Warriors of Buddhism:sutta-nipitaka, anguttara-nikaya, catukaka-nipata

Discuss and learn about the traditional Mahayana scriptures, without assuming that any one school ‘owns’ the only correct interpretation.
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neander
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Warriors of Buddhism:sutta-nipitaka, anguttara-nikaya, catukaka-nipata

Post by neander »

I am reading the paper Warriors of Buddhism from C.Gilliberg that I find very interesting.

I came across Kittivuddho Bhikku statement:

Kittivuddho Bhikku even refers to the Buddha and the scriptures and
claim that the Buddha taught men to kill. He writes:

"He taught us to kill. Venerable sirs, you are likely to be suspicious about
this teaching. I will tell you the sutta and you can investigate: (It is) the
Kesi-sutta in the Kesiya-vagga, the sutta-nipitaka, anguttara-nikaya, catukaka-nipata. If you open (this text) venerable sirs, you will find that the Lord Buddha ordered killing. (Keyes 1978: 154.)"

I was able to find Kesi-sutta but cannot locate the sentences in:

sutta-nipitaka, anguttara-nikaya, catukaka-nipat

Can anyone pointing me where to find the actual sentences Kittivuddho Bhikku is referring to ?

Thanks
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Warriors of Buddhism:sutta-nipitaka, anguttara-nikaya, catukaka-nipata

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Here is the Kesi Sutta:
https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an ... .than.html

Kesi is a horse trainer. The Buddha asks him what happens to a horse he can’t tame. Kesi says he kills such a horse.

The Buddha is saying to Kesi that he doesn’t spend time trying to ‘tame’ a person who can’t be ‘tamed’ (meaning taught to practice the teachings).

When the Buddha says, “I kill him” it means he abandons such an untamable person, and he’s decided about it.

It means that, just as Kesi will kill a wild horse he can’t tame, The Buddha simply won’t try to teach a person who won’t listen to the teachings. He’s absolute about this. There’s no going back, just as if Kesi were to kill a horse, he couldn’t change his mind afterwards and keep trying to train him.

Kesi grasps this analogy, and The Buddha congratulates him on his understanding.
Last edited by PadmaVonSamba on Sun Feb 21, 2021 12:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook develops outward insight.
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Aryjna
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Re: Warriors of Buddhism:sutta-nipitaka, anguttara-nikaya, catukaka-nipata

Post by Aryjna »

neander wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 11:08 am I am reading the paper Warriors of Buddhism from C.Gilliberg that I find very interesting.

I came across Kittivuddho Bhikku statement:

Kittivuddho Bhikku even refers to the Buddha and the scriptures and
claim that the Buddha taught men to kill. He writes:

"He taught us to kill. Venerable sirs, you are likely to be suspicious about
this teaching. I will tell you the sutta and you can investigate: (It is) the
Kesi-sutta in the Kesiya-vagga, the sutta-nipitaka, anguttara-nikaya, catukaka-nipata. If you open (this text) venerable sirs, you will find that the Lord Buddha ordered killing. (Keyes 1978: 154.)"

I was able to find Kesi-sutta but cannot locate the sentences in:

sutta-nipitaka, anguttara-nikaya, catukaka-nipat

Can anyone pointing me where to find the actual sentences Kittivuddho Bhikku is referring to ?

Thanks
Kittivuddho Bhikku is clearly an idiot.
neander
Posts: 34
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2020 10:24 pm

Re: Warriors of Buddhism:sutta-nipitaka, anguttara-nikaya, catukaka-nipata

Post by neander »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 12:12 pm Here is the Kesi Sutta:
https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an ... .than.html

Kesi is a horse trainer. The Buddha asks him what happens to a horse he can’t tame. Kesi says he kills such a horse.

The Buddha is saying to Kesi that he doesn’t spend time trying to ‘tame’ a person who can’t be ‘tamed’ (meaning taught to practice the teachings).

When the Buddha says, “I kill him” it means he abandons such an untamable person, and he’s decided about it.

It means that, just as Kesi will kill a wild horse he can’t tame, The Buddha simply won’t try to teach a person who won’t listen to the teachings. He’s absolute about this. There’s no going back, just as if Kesi were to kill a horse, he couldn’t change his mind afterwards and keep trying to train him.

Kesi grasps this analogy, and The Buddha congratulates him on his understanding.
Thanks I found already that one,the others I do not find them anywhere
avatamsaka3
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Re: Warriors of Buddhism:sutta-nipitaka, anguttara-nikaya, catukaka-nipata

Post by avatamsaka3 »

Kesi-sutta in the Kesiya-vagga, the sutta-nipitaka, anguttara-nikaya, catukaka-nipata.
The Kesi Sutta is in the Sutta Pitaka (the Basket of Discourses), in the Anguttara Nikaya (the Numbered Discourses), in the Catukka Nipata (the Book of Fours), in the Kesi Vagga.

And it's quite clear in the sutta that the Buddha does not condone the unforgiveable:
"It is true, Kesi, that it's not proper for a Tathagata to take life. But if a tamable person doesn't submit either to a mild training or to a harsh training or to a mild & harsh training, then the Tathagata doesn't regard him as being worth speaking to or admonishing. His knowledgeable fellows in the holy life don't regard him as being worth speaking to or admonishing. This is what it means to be totally destroyed in the Doctrine & Discipline, when the Tathagata doesn't regard one as being worth speaking to or admonishing, and one's knowledgeable fellows in the holy life don't regard one as being worth speaking to or admonishing."
This is a good example of: A falsehood can get halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to put its pants on.
neander
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Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2020 10:24 pm

Re: Warriors of Buddhism:sutta-nipitaka, anguttara-nikaya, catukaka-nipata

Post by neander »

so as far as I understand Kittivuddho Bhikku was referring just to 1 Sutta but present un 3 different collections of Sutta
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