MPNS on Women

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: MPNS on Women

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

LastLegend wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 7:34 pm Facts:

Women do child birth and more nurturing to their child. Same in the animal kingdom. This is example of women have heavier karma. No?
That's not exclusively true in the animal kingdom at all, there a bunch of different social setups among animals, many of which don't compare to human gender roles in any meaningful way.
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Malcolm
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Re: MPNS on Women

Post by Malcolm »

LastLegend wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 7:16 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 7:11 pm
LastLegend wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 6:59 pm You guys are liberal I get it, but doesn’t make your thoughts more accurate.
Actually it does. If you investigate carefully, you will find reality has a liberal bias.
Accurate how? You would need to provide specific examples if you assume there isn’t a karma different between a male and a female. It doesn’t make them less becoming a Buddha if they pursue Dharma.

You would need to give specific examples on how women and men think behave through body speech and mind which associate with karma. It requires observation. If you want to say they are not different.
I was responding to your assertion about liberals not having more accurate thoughts. Of course we do.
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Re: MPNS on Women

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LastLegend wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 7:34 pm Facts:

Women do child birth and more nurturing to their child. Same in the animal kingdom. This is example of women have heavier karma. No?
It is not. It's an example of karma around child birth. It's very easy to come up with examples of women who have not given birth to a child. Therefore since womanhood is not equivalent to child birth, the karma is about child birth and not womanhood.
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Re: MPNS on Women

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LastLegend wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 7:16 pm

You would need to give specific examples on how women and men think behave through body speech and mind which associate with karma. It requires observation. If you want to say they are not different.
What does that mean? Of course women are generally "different" in some ways, so what? There is a wide continuum of how people are, and it is due to all sort of different factors, conditioning, hormones, value system and culture, etc. That has always been so, the variety of karmic setups is incalculable.
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Re: MPNS on Women

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Malcolm wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 7:41 pm
LastLegend wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 7:34 pm Facts:

Women do child birth and more nurturing to their child. Same in the animal kingdom. This is example of women have heavier karma. No?
No, this is an example of how women have more opportunity to generate merit.
If the opportunity in them arises and allows them to do so.
It’s eye blinking.
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Re: MPNS on Women

Post by Malcolm »

LastLegend wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 7:50 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 7:41 pm
LastLegend wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 7:34 pm Facts:

Women do child birth and more nurturing to their child. Same in the animal kingdom. This is example of women have heavier karma. No?
No, this is an example of how women have more opportunity to generate merit.
If the opportunity in them arises and allows them to do so.
Merely being a mother has great merit, much more than being a father.
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causing one to fall into the ocean of samsāra."
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Re: MPNS on Women

Post by LastLegend »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 8:04 pm
LastLegend wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 7:50 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 7:41 pm

No, this is an example of how women have more opportunity to generate merit.
If the opportunity in them arises and allows them to do so.
Merely being a mother has great merit, much more than being a father.
Well we might be working with the following assumptions:

1) Men oppress women which prevent them from pursuing Dharma or becoming a Buddha. Which explain the disparity in Dharma community.

2) Women are free to make a choice to pursue Dharma. At least today. The disparity is still there ?

3) Women and men play equal roles to share responsibilities...able to have jobs that they were once forbidden. Possible reasons: 1) women feel less because men make them feel less so they have to prove that they can do more or equal. 2)

4) Women traditionally have played heavier roles than men but this has changed now that men partaking in helping women with shared responsibilities. Heavier roles because men made those heavier roles.

5) Women and men’ roles were originally equal and no roles were heavier than others just that men made women feel less.
It’s eye blinking.
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Re: MPNS on Women

Post by Malcolm »

LastLegend wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 8:28 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 8:04 pm
LastLegend wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 7:50 pm

If the opportunity in them arises and allows them to do so.
Merely being a mother has great merit, much more than being a father.
Well we might be working with the following assumptions:
The assumption I work with is that we cannot say anything about anyone's karma unless we are buddhas ourselves.
"Conceptuality is great ignorance,
causing one to fall into the ocean of samsāra."
—Māyājālamahātantra
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Re: MPNS on Women

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We can assess

1) Whether gender equality was a real issue for human ancestors who were hunter-gathers. Or this is an issue because cultural lense says so. Or see if traditional couples (up to 100 years old) worldwide have to say about gender equality if it is real issue for them.

2) So then is gender equality really a modern phenomenon? It’s all men’s fault?
It’s eye blinking.
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Re: MPNS on Women

Post by Malcolm »

LastLegend wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 9:04 pm traditional couples (up to 100 years old) worldwide have to say about gender equality if it is real issue for them.
Ask the wives. The husbands will have no clue.
"Conceptuality is great ignorance,
causing one to fall into the ocean of samsāra."
—Māyājālamahātantra
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Re: MPNS on Women

Post by Lotomístico »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 9:20 pm
LastLegend wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 9:04 pm traditional couples (up to 100 years old) worldwide have to say about gender equality if it is real issue for them.
Ask the wives. The husbands will have no clue.
:popcorn: :rolling: I'm enjoying the responses, this thread is on fire.
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Re: MPNS on Women

Post by Zhen Li »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 7:41 pm
LastLegend wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 7:34 pm Facts:

Women do child birth and more nurturing to their child. Same in the animal kingdom. This is example of women have heavier karma. No?
No, this is an example of how women have more opportunity to generate merit.
I have been trying to accomodate the comments presented in the Mahāyāna sūtras to an understanding of the Buddha's skilful means which can mesh with and adjust to different cultural values, from misogynistic values to modern liberal values. The idea is that cultural and individual context matters with regards to the teachings given, as well as whether something is regarded a fortunate or unfortunate state.

In regard to female birth and karma, it is worth pointing out that the view that female birth is due to bad karma is contextual—i.e. if she is born in a society disadvantages women. Anālayo Bhikkhu makes this point in an article entitlted "Karma and Female Birth" and gives the contrary example of Bhaddā Kapilānī who was foremost in liberation by faith and chose to continue to be born as a female.

Supposing there were a matriarchal society rather than a patriarchal one, surely being born male would be due to one's bad karma. So, it is not a question of whether being born female is good or bad karma, but what disadvantages one would gain by being born male or female and how this corresponds to one's past deeds—which is largely inscrutible without the divine eye.

Coming back to the topic of the thread, the question is whether the MPNS's comments on this matter are subverting conventional gender norms. Yes they are. If you reject the idea that "women" can be regarded as "men" because of their practice, it is to essentialise gender labels. This paradigm of course only makes sense in the terms and context of a misogynistic society, so that must be understood. This means that the same idea is expressed today in different terms—but the same principle may work in some societies still. Like I mentioned, I have met many women who would rather be men—this does not mean these views are right or wrong, they are contextual and conditioned by circumstances, as with any views.
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Re: MPNS on Women

Post by Malcolm »

Zhen Li wrote: Fri Jul 16, 2021 3:03 am
Coming back to the topic of the thread, the question is whether the MPNS's comments on this matter are subverting conventional gender norms. Yes they are.
No, it just reinforces them.
"Conceptuality is great ignorance,
causing one to fall into the ocean of samsāra."
—Māyājālamahātantra
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