Buddha teaches Shentong view in a Sravakayana sutra

[Aemilius]

"And, Ánanda, all those Shamen or Brahmen of the long distant past who attained the highest surpassing purity of emptiness and made it a habitat, all of them did so by attaining this same highest surpassing purity of emptiness and making it a habitat.

And, Ánanda, all those Shamen or Brahmen who in the far distant future will attain the highest surpassing purity of emptiness and make it a habitat, all of them will do so by attaining this same highest surpassing purity of emptiness and making it a habitat.

And, Ánanda, all those Shamen or Brahmen who at present are able to attain the highest surpassing purity of emptiness and make it a habitat, all of them do so by attaining this same highest surpassing purity of emptiness and making it a habitat.

Wherefore, Ánanda, train yourself this way: "I will attain the highest surpassing purity of emptiness and make a habitat of that."

http://buddhasutra.com/files/a_little_s ... tiness.htm

Suñña sutta https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Another version of Cula-suññata sutta https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

[SteRo]

The Buddha does not teach a view in MN 121. He teaches the approach to the signless door to liberation via the jhanas. And he also teaches the impermanence of that and other meditative attainments.
It's hilarious to project a philosophical view on that.

[avatamsaka3]

Why do you think it's teaching a shentong view?

[Schrödinger’s Yidam]

Why do you think it's teaching a shentong view?

Maybe...

....highest surpassing purity of emptiness and make it a habitat,

The idea that emptiness is not just how phenomena abide, but that there’s something beyond appearances is suggestive of Shentong. Nagarjuna would definitely not approve.

Or at least I think that’s what the issue is.

[SteRo]

Why do you think it's teaching a shentong view?

Maybe...

....highest surpassing purity of emptiness and make it a habitat,

The idea that emptiness is not just how phenomena abide, but that there’s something beyond appearances is suggestive of Shentong. Nagarjuna would definitely not approve.

Or at least I think that’s what the issue is.

No, not at all. Only this translator "makes it a habitat". But even that expression just means to "abide in that absorption". I don't think Nagarjuna would object that one may abide in a meditative absorption.

How on earth would you meditate on emptiness if "emptiness" would be "just how phenomena abide"??? Don't you think that an absorption in emptiness is the result of meditating on emptiness?

Other translators:
Chalmer has "develop and dwell in pure and ultimate emptiness"
Horner has "entering on the utterly purified and incomparably highest emptiness, and abiding in it"
Ñanamoli has "enter upon and abide in pure, supreme, unsurpassed voidness"
Thanissaro has "enter & remain in an emptiness that is pure, superior, & unsurpassed"

[Johnny Dangerous]

Why do you think it's teaching a shentong view?

Maybe...

....highest surpassing purity of emptiness and make it a habitat,

The idea that emptiness is not just how phenomena abide, but that there’s something beyond appearances is suggestive of Shentong. Nagarjuna would definitely not approve.

Or at least I think that’s what the issue is.

Where do Shentong teachings or teachers say emptiness is "something beyond appearances"?

Phenomena don't abide at all.

[LastLegend]

Why do you think it's teaching a shentong view?

Maybe...

....highest surpassing purity of emptiness and make it a habitat,

The idea that emptiness is not just how phenomena abide, but that there’s something beyond appearances is suggestive of Shentong. Nagarjuna would definitely not approve.

Or at least I think that’s what the issue is.

It’s up to people how they want to fry it as long as there isn’t mistaken or attachment?

[Astus]

....highest surpassing purity of emptiness and make it a habitat,

The idea that emptiness is not just how phenomena abide, but that there’s something beyond appearances is suggestive of Shentong.

That is a nice mistranslation of ‘parisuddhaṃ paramānuttaraṃ suññataṃ upasampajja viharanti’.

Nanamoli & Bodhi:
'enter upon and abide in pure, supreme, unsurpassed voidness'

Sujato:
'enter and remain in the pure, ultimate, supreme emptiness'

Emptiness is practically a synonym for no-self, so that abiding in emptiness means not conceiving anything as 'I am that' or 'that is mine'.

[Aemilius]

Why do you think it's teaching a shentong view?

Khenpo Tsultrim Gyatso says in his book Progressive Stages of Meditation on Emptiness that Shentong teaching is that the nonconceptual wisdom mind is empty of anything other than itself. Which I think is very similar to what the Buddha is saying in this Short Sutra on Emptiness.

[LastLegend]

....highest surpassing purity of emptiness and make it a habitat,

The idea that emptiness is not just how phenomena abide, but that there’s something beyond appearances is suggestive of Shentong.

That is a nice mistranslation of ‘parisuddhaṃ paramānuttaraṃ suññataṃ upasampajja viharanti’.

Nanamoli & Bodhi:
'enter upon and abide in pure, supreme, unsurpassed voidness'

Sujato:
'enter and remain in the pure, ultimate, supreme emptiness'

Emptiness is practically a synonym for no-self, so that abiding in emptiness means not conceiving anything as 'I am that' or 'that is mine'.

How do you reconcile addressing yourself ‘I’ to other people?

[Astus]

How do you reconcile addressing yourself ‘I’ to other people?

Please elaborate. What is there to reconcile?

[LastLegend]

How do you reconcile addressing yourself ‘I’ to other people?

Please elaborate. What is there to reconcile?

Like how do you call ‘I’ to others without attachment?

[Astus]

Like how do you call ‘I’ to others without attachment?

It's merely a word. When one believes that the word signifies a real entity, that is the mistaken belief in a self.

[Simon E.]

"And, Ánanda, all those Shamen or Brahmen of the long distant past who attained the highest surpassing purity of emptiness and made it a habitat, all of them did so by attaining this same highest surpassing purity of emptiness and making it a habitat.

And, Ánanda, all those Shamen or Brahmen who in the far distant future will attain the highest surpassing purity of emptiness and make it a habitat, all of them will do so by attaining this same highest surpassing purity of emptiness and making it a habitat.

And, Ánanda, all those Shamen or Brahmen who at present are able to attain the highest surpassing purity of emptiness and make it a habitat, all of them do so by attaining this same highest surpassing purity of emptiness and making it a habitat.

Wherefore, Ánanda, train yourself this way: "I will attain the highest surpassing purity of emptiness and make a habitat of that."

http://buddhasutra.com/files/a_little_s ... tiness.htm

Suñña sutta https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Another version of Cula-suññata sutta https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Before discussing a Vajrayana concept with you Aemilius, it would be useful to know who your Vajrayana teacher is in order to be able to respond appropriately. You are of course free to decline to answer for any reason. But I am curious, with which Vajrayana teacher have you taken Refuge?

[Tata1]

Emptiness is not a vajrayana concept. It goes all the way down to shravakayana.
And i dont see what hes teacher has to do with anything lol

[Simon E.]

Shentong is a Vajrayana concept. And he does not want to disclose who is shaping his views, that is his choice.

[Schrödinger’s Yidam]

Before discussing a Vajrayana concept with you Aemilius, it would be useful to know who your Vajrayana teacher is in order to be able to respond appropriately. You are of course free to decline to answer for any reason. But I am curious, with which Vajrayana teacher have you taken Refuge?

I’m not Aemilius, but I do see he has already quoted Khenpo Tsultrim in this thread.

Khenpo Tsultrim Gyatso says in his book Progressive Stages of Meditation on Emptiness that Shentong teaching is that the nonconceptual wisdom mind is empty of anything other than itself. Which I think is very similar to what the Buddha is saying in this Short Sutra on Emptiness.

This thread is about interpreting a Shravakayana Sutta. Personally I think the other translations offered for that Sutta addressed that issue. But if people want to continue getting worked up over it that okay with me. It’s better than talking politics.

[Simon E.]

Anyone can quote anyone. And on Buddhist Forums frequently do. That is rather my point.
I don’t doubt that Khenpo Tsultrim has a nuanced understanding of Shentong.
And more importantly, his understanding forms part of his relationship with his lineage of teachers.

[Schrödinger’s Yidam]

Personally I’ve only had one teacher suggest I study Shentong. However he passed away before I followed through on his recommendation. So I can’t say I’ve been tutored on the subject.

After I’d started exploring the subject I tried to ask several Karma Kagyu khenpos about it. None of them was willing to discuss the topic with me. So I am entirely book based and self taught. Since I’m content being a dilettante I can live with that. But I must admit I’d like for a khenpo to engage me on the subject.

[LastLegend]

Like how do you call ‘I’ to others without attachment?

It's merely a word. When one believes that the word signifies a real entity, that is the mistaken belief in a self.

You’ve gotten one part of emptiness!