1000 to 1500 Chinese spies might be at Bodhgaya Kalacakra

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Huifeng
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Re: 1000 to 1500 Chinese spies might be at Bodhgaya Kalacakra

Post by Huifeng »

gregkavarnos wrote:
ronnewmexico wrote:Han becoming
Tibetan buddhists....who woulda thought....few seemingly. Few indeed.
Actually the Han have been practicing Tibetan Vajrayana for quite some time. For example the Yonghe Lamasery in Beijing was established in 1744 by the Emporer Jialong as a shedra for Gelugpa lamas.
:namaste:
Yeah, the "Han" have been doing this for centuries, mainly during the Yuan and Qing, but a lot during the Republic now too.

~~ Huifeng
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ronnewmexico
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Re: 1000 to 1500 Chinese spies might be at Bodhgaya Kalacakra

Post by ronnewmexico »

By my take and as mentioned....the han useage of buddhism was essentially stamped out during the cultural revolution.
It did of course reinstate itself, but effectively during that time there were no Han practicing.
If they did they would be killed or tortured or reeducated, another form of torture.

Han returning to buddhism....I see it as predictable. I was joking when I state, no kidding :smile: That is why we are seeing these spies they are not spies but yes..followers. This is not predictable by the powers that be in China. It that sense it is exactly...who wouda thought. Few indeed. Those in power predict this not. I suspect many tibetans expect this not as well. Some may.
China will of course return in part to buddhism....it has a long history of buddhism and the circumstances and tendencies that presented that are largly remaining. The overt surpression of the religion is gone. The desire to influence the religion to political aim remains.
"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.
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Nemo
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Re: 1000 to 1500 Chinese spies might be at Bodhgaya Kalacakra

Post by Nemo »

Remember there was a Maoist revolution in Nepal. Sponsored and supplied by Chinese hoping to destroy Nepal's ties with india. Tibetan Buddhist's are anti-China. Tibetans taking Kalachakra are a threat to Chinese sovereignty.

Chinese planned to assassinate the Dalai Lama for years. Killed over a million Tibetans and performed cultural genocide by flooding Tibet with Han. The question is not what they want to do to these "dissidents". It is how they plan on disposing of the bodies.
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Grigoris
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Re: 1000 to 1500 Chinese spies might be at Bodhgaya Kalacakra

Post by Grigoris »

Nemo wrote:Tibetans taking Kalachakra are a threat to Chinese sovereignty.
How exactly?
Chinese planned to assassinate the Dalai Lama for years. Killed over a million Tibetans and performed cultural genocide by flooding Tibet with Han. The question is not what they want to do to these "dissidents". It is how they plan on disposing of the bodies.
Ummm... I think you will find that it the Chinese government that planned and orchestrated these events. I think that you will also find that many Chinese citizens do not agree with their governments policies but, due to the fact that they live in an authoritarian state, CHINESE dissidents are also tortured and executed and their bodies are disposed of.

The problem is not racial (Han vs Tibetan) as such, that's just the window dressing. Let's not forget the example of our beloved European authoritarians: the Nazi. They didn't just kill Jews did they? They also killed "German" (as if the Jews were not German) communists, socialists, catholics, trade unionists, pacifists, etc... Just like the government of the PRC.
:namaste:
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"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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ronnewmexico
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Re: 1000 to 1500 Chinese spies might be at Bodhgaya Kalacakra

Post by ronnewmexico »

If han are involved with this ritual it is not a threat to chinese sovern status, it affirms it, it is to their benefit.
It extends their claim on Tibet...they are like us Han we thusly rightly hold claim.

REally being lost in the past on this thing does not serve to understand this thing.
I may then state as well of america...they try and managed to kill many elected or otherwise chosen heads of states, such as Fidel Castro, killed many hundreds of thousands in their genocidal migration of europeans into native lands and do indeed presently hold without charge and trial and do torture many others.

China is a asian government of totalitarian nature. To infer this is a attempt at squashing the religion of buddhism for political ideology of communism....is not at all the fact.
Spies....sure a couple of spies to see what is going on, keep tabs on things certainly. Asian governments historically manage religions....so this is part and parcel of that, especially in a totalitarian form of asian government.

We are then spies a thousand or so writing down names as to who is a religious person attending this thing and then tracking down and killing or imprisioning their relatives in china who may also hold such religious beliefs.....yes in the cultural revolution time that would have been done....now....no.
Buddhism is a expression of nationalistic identity and in a way, a revolt against the theist government who is their economic foe....america.
Their support for burma, Sri Lanka, with arms, and other....this is not a antibuddhist government prosecuting that thing.
Manageing it...yes to their political benefit.

Asian politic is very very complex beyond the ability of most westerners considiering their lack of attention to the issue..hence past political mistakes such as vietnam. cambodia and others. It is never simple. Look to the most complex answer to things in this politic... that is most likely the probable answer.

Nepal??...their politic is about twice as complex as chinas. Does anyone here ever wonder how china...... americans being fed the pap of vietnam being a puppet state during that bad old day....did not three years after attaining south vietnam go to war with china and win???
If you apply simplisitc things to the politic of asia you are invariably wrong and then invariably surprised....when things occur you did not expect.

Vietnam attacked china years years after the end of the vietnam war.....I didn't know that????
Yes most americans do not even know that. Pol Pot renounced communism in the last several years of rouge rule and did you know despite the millions killed the US was the virtual last country to recognize not Pol Pots representative in the UN....do americans not know that as well...they do not know that.

Moral high card the west cannot throw at China...they did and do equal things of harm.

As a aside I would be very careful on what I wish for. With the end of Saddam Husseins totalitarian regime occured the widespread killing of minority suni by shia in iraq. With the end of the totalitarian regime of the soviets the elected representives of certain states waged genocide of christian against muslim in europe. And on and on...totalitarianism if a pattern one can not just walk away from. Peoples used to such things require education to learn how things are done. The colonial experience speaks of this as well..minority was always used in colonial expansion to run things, When freedom is found from colonialism like as not the minority is then killed and or defranchized..

So keep in mind in tibet....tibetans in a hitorical context are now the minority. Whats to say with freedom,(a bit of a joke that)....tibetans would then be free and not under a even more repressive han majority oppression. Voting wise, if that could even be done....they would loose.
So watch what we are asking for here is my advice....why repeat the past it is so close to us?
"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.
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Nemo
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Re: 1000 to 1500 Chinese spies might be at Bodhgaya Kalacakra

Post by Nemo »

What China are you talking about? The one that sold Falun Gong dissidents organs on Ebay?
Or perhaps this one;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oo7BDbH1 ... r_embedded" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

China is morally broken beyond the comprehension of the Western mind.
Sadly we can throw the moral high card at China. They are that bad.
IMO there is no Tibet left to free. That boat sailed years ago.
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Grigoris
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Re: 1000 to 1500 Chinese spies might be at Bodhgaya Kalacakra

Post by Grigoris »

Nemo wrote:What China are you talking about? The one that sold Falun Gong dissidents organs on Ebay?
Or perhaps this one;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oo7BDbH1 ... r_embedded" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

China is morally broken beyond the comprehension of the Western mind.
Sadly we can throw the moral high card at China. They are that bad.
IMO there is no Tibet left to free. That boat sailed years ago.
You said "Chinese" did these things, the Falung Gong dissidents were Chinese too, did they do these things? I doubt it, coz they were dead and cut up into little pieces. There is a difference between the Government of PRC and their stooges and the majority of Chinese (people) that are oppressed and terrorised by "their" government.

Under other circumstances the US government (the military, that is) would have ordered a "liberation" of China, but the Chinese government has too many atomic weapons and the American state owes them too much money.
:namaste:
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Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Re: 1000 to 1500 Chinese spies might be at Bodhgaya Kalacakra

Post by ronnewmexico »

N...the most perposterous things are said about china. Check things said about venezuela, cuba and about any other place that is adverserial to the west and its media thusly.

Did you know Yugo Chavez is a heinous dictator that had his peoples shoot innocent civilians protesting.....find it on the tube or find it directly stated in the media. Will they also tell you that the people that tried to remove him by force from his elected position.....they earn their monies on "speaking" engagements for the US Republican National party.....since they speak only spanish for the most part I'd like to see those speeches. Will they tell you Hugo Chavez has been through multiple elections verified as legitimate by international groups who do such things.....no they will not tell you that.
They also will not tell you how many die as a result of their various engagements and exercises of influence....Iraq...try 600,000, dead prematurely as result.
Ascertained by standard methadology used by the UN in such matters of determination.
Where be then the 600,000 dead by chinese hand in these last ten years...even your media will not claim that.

But feel free to believe all you hear about china and anywhere else.
I say when will you all wake up...but that's just me. Propoganda is propoganda regardless of how nobel the intention.

China...sure a totalitarian regime, who does imprison any who are considered threatening the order of things. Such was done in china by various parties who held control of various parts of it... for probably at least 3000 years.
Evil monsterous peoples...no. Is the government at times...sure. Much worse though in years past then right now. Now comparitively pretty placid.
US....seems headed in another direction.

And I say again...watch for what you wish for. Han very many thing tibetans are coddlled by the government... able for instance to carry weapons openly at times and in certain places, while those han cannot. And han compete directly with tibetan for land resources and employment. So Han....no totalitarian government to reign them in.....wild west american massacres of innocent women and children, as they did the natives.... I find not all that far fetched.
China will change it has to. From within that is the best. HHDL, himself advocates for that.
Like with jewery and israel there is not just a one way to this thing, there are different approaches considered within the tibetan community itself.

If you want to believe all the nonsense spouted associated to this issue....good luck with that. When things happen that are not predicted by the painting of that picture will you then wake up and say....I will not be lied to again....no.... on to another is my guess. as americans are now onto Iran, and all that nonsense....no they will never learn...run out of money that is all.

Yes there is no tibet of a native tibet majority left, han are majority. So those that want to have Tibet seperate from china want what....
That boat has sailed but some....care not, look closely then at exactly what they advocate....it also is not pretty. The implications are obvious..this all now must be colored with the paint of present han majority....sad but it is fact.

So believe 1500 spies are in that place...believe away.
"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.
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Re: 1000 to 1500 Chinese spies might be at Bodhgaya Kalacakra

Post by Nemo »

You both seem a bit naive. PRC is bad ass. They kill and disappear their own citizens on a daily basis. You can still send your blood type/tissue matching to prisons in China and buy the organs you need. Tweet the words "Jasmine revolution" and you disappear. But you actually believe Tibetans can take initiations from the Dalai Lama who is charged with "Inciting splitting of state and sabotage of the state unity"(煽动分裂国家、破坏国家统一) and not be considered enemies of the state.

Watch that surveillance video. The country has lost it's moral centre, not just the PRC party members. The legacy of destroying religion and Confucian social constructs was to destroy morality. Party members are still banned from all religious activity. To say Chinese have religious freedom means you have a short term memory problem. Falun Gong was legal one day, the next they were in jail. The straw men of Venezuela. Iraq and Cuba are not relevant.
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Re: 1000 to 1500 Chinese spies might be at Bodhgaya Kalacakra

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There.... generally there is....not asian religious freedom

religions are allowd by their respective governments...that is how it always has been and remains mostly.
Any place free now...it is a recent invention, within the last hundred years. ASia....contextually wise a history....a hundred years is a very small blip. In the west it is a eternity.

HHDL is hated yes indeed.
As explained earlier..... his salary from the CIA, the avowed enemy of china and all things chinese, in years past will not alow other.
Tibetan buddhism....a thing to them to be managed.
Party officials...yes they manage that thing.
Quite often on a daily basis and to a very large extent determining who does what and who visits and who may go and come.
Is it free..of course not....it is asia.
Can a party member then directing such things be then directing themselves as members of the religion as well...seems not.
Conflicting that would be.

Applying western ways of culture to other culture invariably leads to misunderstanding of intention and result.
The CIA....the mover of replacement of other heads of state by assination and other means...of course it has relevence.
Accepting a salary from those people, though he had good substantial reason for it considering the circumstances.....they know the CIA having its druthers...would do the same to china...making it a puppet state a colony of sorts as were so many other places the US desired resources.
No straw man that....it is directly related.
Equating in the governments eyes HHDL and tibetan buddhism is not fact.
We know HHDL as spiirutal leader, they know him as avowed enemy. CIA salary proves that to them.

To the west the opium wars the imperialism all the rest are things lost in history. To the chinese it is as if these things happened yesterday.
The chinese..first and foremost nationalists. Buddhism is a very real part of that nation identity..they now realize that.
The CIA represents more than any other thing...western imperialism.
Of course I don't say they are right in that thing of hate of HHDL. But know why I certainly do. Confusing one with the other is mistaken.
"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.
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Re: 1000 to 1500 Chinese spies might be at Bodhgaya Kalacakra

Post by Grigoris »

Nemo wrote:You both seem a bit naive. PRC is bad ass. They kill and disappear their own citizens on a daily basis. You can still send your blood type/tissue matching to prisons in China and buy the organs you need. Tweet the words "Jasmine revolution" and you disappear. But you actually believe Tibetans can take initiations from the Dalai Lama who is charged with "Inciting splitting of state and sabotage of the state unity"(煽动分裂国家、破坏国家统一) and not be considered enemies of the state.

Watch that surveillance video. The country has lost it's moral centre, not just the PRC party members. The legacy of destroying religion and Confucian social constructs was to destroy morality. Party members are still banned from all religious activity. To say Chinese have religious freedom means you have a short term memory problem. Falun Gong was legal one day, the next they were in jail. The straw men of Venezuela. Iraq and Cuba are not relevant.
Okay, you are obviously not understanding what I am about to say for the THIRD time. Nobody said said that the Chnese Government and their mechanisms are not bad a**ed mother f***ers. But you have to understand that the Chinese people as a whole are NOT bad a**ed mother f***ers. They suffer as a consequence of their governments actions, as well as the Tibetans. They are systematically arrested, killed and tortured by their government, as well as the Tibetans. You know how many Chinese died as a consequence of the cultural revolution? At least 1.5 million CHINESE dead. Over 36 million CHINESE officially persecuted. Around 1 million CHINESE permanently injured. You know how many were starved to death during the Great Leap Forward? Numbers range from 18-45 million.

Of course some of the Chinese that went to receive the initiation from HHDL will be put under observation and persecuted. I'm not that stupid.

But it is not a race thing. It is an authoritarian government thing.

And I never said that there is freedom of any sort in China for any of its citizens. Except, of course, those at the highest levels of power.
:namaste:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Caz
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Re: 1000 to 1500 Chinese spies might be at Bodhgaya Kalacakra

Post by Caz »

What would be gained by spys being at the Kalachakra ? They would only be there for items that could be useful outside the religious arena. Unless there are some buisness meetings going on during it Tibetans like to use it as a large social gathering or so I hear that is those whom arent so bothered about the initation itself. :shrug:
Abandoning Dharma is, in the final analysis, disparaging the Hinayana because of the Mahayana; favoring the Hinayana on account of the Mahayana; playing off sutra against tantra; playing off the four classes of the tantras against each other; favoring one of the Tibetan schools—the Sakya, Gelug, Kagyu, or Nyingma—and disparaging the rest; and so on. In other words, we abandon Dharma any time we favor our own tenets and disparage the rest.

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Re: 1000 to 1500 Chinese spies might be at Bodhgaya Kalacakra

Post by michaelb »

As I understand it, the PRC government sees HH Dalai Lama as a purely political figure, and a splittist, at that. Therefore, they would be interested in any "Chinese citizen", Tibetan or Han, visiting this "wolf in monk's robes."

As for the point that many Chinese practice Tibetan Buddhism, here is an news item about Han Chinese following Tibetan Buddhism from last year:

http://www.theworld.org/2011/12/buddhis ... ife-china/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

They may be a bit confused about it in places though, maybe like many in the west.
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