direction, which has even soteriological implications ("By having cultivated non-Self with reference to the tathāgata-dhātu and having continually cultivated Emptiness, suffering will not be eradicated, but one will become like a moth in the flame of a lamp").

Can anyone competent in the Mahayana canon explain how this sutra is reconciled with the teachings of emptiness and anatman? Or is it seen as somewhat "apocryphal"? Whichever way I try to read it, it sounds more like Adi Shankara or something along these lines to me...
Ignore Dr. Tony Page.

If you actually read the text, even the one Page edited, it is clear that the "True Self" is actually the "non-self", just a way to talk about it in positive terms.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
anagarika
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Re: Mahayana Mahaparinirvana Sutra

Post by anagarika »


Ignore Dr. Tony Page.

If you actually read the text, even the one Page edited, it is clear that the "True Self" is actually the "non-self", just a way to talk about it in positive terms.
This was of course one of the ways of reading the sutra I tried, but even then the sutra speaks clearly against the cultivation of emptiness as being useless from the soteriological point of view... this makes things a bit trickier because it is now not merely a linguistic debate about negation/affirmation but a polemic with the method of liberation. Emptiness is said to be not conducive to it which is a radical departure from basic tenets of Buddhism (regardless of specific school).
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Re: Mahayana Mahaparinirvana Sutra

Post by anagarika »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Thu Jan 28, 2021 11:02 pm
anagarika wrote: Thu Jan 28, 2021 10:55 pm

Can anyone competent in the Mahayana canon explain how this sutra is reconciled with the teachings of emptiness and anatman? Or is it seen as somewhat "apocryphal"? Whichever way I try to read it, it sounds more like Adi Shankara or something along these lines to me...
You really have to understand that the Mahayana is not a Monolith, there are a huge number of sutras and commentaries, and a wide range of understandings of them. Trying to find a literal consistency throughout the Mahayana canon is an exercise in madness.

Typically, in my experience schools like Tibetan Buddhism -where the majority tends to favor a certain approach- will see statements like this as upaya, and not to be taken definitively. On the other hand, some minority Tibetan schools as well as some East Asian schools -do- pretty much take it as definitive. Meaning, there are Mahayana Buddhists who do in fact hold a view relatively close to Vedanta, to varying degrees, and with some qualifying features.

You can read up on the Shentong vs Rangtong threads if you want an example of this sort of conversation within the Mahayana. It uses pretty different terms than vedanta, and even the most eternalist versions tend to qualify "eternal" a lot more than what I know of Advaita.

So yes, to some people it is a definitive statement or something very close. To others, not so much. Generally speaking, those who take it literally seem to consistently be a minority...but often a vocal one.

Just to throw a monkey wrench in things for fun, yeah, the Buddha taught anatman in the Pali Canon, but he also talked about "the Deathless" in a fairly affirming manner in a number of places. So, while official Theravada may have claimed to solve the the apparent discrepancy, I'd say the same debate is still theoretically "under the hood" to some degree, so to speak. Just depends on how much you want to split hairs.
Of course I do realize that Mahayana is vast and incredibly varied. Just as Christianity, for instance. But similarly to Christianity there are some axioms that are shared across the schools. Buddhism is a useless term really, but all the schools within it somehow relate to the teachings of the Buddha. And the essence of the teachings of the Buddha was that there was no essence :D Even though this can lead to different practical conclusions, if you take this element out, you can't really speak about any kind of Buddhism anymore because this is what differentiates it from all other religions.

You are also right to point out that there is a similar debate going on within Theravada, but on a slightly different level. There are two views of what happens after parinirvana - one closer to the "eternalist" position, the other one to the "annihilationist" position. The first approach stresses the blissful aspect of nirvana, the other one the cessation. But the Buddha himself never spoke about it so it should not distract us from practice :D
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Re: Mahayana Mahaparinirvana Sutra

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

I think this is an example of a commonly made mistake in interpretation. Tathagatagharba isn’t a thing like some kind of existing essence. It’s the true nature of mind.
It’s like talking about the loudness of the sound from a stereo speaker. The sound itself has no permanent qualities, no shape or color (some LSD users might disagree), but it can be described as being loud.
So, all this talk about the tathagatagharba being described as infinite and ever present, or one’s true nature or whatever, it’s like that.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
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Re: Mahayana Mahaparinirvana Sutra

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

anagarika wrote: Thu Jan 28, 2021 11:36 pm

Of course I do realize that Mahayana is vast and incredibly varied. Just as Christianity, for instance. But similarly to Christianity there are some axioms that are shared across the schools. Buddhism is a useless term really, but all the schools within it somehow relate to the teachings of the Buddha. And the essence of the teachings of the Buddha was that there was no essence :D Even though this can lead to different practical conclusions, if you take this element out, you can't really speak about any kind of Buddhism anymore because this is what differentiates it from all other religions.

There are indeed some people within Mahayana Buddhism that hold something approaching (though perhaps not equivalent to) views expressed in Advaita. They are a minority but they are there it seems. The super-simple version of the argument is that all the analysis of the emptiness of inherent existence applies to phenomena, but does not apply to Buddha Nature/Nirvana..etc.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

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Re: Mahayana Mahaparinirvana Sutra

Post by narhwal90 »

From the BDK translation, Fascicle 2, page 67. Note the use of self and non-self as upaya. That theme appears several times elsewhere in the sutra, the author of the paper touches on it but seems more interested in the analytical wordplay.

Monks, the heterodox paths affirm a “self” in the same manner as
[some infer literacy in] the shapes of letters incised into wood accidentally
by insects. This is why the Tathagata proclaims “nonself” as part of his
buddha-dharma. It is because I need to straighten out [the thinking] of
living beings—because I am aware of their situation—that I expound
the absence of self. There are reasons why I also expound the presence
of self, just like that skilled physician who was well aware that milk
may be either medicinal or nonmedicinal.
But what I am speaking of is not what ordinary people imagine the
self to be. Ordinary people or ignorant people suppose the self to be the
size of a thumb, or perhaps a mustard seed, or a speck of dust. What the
Tathagata explains the self to be is nothing like that. Therefore when I
preach “dharmas are without self,” in truth they are not without self.
So what is this self [of which I now speak]? If a dharma is true, real,
permanent, autonomous, a basis, and its nature is immutable, then that
is what I call self. Just like that great physician who correctly appreciated
the [genuine] medicinal value of milk, for the sake of living beings the
Tathagata similarly expounds the presence of a true and real self in dharmas.
This is how you four groups of followers should practice the dharma.
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Re: Mahayana Mahaparinirvana Sutra

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

You can read up on the Shentong vs Rangtong threads if you want an example of this sort of conversation within the Mahayana.
Just make sure to take some Xanax before you start.

(Only joking.)
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Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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Re: Mahayana Mahaparinirvana Sutra

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

Here’s an academic speed rapping on the subject of Buddha Nature and Self in early Indian Sutras:

https://buddhanature.tsadra.org/index. ... Symposium
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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Re: Mahayana Mahaparinirvana Sutra

Post by Svalaksana »

I had asked this question before in the Books thread, but since I received no answer perhaps I'll have better luck here:

Are there other translations of the Mahaparinirvana Sutra, other than the (pricey) BDK edition or the translation from Dr. Tony Duff, which from what I understand, bears some "uncertainties", let's say?
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Re: Mahayana Mahaparinirvana Sutra

Post by anagarika »

Manjushri wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 12:19 pm I had asked this question before in the Books thread, but since I received no answer perhaps I'll have better luck here:

Are there other translations of the Mahaparinirvana Sutra, other than the (pricey) BDK edition or the translation from Dr. Tony Duff, which from what I understand, bears some "uncertainties", let's say?

I found this one:

http://lirs.ru/do/Mahaparinirvana_Sutra ... e,2007.pdf

But I´m not sure if this really is the text - I mean, is it possible that one single sutra is really so voluminous? :O It´s more than 500 pages!
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Re: Mahayana Mahaparinirvana Sutra

Post by narhwal90 »

Manjushri wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 12:19 pm I had asked this question before in the Books thread, but since I received no answer perhaps I'll have better luck here:

Are there other translations of the Mahaparinirvana Sutra, other than the (pricey) BDK edition or the translation from Dr. Tony Duff, which from what I understand, bears some "uncertainties", let's say?
BDK Nirvana sutra as pdf is available free here

https://bdkamerica.org/product/the-nirvana-sutra-vol-i/
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Re: Mahayana Mahaparinirvana Sutra

Post by Queequeg »

Second the BDK recommendation. So far only vol 1 has been published. In regards to the size, it is voluminous. 500 pages plus sounds right.

My understanding, MHPNS criticizes the negative approach of emptiness analysis. It serves a purpose of countering mistaken notions about the essential nature of dharmas, but it's not nihilism, right? If all you have is deconstructive analysis, the effect is not necessarily desirable. It's referred to as emptiness sickness. But, in that analysis, something always remains though it defies conventional definitions. Tathagatagarbha as I understand refers to that implicit remainder. That, according to Tathagatagarbha teachings is the domain of practice. Not emptiness itself.

In other words, Tathagatagarbha teaching are therapies for a misguided view of emptiness.

Unfortunately people grasp it as something. Those people need the therapy of emptiness.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Mahayana Mahaparinirvana Sutra

Post by Svalaksana »

Thank you for the suggestions. I see I have no choice but to acquire BDK's version, which I was trying to avoid because of its price and supposed incompleteness, but that will have to do, I guess.
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Re: Mahayana Mahaparinirvana Sutra

Post by GrapeLover »

Manjushri wrote: Mon Feb 01, 2021 11:18 am Thank you for the suggestions. I see I have no choice but to acquire BDK's version, which I was trying to avoid because of its price and supposed incompleteness, but that will have to do, I guess.
Did you see that the PDF is free? Definitely understand if you would just prefer a hard copy
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Re: Mahayana Mahaparinirvana Sutra

Post by Svalaksana »

GrapeLover wrote: Mon Feb 01, 2021 11:30 am
Manjushri wrote: Mon Feb 01, 2021 11:18 am Thank you for the suggestions. I see I have no choice but to acquire BDK's version, which I was trying to avoid because of its price and supposed incompleteness, but that will have to do, I guess.
Did you see that the PDF is free? Definitely understand if you would just prefer a hard copy
Yes, but unfortunately I have not been able to accustomize to reading long texts on a screen, whether laptop or tablet, as it bothers my eyes after a while, especially with long texts. I'm also used to make notes on the sides and highlight passages, hence why that option won't suit me. In any case, thank you for the suggestion.
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Speaking but not expressing - that's my tongue.
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Re: Mahayana Mahaparinirvana Sutra

Post by Zhen Li »

Manjushri wrote: Mon Feb 01, 2021 11:52 am Yes, but unfortunately I have not been able to accustomize to reading long texts on a screen, whether laptop or tablet, as it bothers my eyes after a while, especially with long texts. I'm also used to make notes on the sides and highlight passages, hence why that option won't suit me. In any case, thank you for the suggestion.
I'm going to fall down on the side of sticking to the Yamamoto/Page translation for now. There are two reasons I say this. There are numerous points where the Yamamoto/Page translation is clearer or just translated more elegantly—there are some places where this is not the case, but I found more idiosyncrasies in Blum's BDK translation that I am not getting on board with it yet. The second is that it is complete.

I think because the Yamamoto/Page translation lacks an introduction, notes, or index, it doesn't come across as scholarly and thus there has been an attempt to ignore it among some, but if you actually read it and compare it to the Chinese and BDK translations, you'll see that it is complete and a fine representation of the original. You won't find any doctrinal variations from the BDK translation, and 95% of the time the wording is almost exactly the same—I'm not claiming Blum is using Yamamoto as a reference, because he's clearly able to translate from scratch, but when you get three competent translators and one source text, you should end up with the same result.

For reading long texts, sort out a way to get text to speech enabled on your device. This will save your eyes both from books and screens. The sutras, in particular, are meant to be listened to, not read in the modern way. All references to the use of texts in classical and medieval India appear to indicate that manuscripts are used for recitation out loud.

If you have an apple device, text to speech functions are all built in and you can select voices and speeds that are suitable for you.
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Re: Mahayana Mahaparinirvana Sutra

Post by Malcolm »

Queequeg wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 5:54 pm
In other words, Tathagatagarbha teaching are therapies for a misguided view of emptiness.

Unfortunately people grasp it as something. Those people need the therapy of emptiness.
According to the Lanka, it is a doctrine for those afraid of emptiness, therefore provisional.
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Re: Mahayana Mahaparinirvana Sutra

Post by ThreeVows »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Feb 03, 2021 1:03 pm According to the Lanka, it is a doctrine for those afraid of emptiness, therefore provisional.
According to Longchenpa, the TTG Sutras are the definitive ones. FWIW. I'm sure you know that.
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