Questions about "Early" as in early early.

Discuss and learn about the traditional Mahayana scriptures, without assuming that any one school ‘owns’ the only correct interpretation.
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Caoimhghín
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Re: Questions about "Early" as in early early.

Post by Caoimhghín »

Really? Is he published by Princeton University Press? I usually only associate that level of speculative incompetency with them, publishing "Greek Buddha" and Elaine Pagels. I've read other scholarship that several older redactions of the PP sūtras are Āndhraka in origin. I'll find the paper in a bit.
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
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Caoimhghín
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Re: Questions about "Early" as in early early.

Post by Caoimhghín »

BTW, earlier with "entirely my own theory" I should have said "my own speculation." I'll be posting some others who have more informed speculations about the pp sūtras and Āndhra than my own, so my speculation stands on similarly speculative shoulders greater than my own shoulders.
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
Malcolm
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Re: Questions about "Early" as in early early.

Post by Malcolm »

Caoimhghín wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 10:15 pm Really? Is he published by Princeton University Press? I usually only associate that level of speculative incompetency with them, publishing "Greek Buddha" and Elaine Pagels. I've read other scholarship that several older redactions of the PP sūtras are Āndhraka in origin. I'll find the paper in a bit.
Routledge.
Malcolm
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Re: Questions about "Early" as in early early.

Post by Malcolm »

Caoimhghín wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 10:15 pm Really? Is he published by Princeton University Press? I usually only associate that level of speculative incompetency with them, publishing "Greek Buddha" and Elaine Pagels. I've read other scholarship that several older redactions of the PP sūtras are Āndhraka in origin. I'll find the paper in a bit.
He goes over all of the older scholarship. You may not agree, but he is hardly incompetent.Please respond here:

https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=102&t=35714
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Caoimhghín
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Re: Questions about "Early" as in early early.

Post by Caoimhghín »

I'll respond there once I've read the work. I'll say what it sounds like, trash pseudo-academic pop Buddhology like "Greek Buddha." I will be very surprised if any of his claims are anything specific. I have to first finish an Ng text I am reading for another thread and then see if I want to buy the Genealogies text. It isn't the sort of thing I would ever normally spend money on given that description of it.
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
Malcolm
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Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Questions about "Early" as in early early.

Post by Malcolm »

Caoimhghín wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 1:07 am I'll respond there once I've read the work. I'll say what it sounds like, trash pseudo-academic pop Buddhology like "Greek Buddha." I will be very surprised if any of his claims are anything specific. I have to first finish an Ng text I am reading for another thread and then see if I want to buy the Genealogies text. It isn't the sort of thing I would ever normally spend money on given that description of it.
His claims are actually quite specific, nothing like the latest Beckwith book. He is a good scholar actually,
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Caoimhghín
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Re: Questions about "Early" as in early early.

Post by Caoimhghín »

I look forward to being pleasantly surprised if I purchase it.
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Questions about "Early" as in early early.

Post by Malcolm »

Caoimhghín wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 1:58 am I look forward to being pleasantly surprised if I purchase it.
You will be. You may not agree with him, not saying I do, but one of interesting points of departure he makes is his administration that he wrote the book once he realized he didn’t actually know why he thought he knew what Mahayana was.
khandha
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Re: Questions about "Early" as in early early.

Post by khandha »

Padmist wrote: Thu Jan 21, 2021 11:47 pm
  • Since Pali Canon is not so dissimilar to the Chinese Canon, why does it take as preeminent prestige in EBT studies?
Probably because the Pali Canon is from a single school and thus have a larger degree of consistency. The Chinese Agamas are supposedly from different schools. Though nowadays the Chinese Agama is quite prestigious in EBT studies. It is trendy to know Chinese and be able to quote and comment on texts from the Chinese Agamas in the EBT circles.
PeterC
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Re: Questions about "Early" as in early early.

Post by PeterC »

khandha wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 3:39 am
Padmist wrote: Thu Jan 21, 2021 11:47 pm
  • Since Pali Canon is not so dissimilar to the Chinese Canon, why does it take as preeminent prestige in EBT studies?
Probably because the Pali Canon is from a single school and thus have a larger degree of consistency. The Chinese Agamas are supposedly from different schools. Though nowadays the Chinese Agama is quite prestigious in EBT studies. It is trendy to know Chinese and be able to quote and comment on texts from the Chinese Agamas in the EBT circles.
How does that work,though? The complexities of what got translated when, with what vocabulary, how it was re-edited later, from which language it was translated, etc. make it very hard to make inferences backwards out of the Chinese canon. I would trust that if the person doing it had genuine scholarship on this topic from the Chinese side, but how many of the EBT crowd are both competent on the Pali texts and qualified to do that sort of analysis on Chinese texts?
khandha
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Re: Questions about "Early" as in early early.

Post by khandha »

PeterC wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 9:16 am
khandha wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 3:39 am
Padmist wrote: Thu Jan 21, 2021 11:47 pm
  • Since Pali Canon is not so dissimilar to the Chinese Canon, why does it take as preeminent prestige in EBT studies?
Probably because the Pali Canon is from a single school and thus have a larger degree of consistency. The Chinese Agamas are supposedly from different schools. Though nowadays the Chinese Agama is quite prestigious in EBT studies. It is trendy to know Chinese and be able to quote and comment on texts from the Chinese Agamas in the EBT circles.
How does that work,though? The complexities of what got translated when, with what vocabulary, how it was re-edited later, from which language it was translated, etc. make it very hard to make inferences backwards out of the Chinese canon. I would trust that if the person doing it had genuine scholarship on this topic from the Chinese side, but how many of the EBT crowd are both competent on the Pali texts and qualified to do that sort of analysis on Chinese texts?
Some western Theravadin monks like Bhikkhu Analayo and Bhikkhu Sujato who are well versed in Pali, seem to be increasingly knowledgeable in Chinese and they often make comparisons between the Pali Nikayas and Chinese Agama. Another monk that comes to mind is Ven. KL Dhammajoti who is proficient in both Pali and Chinese. Also there are many Buddhists in east Asia that know Chinese (or Japanese Kanji) characters and if they are interested in EBT then comparisons between the many excellent English translations of the Pali Nikayas with the Chinese Agama becomes a very interesting exercise, even if it just a individual practitioner perspective rather than a rigorous scholarship perspective.
PeterC
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Re: Questions about "Early" as in early early.

Post by PeterC »

khandha wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 11:44 am
PeterC wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 9:16 am
khandha wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 3:39 am

Probably because the Pali Canon is from a single school and thus have a larger degree of consistency. The Chinese Agamas are supposedly from different schools. Though nowadays the Chinese Agama is quite prestigious in EBT studies. It is trendy to know Chinese and be able to quote and comment on texts from the Chinese Agamas in the EBT circles.
How does that work,though? The complexities of what got translated when, with what vocabulary, how it was re-edited later, from which language it was translated, etc. make it very hard to make inferences backwards out of the Chinese canon. I would trust that if the person doing it had genuine scholarship on this topic from the Chinese side, but how many of the EBT crowd are both competent on the Pali texts and qualified to do that sort of analysis on Chinese texts?
Some western Theravadin monks like Bhikkhu Analayo and Bhikkhu Sujato who are well versed in Pali, seem to be increasingly knowledgeable in Chinese and they often make comparisons between the Pali Nikayas and Chinese Agama. Another monk that comes to mind is Ven. KL Dhammajoti who is proficient in both Pali and Chinese. Also there are many Buddhists in east Asia that know Chinese (or Japanese Kanji) characters and if they are interested in EBT then comparisons between the many excellent English translations of the Pali Nikayas with the Chinese Agama becomes a very interesting exercise, even if it just a individual practitioner perspective rather than a rigorous scholarship perspective.
There are some excellent Japanese scholars of the Chinese canon. But a self-taught theravedan monk with no training in Classical Chinese simply has no business working on those texts. It’s not just a question of being able to read the characters.
khandha
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Re: Questions about "Early" as in early early.

Post by khandha »

PeterC wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 2:11 pm

There are some excellent Japanese scholars of the Chinese canon. But a self-taught theravedan monk with no training in Classical Chinese simply has no business working on those texts. It’s not just a question of being able to read the characters.
Bhikkhu Analayo knows enough to be the chief editor of the English translation of the following two volumes of the Chinese Madhyama Agama. There were quite a few sutras that he actually translated, not just edited.

If you don't already know you can check out and download the translations:-

https://bdkamerica.org/product/the-madh ... -volume-i/

https://bdkamerica.org/product/the-madh ... volume-ii/
PeterC
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Re: Questions about "Early" as in early early.

Post by PeterC »

khandha wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 3:29 pm
PeterC wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 2:11 pm

There are some excellent Japanese scholars of the Chinese canon. But a self-taught theravedan monk with no training in Classical Chinese simply has no business working on those texts. It’s not just a question of being able to read the characters.
Bhikkhu Analayo knows enough to be the chief editor of the English translation of the following two volumes of the Chinese Madhyama Agama. There were quite a few sutras that he actually translated, not just edited.

If you don't already know you can check out and download the translations:-

https://bdkamerica.org/product/the-madh ... -volume-i/

https://bdkamerica.org/product/the-madh ... volume-ii/
If we are talking here about the ability to do textual research on the agamas, if he doesn’t have a decade or so of specific training and research in Classical Chinese (and specifically Buddhist Chinese), it doesn’t really matter. The bar for doing translations of texts which in any case exist in whole or part in multiple other languages is much lower than the bar for being able to talk intelligently about their putative origins in comparison with similar texts in other languages.
thomaslaw
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Re: Questions about "Early" as in early early.

Post by thomaslaw »

PeterC wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 4:28 pm ...
If we are talking here about the ability to do textual research on the agamas, if he doesn’t have a decade or so of specific training and research in Classical Chinese (and specifically Buddhist Chinese), it doesn’t really matter. The bar for doing translations of texts which in any case exist in whole or part in multiple other languages is much lower than the bar for being able to talk intelligently about their putative origins in comparison with similar texts in other languages.
The following book by Choong Mun-keat may be relevant to your question/discussion on "Early" and on "textual research on the agamas":

- The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism: A Comparative Study Based on the Sutra-anga portion of the Pali Samyutta-Nikaya and the Chinese Samyukta-agama (Series: Beitrage zur Indologie Band 32; Harrassowitz Verlag, Wiesbaden, 2000).

In the book pp. 7-11, the author indicates that the Chinese scholar-monk Yinshun has demonstrated the historical important of Samyutta-Nikāya/Samyukta-āgama in Early Buddhism in two books: The Formation of Early Buddhist Texts (1971), and Combined Edition of Sutra and Sastra of Samyukta-agama (1983). See also pp. 2-7: "1. Historical background".

- In this recent article the same author provides further useful information on this topic/issue:

“Ācāriya Buddhaghosa and Master Yinshun 印順 on the Three-aṅga Structure of Early Buddhist Texts” in Research on the Saṃyukta-āgama (Dharma Drum Institute of Liberal Arts, Research Series 8; edited by Dhammadinnā), Taiwan: Dharma Drum Corporation, August 2020, pp. 883-932.
Last edited by thomaslaw on Wed Jan 27, 2021 1:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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