About a nihilistic adrift of Buddhadharma

Discuss and learn about the traditional Mahayana scriptures, without assuming that any one school ‘owns’ the only correct interpretation.
Druniel
Posts: 21
Joined: Sun Jun 10, 2018 7:23 pm

Re: About a nihilistic adrift of Buddhadharma

Post by Druniel »

Simon E. wrote: Sun Feb 09, 2020 3:38 pm
smcj wrote: Sun Feb 09, 2020 3:25 pm
We can can also say there is no sentient being, no creature, no person, no living being, etc.
Tell ya what. If you can stick a needle through your hand without saying “ouch” you’ll have some credibility when you say that. Not 100% credibility, but some.
But that just proves that sensation exists and that contact exists...not that there is an unchanging discrete entity.

Actually we are the best prove that you can be the same and changing in the same time. Like, you go and read a diary you wrote 30 years ago. You don't reckon those pages were written by another person. Or if someone steal from you money you earned a month ago, you won't say ^I don't bother that money was not mine. So, all this idea of Self, is based on bad trasnlation and ignorance of what the conventional indian rules of philophy dictate thousand yeras ago. They use to define clearly something, before deciding to denie it existence or not. So, the Atman, was defined as an unchanging beyond time intelligent entity, not touched by Samsara. Atman was Amata also, immortal, and Nirguna, without qualities, and so on.
The Sadhu want to see this, with Yoga. Buddha was a Great Yogi, He went in to the forest and Meditate for years. Then He tried to teach the Immortal. In the sutta is written He said: now the gates of the Immortal are opened,

from Aryapariyesanā Sutta

apārutā tesaṃ amatassa dvārā
ye sotavanto pamuñcantu saddhaṃ
vihiṃsasañntilde;ī pagunaṃ na bhāsiṃ
dhammaṃ paṇītaṃ manujesu brahme ti

or from Mahāvastu


apāvṛtaṃ me amṛtasya dvāraṃ brahmeti bhagavantaṃ ye śrotukāmā śraddhāṃ pramuṃcantu viheṭhasaṃjñāṃ

viheṭhasamjño praguṇo abhūṣidharmo aśuddho magadeṣu pūvaṃ
User avatar
Taikor.Taikun
Posts: 27
Joined: Thu Oct 24, 2019 4:40 am

Re: About a nihilistic adrift of Buddhadharma

Post by Taikor.Taikun »

Druniel wrote: Sun Apr 19, 2020 12:28 am
Taikor.Taikun wrote: Sun Feb 09, 2020 6:23 am Can we say it actually meant non-self; not no self. No self is largely interpreted as no soul while non-self is being selfless in nature without attachment.

Some people argued that anatta mean no soul. This concept belied the other concept of samsara. And the Buddha encouraged us to be reborn in Sukhavati. The souls in different realms and world depending on its state of being. We can be in union with the universe but we cannot say there is no soul

Yes. anatta was one of the many rafts Buddha gave to understand His subtle teaching, so much so, that He was not keen to teach it at all, according with the Sutta, as everybody here knows well. This raft were to be left on the bank, once you've crossed and reach the othern shore.
The is the famous parable of the Raft in M.Nykaya, (so is not my word)I guess only trough Dhyana we can see something.
The raft analogy makes sense to me. If i understand correctly, we’re suppose to develop and then undo or deconstruct our level of enlightenment continuously in order to develop new level until we reach full enlightenment
User avatar
LastLegend
Posts: 4377
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:46 pm
Location: Northern Virginia

Re: About a nihilistic adrift of Buddhadharma

Post by LastLegend »

Druniel wrote: Sun Feb 02, 2020 12:16 am Hi
In my intuition and throu Pâli and Samskrit sûtra
I rekon that Buddha never spoke of no-self.
I see that some scholars also see like that, a minority. I see Buddha teaching using a Via Negativa kind of way, (which He say was often misunderstood for a nichilistic one by peoples in His times) keeping silent about some questions without describing any truth in details, but speaking some rare times, about a supreme state of bliss ,Nirvana , which is the end of soffering. I observe a sort of nichilistic adrift during the centuries due, among others, to a certain attitude of the Theravada school insisting on the anatta as if it was a Theory, which never was, that we easily know from the Sūtta, where Buddha say that all theories are not correct and that His Dharma is beyond logic and intellectual understanding. Is there anybody here who agree on this?

Ps;. In a quite sophisticated way some scholars use to say that Buddha simply doesn't deny the self because He doesn't pose one in first instance, but that would be just nihilism anyway, and Buddha clearly states that He is not a nichilist teacher, nor a philosopher.
We have a long habit of creating dual thinking and becomes wrapped up in it and has a hard time moving beyond this. Like self, no-self, or nothing these are constructed covering our nature.
Make personal vows.

End of the day: I don’t know.
User avatar
Grigoris
Former staff member
Posts: 21590
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: About a nihilistic adrift of Buddhadharma

Post by Grigoris »

Taikor.Taikun wrote: Thu May 07, 2020 5:55 pmThe raft analogy makes sense to me. If i understand correctly, we’re suppose to develop and then undo or deconstruct our level of enlightenment continuously in order to develop new level until we reach full enlightenment
No. The raft simile is about considering provisional teachings as provisional. Once a teaching no longer serves a purpose, then we can discard it.

Do not confuse enlightenment (Nirvana) with knowledge (abhijana).

Nirvana is a hell of a lot more than just knowing.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
User avatar
Grigoris
Former staff member
Posts: 21590
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: About a nihilistic adrift of Buddhadharma

Post by Grigoris »

Druniel wrote: Sun Apr 19, 2020 1:12 amActually we are the best prove that you can be the same and changing in the same time.
No, something cannot be unchanging and changing at the same time. It is impossible. We are the best proof that we are changing. Unless you truly believe that you are the same person now as you were when you were born. That would be pretty deluded.

It would mean that you are still shitting and pissing yourself, that you would still be breast-feeding, that you would be incapable of communicating except through crying and not able to focus your eyes further then 30cm away.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
zerwe
Posts: 336
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 4:25 am
Location: North Carolina

Re: About a nihilistic adrift of Buddhadharma

Post by zerwe »

Grigoris wrote: Fri May 08, 2020 2:42 pm
Druniel wrote: Sun Apr 19, 2020 1:12 amActually we are the best prove that you can be the same and changing in the same time.
No, something cannot be unchanging and changing at the same time. It is impossible. We are the best proof that we are changing. Unless you truly believe that you are the same person now as you were when you were born. That would be pretty deluded.

It would mean that you are still shitting and pissing yourself, that you would still be breast-feeding, that you would be incapable of communicating except through crying and not able to focus your eyes further then 30cm away.
I would have to really dig for the source (I think it may be Buddhapalita), but one commentary (and perhaps oral tradition) that examines this objection points out that the consequences of accepting something as changing and unchanging are that; continua as we know them could not exist, the laws of cause and effect would not function, we would not experience the ripening of our own actions, we would experience the effects of an non-related origin, former and latter selves would be equally "other," etc...

This refutation of the objection is offered in the context of Tsongkhapa's Four Point Analysis.

Shaun :namaste:
Schrödinger’s Yidam
Posts: 7194
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am

Re: About a nihilistic adrift of Buddhadharma

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

No, something cannot be unchanging and changing at the same time. It is impossible.
How about a river? I always liked that analogy ‘cause a riverbed can dry up and is thus shown to be “empty of water” (self).
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
User avatar
LastLegend
Posts: 4377
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:46 pm
Location: Northern Virginia

Re: About a nihilistic adrift of Buddhadharma

Post by LastLegend »

smcj wrote: Fri May 08, 2020 3:31 pm
No, something cannot be unchanging and changing at the same time. It is impossible.
How about a river? I always liked that analogy ‘cause a riverbed can dry up and is thus shown to be “empty of water” (self).
Right. The skandhas go away ?
Make personal vows.

End of the day: I don’t know.
Schrödinger’s Yidam
Posts: 7194
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am

Re: About a nihilistic adrift of Buddhadharma

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

LastLegend wrote: Fri May 08, 2020 3:49 pm
smcj wrote: Fri May 08, 2020 3:31 pm
No, something cannot be unchanging and changing at the same time. It is impossible.
How about a river? I always liked that analogy ‘cause a riverbed can dry up and is thus shown to be “empty of water” (self).
Right. The skandhas go away ?
My understanding is that the ultimate nature of mind is Dharmakaya. Furthermore, my understanding is that there is no mentation of any kind in the Dharmakaya.

So although I have not asked that specific question from a reliable authority, my guess is that the answer would probably be yes. But that’s just a guess.

*****

Having said that, it needs to also be said the Dharmakaya is not a void or absence (according to the 3rd Turning). It is Buddha Nature in purity and potential. It is the basis for all samsara and nirvana, etc.

So you aren’t losing much.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
User avatar
Grigoris
Former staff member
Posts: 21590
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: About a nihilistic adrift of Buddhadharma

Post by Grigoris »

smcj wrote: Fri May 08, 2020 3:31 pmHow about a river? I always liked that analogy ‘cause a riverbed can dry up and is thus shown to be “empty of water” (self).
If a river dries up, is it still a river?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
User avatar
Grigoris
Former staff member
Posts: 21590
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: About a nihilistic adrift of Buddhadharma

Post by Grigoris »

LastLegend wrote: Fri May 08, 2020 3:49 pmRight. The skandhas go away ?
If you lose your form (your body) and your mind (your sensations, feelings, etc...) then there is not much of a self left, is there?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Schrödinger’s Yidam
Posts: 7194
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am

Re: About a nihilistic adrift of Buddhadharma

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

Grigoris wrote: Fri May 08, 2020 7:22 pm
smcj wrote: Fri May 08, 2020 3:31 pmHow about a river? I always liked that analogy ‘cause a riverbed can dry up and is thus shown to be “empty of water” (self).
If a river dries up, is it still a river?
No. It is demonstrating the Truth of Cessation.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
User avatar
LastLegend
Posts: 4377
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:46 pm
Location: Northern Virginia

Re: About a nihilistic adrift of Buddhadharma

Post by LastLegend »

smcj wrote: Fri May 08, 2020 8:06 pm
Grigoris wrote: Fri May 08, 2020 7:22 pm
smcj wrote: Fri May 08, 2020 3:31 pmHow about a river? I always liked that analogy ‘cause a riverbed can dry up and is thus shown to be “empty of water” (self).
If a river dries up, is it still a river?
No. It is demonstrating the Truth of Cessation.
Grigoris wrote: Fri May 08, 2020 7:24 pm
LastLegend wrote: Fri May 08, 2020 3:49 pmRight. The skandhas go away ?
If you lose your form (your body) and your mind (your sensations, feelings, etc...) then there is not much of a self left, is there?
If you choose to leave this body and intent to go elsewhere yes. Truth cessation doesn’t mean you have to leave this body. You can leave by choice not confusion of karma. True awakening is whether you sleep or awake anywhere any place it’s the same and no longer confused by karma.
Last edited by LastLegend on Fri May 08, 2020 8:46 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Make personal vows.

End of the day: I don’t know.
User avatar
Grigoris
Former staff member
Posts: 21590
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: About a nihilistic adrift of Buddhadharma

Post by Grigoris »

smcj wrote: Fri May 08, 2020 8:06 pm
Grigoris wrote: Fri May 08, 2020 7:22 pm
smcj wrote: Fri May 08, 2020 3:31 pmHow about a river? I always liked that analogy ‘cause a riverbed can dry up and is thus shown to be “empty of water” (self).
If a river dries up, is it still a river?
No. It is demonstrating the Truth of Cessation.
In the case of Parinirvana, yes.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Schrödinger’s Yidam
Posts: 7194
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am

Re: About a nihilistic adrift of Buddhadharma

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

Grigoris wrote: Fri May 08, 2020 8:26 pm
smcj wrote: Fri May 08, 2020 8:06 pm
Grigoris wrote: Fri May 08, 2020 7:22 pm If a river dries up, is it still a river?
No. It is demonstrating the Truth of Cessation.
In the case of Parinirvana, yes.
There was a thread recently when Malcolm was explaining cessation in the Shravakayana (I think). The Arhat’s enlightenment pre-death was “Cessation with Remainder”. So evidently in that case something stops without the individual dying.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
zerwe
Posts: 336
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 4:25 am
Location: North Carolina

Re: About a nihilistic adrift of Buddhadharma

Post by zerwe »

All of this confusion (nihilism) arises when the object to be refuted is misidentified. It is the mind's fundamental misapprehension (perception of inherently existent self--a hallucination, the net of a whole or oneness cast or projected by the mind upon the aggregates) that is to be refuted NOT the conventional.

Shaun :namaste:
User avatar
LastLegend
Posts: 4377
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:46 pm
Location: Northern Virginia

Re: About a nihilistic adrift of Buddhadharma

Post by LastLegend »

smcj wrote: Fri May 08, 2020 9:22 pm
Grigoris wrote: Fri May 08, 2020 8:26 pm
smcj wrote: Fri May 08, 2020 8:06 pm

No. It is demonstrating the Truth of Cessation.
In the case of Parinirvana, yes.
There was a thread recently when Malcolm was explaining cessation in the Shravakayana (I think). The Arhat’s enlightenment pre-death was “Cessation with Remainder”. So evidently in that case something stops without the individual dying.
Likewise people from Mahayana are truly awakened, they are free from both Nirvana and samsara and free to leave this physical body as they wish.
Make personal vows.

End of the day: I don’t know.
Schrödinger’s Yidam
Posts: 7194
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am

Re: About a nihilistic adrift of Buddhadharma

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

In a nutshell my current understanding is that our sense of identity is not our essence and is untrue, it is a falsehood. Thus our loyalty to it is misplaced. This includes our emotionality, our habits, our opinions and our perspectives. Basically the whole shebang.

The only thing authentic about our current existence is our good will, our curiosity, and our ability to act. Those are tiny indicators of the presence of Buddha Nature within us. Ideally we leave everything behind except those three things when we begin to engage Dharma. We are to start fresh by meditating on death and practicing for beyond this life. (It’s part of the instructions.)

******

I don’t know if that’s really true, but hey, it’s just an internet post. I thought it sounded cool.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
User avatar
LastLegend
Posts: 4377
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:46 pm
Location: Northern Virginia

Re: About a nihilistic adrift of Buddhadharma

Post by LastLegend »

smcj wrote: Sat May 09, 2020 3:32 am In a nutshell my current understanding is that our sense of identity is not our essence and is untrue, it is a falsehood. Thus our loyalty to it is misplaced. This includes our emotionality, our habits, our opinions and our perspectives. Basically the whole shebang.

The only thing authentic about our current existence is our good will, our curiosity, and our ability to act. Those are tiny indications of the presence of Buddha Nature within us. Ideally we leave everything behind except those things when we engage Dharma. Start fresh by meditating on death and practicing for beyond this life. It’s part of the instructions.

******

I don’t know if that’s really true, but hey, it’s just an internet post. I thought it sounded cool.
Totally understood we are bound by karma. But Buddha nature has be understood here and now.
Make personal vows.

End of the day: I don’t know.
Schrödinger’s Yidam
Posts: 7194
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am

Re: About a nihilistic adrift of Buddhadharma

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

Deleted by smcj
Last edited by Schrödinger’s Yidam on Sat May 09, 2020 4:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Post Reply

Return to “Sūtra Studies”