A question about Huáyán philosophy of the Avataṃsaka

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Leo Rivers
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A question about Huáyán philosophy of the Avataṃsaka

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A question about Huáyán philosophy of the Avataṃsaka... a philosophy I admit to finding daunting.

In that "According to Luis Gomez, [the Gaṇḍavyūha Sutra ] can be "regarded as emblematic of the whole collection."" [Takeuchi Yoshinori (editor). Buddhist Spirituality: Indian, Southeast Asian, Tibetan, and Early Chinese, page 164], I would assume discussions found on this very helpful page [https://sites.google.com/view/learningt ... yuhasutra/] can be a good jumping off point for me trying to think about the subject.

So, if
... we are already presented with one of the central theses of the Avataṃsaka Sūtra: all phenomena are interdependent and interpenetrating, they are also inherently pure as they are replete with Buddha Nature. A single atom is a buddha-field, and in it all realms are reflected due to dependent origination.
[https://sites.google.com/view/learningt ... yuhasutra/] what does this do to individual Karma?

Is Karma "pooled" in some way.

And, if cause and effect is conserved as regards the individual from "interpenetrating" how does that work? :thanks:
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Leo Rivers
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Re: A question about Huáyán philosophy of the Avataṃsaka

Post by Leo Rivers »

PS:
I have read the Avataṃsaka is in 7 or 8 groups of sutras, each group considered "a chapter".

Also, 4 "chapters" are one single sutra, two of which are the Daśabhūmika Sūtra and the Gaṇḍavyūha Sūtra. What are the other two?

AND, what is the distinction between the "Ten Stages" Sūtra and the "Ten Bhumis Sūtra" (aka: Daśabhūmika)?

Thanks very much for the effort put into making the 'Learning The Gaṇḍavyūha Sūtra'. I find just scanning these massive chunks of sūtra text to be a struggle to parse into units of exposition. This kind of aid really puts some markers and guardrails into study. :cheers:
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: A question about Huáyán philosophy of the Avataṃsaka

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Leo Rivers wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 11:42 pm
what does this do to individual Karma?

Is Karma "pooled" in some way.

And, if cause and effect is conserved as regards the individual from "interpenetrating" how does that work? :thanks:
No bearing whatsoever, as karma is a product of delusion. You could say, karma is real because we are dreaming. Once we wake up, as the Buddha did, then there’s no more dream, thus, no more karma.

It’s like, your body is made up of trillions of interacting cells. Yet, you get upset when you accidentally hit your thumb with a hammer.
So, you can apply your question here too:
“If my body is really trillions of interacting cells, how does an individual “me” experience the cause-and-effect of hitting my thumb with a hammer?
Are the cells upset?
Or is it the “me” that I am merely dreaming is real, who experiences the hammer-to-thumb karma?
EMPTIFUL.
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Leo Rivers
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Re: A question about Huáyán philosophy of the Avataṃsaka

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You are saying interpenetration is dharmic external to samsara yet it still has function, a way of relating parts as parts to each other? And there is a part and whole distinction being made. In the hammered thumb image it is the macro aspect that knows a change in perception of value in the spiritual image it is the molecular self that is accruing a recognition of status.

I guess I am unclear as to what thinking about interconnectedness adds to my concern with discerning bad from wholesome choices to divine better courses of action and create better future states.
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Re: A question about Huáyán philosophy of the Avataṃsaka

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Leo Rivers wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 4:16 pm You are saying interpenetration is dharmic external to samsara yet it still has function, a way of relating parts as parts to each other? And there is a part and whole distinction being made. In the hammered thumb image it is the macro aspect that knows a change in perception of value in the spiritual image it is the molecular self that is accruing a recognition of status.

I guess I am unclear as to what thinking about interconnectedness adds to my concern with discerning bad from wholesome choices to divine better courses of action and create better future states.
Wow, that is way too complicated.
Maybe you are mixing too many things together.
It’s much simpler than that.
All phenomena are appearances that arise conditionally and within the context of other relative phenomena. That’s dependent origination. Ultimately, there’s no karma involved at this point because ultimately there’s not even anything you can identify as an individual interacting phenomenon. Even the parts are made of parts.

Karma occurs as the result of our deluded experience, or “ignorance”, which is also related to (but not limited to) not realizing dependent origination.

If the question is, “how can there be individual karma if everything is interconnected?” It’s because our experience isn’t one of interconnectedness. It’s because you and I have the experience of being an individual being, that you and I will each have the experience of individual karma.
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Zhen Li
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Re: A question about Huáyán philosophy of the Avataṃsaka

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Leo Rivers wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 5:54 am I have read the Avataṃsaka is in 7 or 8 groups of sutras, each group considered "a chapter".

Also, 4 "chapters" are one single sutra, two of which are the Daśabhūmika Sūtra and the Gaṇḍavyūha Sūtra. What are the other two?
I don't know the divisions that have been theorised. But if we look at the Avataṃsaka from the larger scale, we can see that it involves a series of nine Dharma assemblies, which occur in different locations, although sequentially and without the Buddha ever leaving the Bodhimaṇḍa (i.e. beneath the bodhi tree).

1. At the Bodhimaṇḍa (Chps. 1–6)
Samantabhadra questions the Buddha allowing him to expound on the Lotus World and introduces the idea of Vairocana as spanning the dharmadhātu.

2. Hall of Universal Light (Chps. 7–12)
Mañjuśrī questions the Buddha on the vast varieties of the Buddha's approaches to teaching (including the Four Noble Truths) and he asks Bhadramukha to expound the Bodhisattva Path.

3. Indra's Palace (Chps. 13–18)
The Buddha teaches in Trayastrimsa and Dharmamati teaches the ten abodes and how Bodhicitta itself is Buddhahood.

4. Yama's Palace (Chps. 19–22)
The Buddha teaches on how the world is a creation of the mind, like a painter his painting. Gunavana teaches the ten practices and ten inexhaustible treasuries.

5. Tusita Heaven (Chps. 23–25)
Similar to the prior assemblies, Vajradhvaja teaches the ten transferences of merit.

6. Paranirmitavasavartin Heaven (Chp. 26)
This is the Ten Stages Sutra (Daśabhūmika) taught by Vajragarbha.

7. Hall of Universal Light II (Chps. 27–37)
The Buddha returns to the hall in the 2nd assembly. Samantabhadra teaches the ten concentrations, supernormal powers, and types of patience. Other teachings are given on the immeasurability of Buddhahood and how Samantabhadra embodies all awakened activity, which is manifested by the Buddha in an omnipresent manner (i.e. the skilful means of the Buddha are constantly being manifested in every location in the dharmadhātu).

8. Hall of Universal Light III (Chp. 38)
Same location. Samantabhadra teaches on aspects of the bodhisattva path.

9. Jetavana Pavillion (Chp. 39)
The Gaṇḍavyūha Sūtra.
Leo Rivers wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 11:42 pm In that "According to Luis Gomez, [the Gaṇḍavyūha Sutra ] can be "regarded as emblematic of the whole collection.""
Yes, frankly you can learn the whole sūtra with just the Gaṇḍavyūha. But there are important details that you can get from the other chapters. Really, the Avataṃsaka is not something that can be read like a novel and large portions of the collection are lists or lengthy sets of successive hyperboles. Its length is suited to ritual recitation over a long period of time. To study it, I think, really does require that one takes notes and then takes a step back and reflect upon the bigger picture—the same definitely applies to the Nirvāṇa Sūtra.
Leo Rivers wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 5:54 am AND, what is the distinction between the "Ten Stages" Sūtra and the "Ten Bhumis Sūtra" (aka: Daśabhūmika)?
They are identical. Bhūmi is stage or ground.
Leo Rivers wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 5:54 am Thanks very much for the effort put into making the 'Learning The Gaṇḍavyūha Sūtra'. I find just scanning these massive chunks of sūtra text to be a struggle to parse into units of exposition. This kind of aid really puts some markers and guardrails into study.
Thank you, that is very much my intention. There may be some mistakes, and keep in mind that it is just my interpretation, but the idea is simply to provide some support. If I just kept my notes in a notebook then it wouldn't benefit anyone. I hope, at some point, to put these together into a guidebook to Mahāyāna Sūtras.
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 4:53 pm If the question is, “how can there be individual karma if everything is interconnected?” It’s because our experience isn’t one of interconnectedness. It’s because you and I have the experience of being an individual being, that you and I will each have the experience of individual karma.
The Nirvāṇa Sūtra puts it this way: if we realise dependent origination, we see the Dharma, he who sees the Dharma sees the Buddha, he who sees the Buddha sees Buddha Nature and is thus awakened.

As long as we do not see dependent origination, the psychological process that allows for karma and its transfer continues. This is why there can be interconnectedness and dependent origination on an ultimate level for all dharmas, and the individual illusion of that dependent origination gives rise to, which includes karmic processes.
Leo Rivers wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 4:16 pm I guess I am unclear as to what thinking about interconnectedness adds to my concern with discerning bad from wholesome choices to divine better courses of action and create better future states.
Personally, I don't think it has a huge bearing on śīla. That's because if we could see things from that universal perspective, we wouldn't need morality on the level of individual behaviour. But because we cannot see things from the universal perspective, we need morality that is suggested to us in the skilful means of the Buddha's teachings. That means the ten wholesome ways of action, the pratimokṣa (if ordained), the upāsaka precepts, and the bodhisattva precepts. So, we don't really need to concern ourselves with an objective justification for right and wrong (there actually isn't one). The Buddha observes the conditions of limited beings and then provides them with the tools that they need to overcome their difficulties so that they don't need to work it all out for themselves from scratch.

So, what use does a teaching like the Avataṃsaka actually have? Maybe similar to the simile of the birds in the Nirvāṇa Sūtra: if we are trying to get a clear understanding and knowledge of Buddha-Nature as limited beings, we cannot. But we can get a slightly obscured view of it out of the corner of our eye, like a man discerning birds in the corner of his eye and supposing that they must be cranes (without truly knowing 100%). Getting repeated exposure to the Dharma, even in part and even if we don't grasp the whole picture, is always planting seeds in our minds for ripening later on. As we read more of the Dharma, we make connections and can start to see how things fit together. When we get the bigger picture, we can revisit sūtras multiple times and each time we will get a different thing out of it and understand it on a different level. Listening to the Dharma and deeply reflecting on it is really one of the best things that we can do to improve, particularly in the age of Dharma decline when other forms of practice lose much of their efficacy.
Leo Rivers wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 4:16 pm You are saying interpenetration is dharmic external to samsara yet it still has function, a way of relating parts as parts to each other? And there is a part and whole distinction being made. In the hammered thumb image it is the macro aspect that knows a change in perception of value in the spiritual image it is the molecular self that is accruing a recognition of status.
Maybe we could say that saṃsāra is a projected perception of the dharmadhātu. It is seeing the world through rose-tinted glasses. In the big picture, a human who is deluded is part of the bigger system, their karma, as well, is something that works within the logic of the system. So, while we can say projections are illusions, it is not that they don't follow the laws of nature. The key is ignorance—ignorance keeps these systems going. If we think of it like the Matrix, individual humans are plugged into the computer. They still are born and live according to the biological realities of the real world, and it is also the physical and chemical processes that function to allow the computer to give rise to their perceptions, but their projected perceptions are not able to see how they fit into that bigger picture.
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Re: A question about Huáyán philosophy of the Avataṃsaka

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About this, my guru has written about this. I try to explain,

My first language is Chinese, the content translated by Google is for your reference.

For example, there are 6 billion people on earth, and everyone is doing a lot of things today. The effects of all these things combined are like trillions of records in a big wooden box. You take a record from it, then, it must be the fusion of all the records.

There are countless planets in the world, and there are endless sentient beings, no matter how far apart they are, they are all influencing each other.

Everything is born from the heart, including the infinite world, Buddha, and sentient beings in the universe.

One move of your hand can change infinite things, no matter how weak you are.

Just like an amplifier, it can amplify your power countless times.

If an ant walks a few more steps today, if the affect to reaches a billion light-years, it will even destroy the stars!
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Re: A question about Huáyán philosophy of the Avataṃsaka

Post by weiyang7999 »

About the difference between "Ten Stages" and "Ten Bhumis Sūtra".
I don't know what their original Chinese text is, if I know, I can provide more detailed information.

However, I guess "Ten Stages" is "Ten Xuanmen(十玄门)" in Chinese, which probably means ten magical gates. Probably if you understand the ten Stages, it can help you understand the Huayan Sutra more conveniently. It was established by Huayan Zong. Huayan Zong is a sect of Chinese Buddhism that attaches great importance to the Huayan Sutra (you can refer to Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huayan).

And ""Ten Bhumis Sūtra"" generally refers to the ten stages of Buddhist Bodhisattva practice, which is not the same as "Ten Stages". Generally speaking, these ten realms are cultivated in sequence.

If you were to ask why they are all ten?
Ten is the magic number. In the Huayan Sutra, a lot of things is about ten.

If you are good at Chinese, then you may try to read (https://zh.m.wikisource.org/zh-hans/佛學大辭典/十玄門) to understand "Ten Stages"
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