Commentaries on the Canonical Sutras?

Discuss and learn about the traditional Mahayana scriptures, without assuming that any one school ‘owns’ the only correct interpretation.
Nalanda
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Re: Commentaries on the Canonical Sutras?

Post by Nalanda »

Thanks for the recommendation guys. I think those are going to get me busy for the next while.
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Re: Commentaries on the Canonical Sutras?

Post by cdpatton »

Nalanda wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 6:40 pm For example, if we are reading MA190, and we want to know what the ancient Buddhists think or say about this agama, we could then learn it from their perspective.

Is there something like that I could check whenever I read the agamas?
No, unfortunately it doesn't exist outside of the Pali commentaries. This is a major difficulty sometimes in understanding what the Agama passages really meant when the Pali doesn't help. Strangely, though, the Pali commentaries sometimes appear to come from a northern tradition, so they are occasionally useful if the passages are the same. But, then, the commentaries haven't been translated, so you'll have to learn Pali to read them. The other option is to search through Abhidharma texts that might mention the passage involved by chance. They mostly aren't translated, either, so then it's time to learn Chinese or Tibetan. "Double, double toil and trouble"!
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Re: Commentaries on the Canonical Sutras?

Post by Nalanda »

cdpatton wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 9:04 pm
Nalanda wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 6:40 pm For example, if we are reading MA190, and we want to know what the ancient Buddhists think or say about this agama, we could then learn it from their perspective.

Is there something like that I could check whenever I read the agamas?
No, unfortunately it doesn't exist outside of the Pali commentaries. This is a major difficulty sometimes in understanding what the Agama passages really meant when the Pali doesn't help. Strangely, though, the Pali commentaries sometimes appear to come from a northern tradition, so they are occasionally useful if the passages are the same. But, then, the commentaries haven't been translated, so you'll have to learn Pali to read them. The other option is to search through Abhidharma texts that might mention the passage involved by chance. They mostly aren't translated, either, so then it's time to learn Chinese or Tibetan. "Double, double toil and trouble"!
If I am not mistaken, I saw your name last night on the sister forums as I was exhausting various resources. Is it so that there are commentaries in the Pali tradition on what the Pali texts (the Nikayas primarily) are saying? If so, it would make sense as the tradition put a lot of value in these texts. Are these commentaries in the form of Abhidamma or another?

Are you familiar with Lamotte said in his main book that a lot of texts have been lost?

Basically, the reason for this inquiry (about commentaries) is to properly / deeply understand the texts as they were understood by earlier Buddhists, Buddhist scholars, historical minds of Buddhism, etc.

As for my tradition (by that I mean Mahayana/Vajrayana) is the lack of commentary on these texts the result of primarily focusing on Mahayana texts? And if so, is that because they didn't see the need to comment on the Nikaya texts as those were belonging to other parts of the tradition/schools, or perhaps the Mahayana texts themselves are the "commentaries" (of the Nikayas indirectly) in a way that actually explains the teachings using different narratives?
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Re: Commentaries on the Canonical Sutras?

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Nalanda wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 4:50 am Is it so that there are commentaries in the Pali tradition on what the Pali texts (the Nikayas primarily) are saying? If so, it would make sense as the tradition put a lot of value in these texts. Are these commentaries in the form of Abhidamma or another?
Abhidhamma is not commentary. It is intended to be a presentation of Dhamma without dialogue form. The Prajñāpāramitā, as discussed earlier, is often seen as a commentary or critique to the Abhidharma from a Mahāhāyana perspective. In my opinion, Mahāyāna literature is doing too much of its own original doctrinal exposition to be commentary either on the Abhidharma or Nikāya/Āgama literature, but I think the argument can be made for some parts of the Prajñāpāramitā literature.

The Pali commentarial tradition is largely attributed to Buddhaghosa and Dhammapala, but as Patton suggested, it seems to have some precedents from India. Each section of the Nikāyas, Vinaya, and Abhidhamma have their own commentaries, called Aṭṭhakathā. The Aṭṭhakathā themselves have later sub-commentaries called Ṭīkā, but there do exist Ṭīkā without any corresponding Aṭṭhakathā.

There's a lot of effort going into re-translation of suttas that have been done to death, and these commentaries have received little attention. Some of them are really quite interesting (I only have a passing acquaintance with some of them, but read a good deal of the Sumaṅgalavilāsinī many years ago).
Nalanda wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 4:50 am Basically, the reason for this inquiry (about commentaries) is to properly / deeply understand the texts as they were understood by earlier Buddhists, Buddhist scholars, historical minds of Buddhism, etc.
So much of what we think about what Theravāda is is entirely distorted by colonial and secularist attempts to purify it of what might be conceived of as cultural baggage. But the commentaries are essential to understanding how the texts have been interpreted by the tradition historically, and give us an idea of why they take the form they do today in contemporary Theravāda Buddhism. Besides that, they simply give us interpretations that aren't biased by modern thinking. People just saw things different in the past and had access to other texts and oral traditions that are now lost to us. But, as you suggest, we have to understand them as historically situated and informing us about what, for instance, a fifth century Buddhist take on such and such a sutta was, rather than necessarily the final authority. From a Mahāyāna perspective, for instance, I find Haribhadra's commentary on the Prajñāpāramitā/Abhisamayālaṅkāra fascinating, but it is clearly an interpretation informed by a particular later tradition and not so helpful for understanding the root text on its own terms.
Nalanda wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 4:50 am As for my tradition (by that I mean Mahayana/Vajrayana) is the lack of commentary on these texts the result of primarily focusing on Mahayana texts? And if so, is that because they didn't see the need to comment on the Nikaya texts as those were belonging to other parts of the tradition/schools, or perhaps the Mahayana texts themselves are the "commentaries" (of the Nikayas indirectly) in a way that actually explains the teachings using different narratives?
Mahāyāna sūtras have implicit intertextuality with the āgamas, but I don't think anyone had the idea that this is another "tradition/school" and thus the āgamas didn't matter. The Mahāyāna sūtras have the idea of the twelve-part canon (十二部経) which includes all of the other texts, but has the vaipulya sūtras (i.e. Mahāyāna sūtras) in addition. The Nirvāṇa sūtra puts it this way: the ideal knowledge of the Dharma is knowledge of the twelve-part canon (including all non-Mahāyāna texts). But if you only learn the vaipulya sūtras, that is sufficient. Out of those, if you only learn the Nirvāṇa Sūtra, that is still sufficient. And if out of the Nirvāṇa Sūtra you only remember a four-line verse, that is also sufficient. Other sūtras would have the same logic, but substitute their own name (this idea appears in the Prajñāpāramitā literature as well).

So, to answer your question, Mahāyāna/Vajrayāna itself did not see itself as a "tradition," it is just a set of scriptures within the larger Bauddha tradition. Within the libraries of texts wherever Mahāyāna sūtras were found in South Asia, they always find non-Mahāyāna sūtras. So, the idea that there's a distinct Mahāyāna school that should have its own commentaries on the Āgamas/Nikāyas is setting itself up for failure because the premises are faulty. There is no need for there to be a Mahāyāna commentary on the Āgamas/Nikāyas, because the schools that had Mahāyāna sūtras (e.g. Mūlasarvāstivāda, and also Theravāda in Sri Lanka until around the 12th C.) would have already a commentary on the Āgamas/Nikāyas. It is like asking, is there a Jātaka commentary on the Abhidhamma? They are just separate and self-sufficient expositions of the Dharma/Dhamma.
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Re: Commentaries on the Canonical Sutras?

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Zhen Li, what a treat it is to read that. I learned a lot. I have so much more to read.

Got some recommended reading in general to widen or deepen my knowledge of (about) Mahayana and/or Buddhist texts? Books or literatures you've read, perhaps courses that have led you to where you are now. I thank you in advance for any suggestions.
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Re: Commentaries on the Canonical Sutras?

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Nalanda wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 4:50 am Is it so that there are commentaries in the Pali tradition on what the Pali texts (the Nikayas primarily) are saying?
Yes, there are extensive commentaries on the Pali suttas that spell out how (the authors of the commentaries) read the suttas. If you read translations of the Pali canon by Bhikkhu Bodhi, etc, they often cite these commentaries in their footnotes.
Nalanda wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 4:50 amAre these commentaries in the form of Abhidamma or another?
The Pali commentaries are paracanonical texts, not Abhidharma. They are very much like some of the commentaries that exist in the Mahayana tradition, giving a running interpretation of a text, line by line or even word by word.

Abhidharma is to a lesser extent a source for how Agama/Nikaya texts were read. They cite passages and discuss them from time to time. It's not comprehensive, but they can be useful sometimes. The best example is Asanga's Yogacarabhumi (which is basically Mahayana Abhidharma). It's an indispensable source for studying the Samyukta Agama because it contains an extensive commentary on it, but there are also passages in other Abhidharma texts that are commentary.
Nalanda wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 4:50 amAre you familiar with Lamotte said in his main book that a lot of texts have been lost?
Yes. We have only parts of the canons of early schools besides the Theravada. Most of the Sarvastivada canon (we are missing their Ekottarika Agama and the Dirgha Agama is nearly lost) and a good chunk of the Dharmaguptaka canon (their Dirgha Agama, Vinaya, and Abhidharma exists) have survived in translation. There are some bits and pieces of others. When Buddhism disappeared from India, these textual traditions disappeared too, if they weren't translated to other languages. The Pali canon survived intact because it had left India beforehand.
Nalanda wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 4:50 amBasically, the reason for this inquiry (about commentaries) is to properly / deeply understand the texts as they were understood by earlier Buddhists, Buddhist scholars, historical minds of Buddhism, etc.

As for my tradition (by that I mean Mahayana/Vajrayana) is the lack of commentary on these texts the result of primarily focusing on Mahayana texts? And if so, is that because they didn't see the need to comment on the Nikaya texts as those were belonging to other parts of the tradition/schools, or perhaps the Mahayana texts themselves are the "commentaries" (of the Nikayas indirectly) in a way that actually explains the teachings using different narratives?
The Mahayana tradition suffered loss of literature too when Buddhism declined in India. There are some commentaries like the one on the Pancavimsati Prajnaparamita Sutra mention earlier in the thread. If they reached Central Asia or northwest India, some of them were translated to Chinese or Tibetan. There was a loss of texts that were translated as well. Chinese records give us a good idea of that. But because Mahayana was widely adopted in Central Asia, China, and Tibet, its texts survived better than the early Buddhist canons. Texts that people were reading were the ones they kept copying and distributing in ancient times. Texts that fell into obscurity were often lost completely. It's kind of amazing the Agamas survived in Chinese given how little attention they received until the last century or so.
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Re: Commentaries on the Canonical Sutras?

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cdpatton wrote:
thanks cdpatton

Any tips to enrich my understanding of Buddhist texts and history in general? Any books/courses you'd recommend?
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Re: Commentaries on the Canonical Sutras?

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This is a really enjoyable thread. :cheers:

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Re: Commentaries on the Canonical Sutras?

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Yes truly. I appreciate the wisdom being shared.
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Re: Commentaries on the Canonical Sutras?

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Nalanda wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 12:48 pm Zhen Li, what a treat it is to read that. I learned a lot. I have so much more to read.

Got some recommended reading in general to widen or deepen my knowledge of (about) Mahayana and/or Buddhist texts? Books or literatures you've read, perhaps courses that have led you to where you are now. I thank you in advance for any suggestions.
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Primary sources are great, but there are some general sources that might help to orient yourself. I am not sure where you are in your reading process.

However, I'd go with Paul Williams' Mahāyāna Buddhism: The Doctrinal Foundations as an orientation to what there is. You can also use his bibliography and references to help you find other materials, though keep in mind that it won't have the latest literature as the book is now 13 years old. Also, while it is useful, it's not from a Buddhist perspective—the author is an academic and a devout Catholic.

For a more general overview, I'd suggest Buddhist Thought: A Complete Introduction to the Indian Tradition by Paul Williams, Anthony Tribe, and Alexander Wynne because it has a very understandable and digestible description of the doctrines of the various schools of Indian Buddhism.

I'd just start from these general overviews (you could also look into similar books for Tibetan or East Asian Buddhism) and then narrow it down to what you're interested in.

For scriptures, I'd recommend starting with Bhikkhu Bodhi's anthology In the Buddha's Words for an overview of the Nikāya teachings. Then in terms of Mahāyāna texts, definitely start with the Lotus Sutra, Perfection of Wisdom in 8000 Lines, Lankavatara, and Pure Land sutras. There are so many directions to go in, but it is best not to just read broadly, but to read sutras in depth. If you can find a reading group, or better yet a teacher, who will go through these with you, that's ideal.
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Re: Commentaries on the Canonical Sutras?

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This is a great list
-the Lotus Sutra,
-Perfection of Wisdom in 8000 Lines,
- the Lankavatara sutra,
and Pure Land sutras.
But it reflects the philosophical umbrella of the East Asian [Chinese] Buddhism of The Lotus and Avataṃsaka Sūtra Schools as well as their Japanese and Korean Chan/Zen offshoots. A "Power of Other" philosophy... one that I suggest the Gotama as represented by the Nikayas would not represent.
Think of those "Faith" verses "Works" controversy in Christianity.
In that it's almost Christmas I will turn the other cheek and merely suggests there is another suasion. :namaste:
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Re: Commentaries on the Canonical Sutras?

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Leo Rivers wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 6:50 pm This is a great list
-the Lotus Sutra,
-Perfection of Wisdom in 8000 Lines,
- the Lankavatara sutra,
and Pure Land sutras.
But it reflects the philosophical umbrella of the East Asian [Chinese] Buddhism of The Lotus and Avataṃsaka Sūtra Schools as well as their Japanese and Korean Chan/Zen offshoots. A "Power of Other" philosophy... one that I suggest the Gotama as represented by the Nikayas would not represent.
Think of those "Faith" verses "Works" controversy in Christianity.
In that it's almost Christmas I will turn the other cheek and merely suggests there is another suasion. :namaste:
Gotama "as represented by the Nikayas" from the perspective of the Mahāyāna is employing skilful means when he teaches śrāvakayāna. So, it's entirely consistent.

These sūtras are important in Himalayan Buddhism as well, but maybe to round it out, you could read some more ritual/"tantric" texts like the Mañjuśrīyamūlakalpa.
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Re: Commentaries on the Canonical Sutras?

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Zhen Li absolutely true.

My idea was to to point out that the list was representative of the East Asian perspective of the Dharma... the most wide spread by far in influence, but a list of Mahayana sutras not founded on the Buddha Nature concept is both historically and as far as existent Mahayana groups possible too. I am not a scholar by either traditional standards or Western scholarship standards so I'll leave it to someone else to suggest a canon not based on Tathāgatagarbha sutras.

Hosso though weak in Japan still exists and other Mahayanas not Buddha Nature based as well perhaps?
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Re: Commentaries on the Canonical Sutras?

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Leo Rivers wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:29 am Zhen Li absolutely true.

My idea was to to point out that the list was representative of the East Asian perspective of the Dharma... the most wide spread by far in influence, but a list of Mahayana sutras not founded on the Buddha Nature concept is both historically and as far as existent Mahayana groups possible too. I am not a scholar by either traditional standards or Western scholarship standards so I'll leave it to someone else to suggest a canon not based on Tathāgatagarbha sutras.

Hosso though weak in Japan still exists and other Mahayanas not Buddha Nature based as well perhaps?
The set of nine on the website linked in my signature, the Navagrantha, is a kind of short canon of what is considered the core or essential Mahāyāna sūtras in Nepal. Tathāgatagarbha/Buddha Nature is rather a weak presence in these texts, but is there nonetheless.
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Re: Commentaries on the Canonical Sutras?

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I looked up "nine sutras" on Google and got something called. Osho Nine Sutras. My take on this guy isn't great. But then
I noticed your note and found

The Navagrantha

Prajñāparamitā (Aṣṭasāhasrikā), The Perfection of Wisdom — 2017 (Complete) https://huntingtonarchive.org/resources ... asrika.pdf
Gaṇḍavyūha, The Array of Heroes — 2019 (Complete)
Daśabhūmika, The Ten Stages — 2017 (Complete)
Samādhirāja, The King of Samādhis — 2017 (Incomplete; to be revised)
Laṅkāvatāra, The Descent into Laṅka — 2018 (Complete)
Saddharmapuṇḍarīkā, The White Lotus of the True Law — 2016-17 (Complete)
Lalitavistara, The Play in Full — 2018 (Complete)
Suvarṇaprabhāsa, The Golden Light — 2017 (Complete)
Tathāgataguhya, The Secret of the Tathāgata

WOW. This is a list you can fill a shelf with ¡! ....> :reading:
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I was inspired to create a list of my own:
:namaste:


Saṃdhinirmocana­nā sūtra
https://read.84000.co/translation/UT22084-049-001.html


Mahāyānasaṃgraha
https://archive.org/details/MahayanaSam ... hToEnglish

優婆塞戒經
Sūtra of the Upāsaka Precepts
https://www.sutrasmantras.info/sutra33a.html

佛說彌勒大成佛經
Buddha Pronounces the Sūtra
of Maitreya Bodhisattva’s Attainment of Buddhahood
https://www.sutrasmantras.info/sutra11.html


A Study of the Buddhabhūmyupadeśa: The Doctrinal Development of the Notion of Wisdom in Yogācāra Thought (Contemporary Issues in Buddhist Studies)
https://www.amazon.com/gp/cart/view.html?ref_=nav_cart

A Comprehensive Commentary on the Heart Sutra by Kuiji
https://bdkamerica.org/download/1876

Jōkei
https://web.archive.org/web/20140407095 ... g47342.pdf

Anarchy in the Pure Land: Reinventing the Cult of Maitreya in Modern Chinese Buddhism
https://www.amazon.com/dp/0190491167?ps ... ct_details

Zen Anarchism: The Egalitarian Dharma of Uchiyama Gudo
https://www.amazon.com/dp/0190491167?ps ... ct_details

Takagi Kenmyo and Buddhist Socialism
https://www.academia.edu/6206002 Takagi ... _Socialism


Taixu’s ‘On the Establishment of the Pure Land in the Human Realm’: A Translation and Study
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08QN ... =pd_gw_unk
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Re: Commentaries on the Canonical Sutras?

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Nalanda wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 5:50 pm
cdpatton wrote:
thanks cdpatton

Any tips to enrich my understanding of Buddhist texts and history in general? Any books/courses you'd recommend?
Wikipedia's History of Buddhism page is a good starting place. Pick out areas of interest and look into some of the books they cite in the notes at the end of the article. Buddhism is a pretty massive topic, so scholars and historians generally pick a region or era to study and write about. (I'm more of a Chinese Buddhist/early Mahayana/EBT person these days.) I think anyone interested in the early history of Mahayana or EBT traditions should look into the history of Central Asia and the near East as well. Buddhism didn't exist in isolation. The era 0 AD to 500 AD was formative (and we have actual texts and history to study, unlike the BC eras).
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Re: Commentaries on the Canonical Sutras?

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Believe me, pursuing these entries gives you a picture that isn't 100% but has what old movie buffs call "SCOPE"!
:reading:

Encyclopedia of Indian Philosophies: Vol 7 Abhidharma Buddhism to 150 A.D. (Encyclopedia of Indian Philosophies) by Karl H. Potter Hardcover – May 1, 1999
https://www.amazon.com/Encyclopedia-Ind ... 8959&psc=1



Encyclopedia of Indian Philosophies: Vol 8 Buddhist Philosophy from 100 to 350 A.D by Karl H. Potter
Hardcover – May 1, 1999
by Karl H. Potter (Editor)

https://www.amazon.com/Encyclopedia-Ind ... 812081553X



Encyclopaedia of Indian Philosophies, v. 9: Buddhist Philosophy from 350 to 600 AD. by Karl H. Potter | Jan 1, 2008

https://www.amazon.com/Encyclopaedia-In ... +H.+Potter


or GO BIG! Encyclopedia of Indian Philosophies (Set of 25 Books) 0FREE Delivery $1271.25 https://www.exoticindiaart.com/book/de ... ks-nal124/ :alien:


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Re: Commentaries on the Canonical Sutras?

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Thanks Leo. I bought the 3 volumes just now.

Would you happen to know the contents of these later volumes? I couldn't find any description of contents online.


Volume XXI: Buddhist Philosophy from 600 to 750 A.D.

Volume XXII: Buddhist Philosophy from 750 A.D. onwards.
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Re: Commentaries on the Canonical Sutras?

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I believe the next series within the 25, following Buddhist philosophy to 750 to 1100 are a series about the Jain philosphy. In other words, the 25 vol set covers Indian philosophy. The full list ... I've never seen.

YMMV. :cheers:
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Re: Commentaries on the Canonical Sutras?

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Nalanda wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 9:45 pm Thanks Leo. I bought the 3 volumes just now.

Would you happen to know the contents of these later volumes? I couldn't find any description of contents online.


Volume XXI: Buddhist Philosophy from 600 to 750 A.D.

Volume XXII: Buddhist Philosophy from 750 A.D. onwards.
I think all the info you want is on this page -
Leo Rivers wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 3:21 am ...

or GO BIG! Encyclopedia of Indian Philosophies (Set of 25 Books) 0FREE Delivery $1271.25 https://www.exoticindiaart.com/book/de ... ks-nal124/ :alien:


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- but with a bit of poking around.

:coffee:
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