Lama Ole Nydahl, what do you think?

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Enochian
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Re: Lama Ole Nydahl, what do you think?

Post by Enochian »

Namdrol is 100% correct.


If you leave Islam, you must be killed. This is actually a mainstream and common position among Muslims (excluding secularists).
There is an ever-present freedom from grasping the mind.

Mind being defined as the thing always on the Three Times.
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ronnewmexico
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Re: Lama Ole Nydahl, what do you think?

Post by ronnewmexico »

Nonsense...

that is not a mainstream interpretion, that is a interpretation that serves the political to serve their political agenda.

N...if you can't see the obvious potential implication of that tale.... who am I to say other.
Your fixed in your view...stick to it. I have nothing to add.

The extension of that thinking may be found in the book zen at war which I think is still in print. It provides the basic rational and point of view of the Japanes invasion of the chinese mainland and other areas of asia in recent days prior too ww2 from those buddhists who supported those things that resulted in much hatred and violence.

A minority certainly. But Buddhists of lineage did support that thing. The han all others were considered quite inferior and thusly as ones who knew better(as can be infered from that tale) had a responsibility to act morally. Politically it served the monied nationalistic interests who wanted to control those areas. Japan was not buddhist(the emperor) but minority support was required from the five or so sanctioned buddhist schools of the day in Japan.
That tale provides the basis from which such may be supported. More intelligence moral need action to include killing.
Last edited by ronnewmexico on Tue May 31, 2011 11:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.
Enochian
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Re: Lama Ole Nydahl, what do you think?

Post by Enochian »

ronnewmexico wrote:Nonsense...
Move overseas to an Arab country and marry a Muslim girl.

See what happens. :rolling:
There is an ever-present freedom from grasping the mind.

Mind being defined as the thing always on the Three Times.
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ronnewmexico
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Re: Lama Ole Nydahl, what do you think?

Post by ronnewmexico »

The politicians control the interpretaion of the koran as they see fit to enforce their totalitarian rule.
All totalitarians must invent a enemy if one is not readily apparent to maintain rule...that is the way of things. If one is not present externally one will be presented internally.

It says nothing of how scholors interpret the koran. Politicians may do what they will...what can be done with them? Blame the people for being used their religion perhaps likewise?
"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.
Malcolm
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Re: Lama Ole Nydahl, what do you think?

Post by Malcolm »

ronnewmexico wrote:
The extension of that thinking may be found in the book zen at war which I think is still in print. It provides the basic rational and point of view of the Japanes invasion of the chinese mainland and other areas of asia in recent days prior too ww2 from those buddhists who supported those things that resulted in much hatred and violence.

A minority certainly. But Buddhists of lineage did support that thing.
I don't think they used the jataka tales to support their POV. Brian Victoria's book pretty clearly lays out how they perverted Buddhist teachings with a nihilist interpretation of Zen. This aberration has far more to do with Meiji restoration cultural instability than Buddhism per se. A better example for your thesis would have been the monastic wars of the 12th and 13th century in Japan.

In any event, such occurrences are notable exceptions.

For example, you earlier brought up Chinese Maitreya millennialism; again, this type of aberration is a huge exception and had more to do with Chinese culture than Buddhism.

Certainly Buddhist have engaged in waging wars, but I cannot think of a single historical example of Buddhist waging a religious war against non-Buddhists. Can you?

N
"Nonduality is merely a name;
that name does not exist."
—Kotalipa
Malcolm
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Re: Lama Ole Nydahl, what do you think?

Post by Malcolm »

ronnewmexico wrote:The politicians control the interpretaion of the koran as they see fit to enforce their totalitarian rule.
This is just an apology because you cannot refute what is a fact in the hadiths. Can't come up with a good response? Blame politicians since we all know they are crooks.

Anyway, Islam is quite totalitarian. Since there is no priesthood in Islam, the injunction to kill apostates is a duty which any moslem can take upon themselves. Put them in a room. Give them three days to recant. Then if they do not, murder them. Nice. Definitely keeps Muslim exfiltration low.

N
"Nonduality is merely a name;
that name does not exist."
—Kotalipa
Enochian
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Re: Lama Ole Nydahl, what do you think?

Post by Enochian »

LOL ronniemexico,

HOw come whenever they hold completely free elections in Muslim areas, 90% of the people freely vote for the EXTREMISTS?
There is an ever-present freedom from grasping the mind.

Mind being defined as the thing always on the Three Times.
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ronnewmexico
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Re: Lama Ole Nydahl, what do you think?

Post by ronnewmexico »

Maietraya is specifically a buddhist figure and that example was used for purpose to exemplify that.
There is no way under the sun the chinese revolts of those days cannot be seen as directly related to buddhism as the figure the future buddha is exactly a invention of buddhism. And scale...I have already described the scale....dwarfs the US and other revolutionary wars.

Monastic infighting....can be found in many areas and times as you well know.

A war to spread buddhism.....depends upon perspective. The tamil tigers will and their supporters do in fact state that.
A war to spread it never is. They are less than us it is. It is our duty to help them to see things as we do for their own good.
Wars are never fought for the reasons expoused is my observation.
So why a war is fought is never to my observation to spread anything. It is fought to gain power and dominance, retrieve assets for your own....and called many many things. That speaks not of the religion nor of the wars...neither is found either to be what it is stated to be.

So one may call some thing anything that makes it not that thing. So I find one or not...makes not a whit of difference.What I would be finding is what a thing was called to be not what that thing is.
"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.
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Re: Lama Ole Nydahl, what do you think?

Post by Malcolm »

ronnewmexico wrote:Maietraya is specifically a buddhist figure and that example was used for purpose to exemplify that.
There is no way under the sun the chinese revolts of those days cannot be seen as directly related to buddhism as the figure the future buddha is exactly a invention of buddhism. And scale...I have already described the scale....dwarfs the US and other revolutionary wars.
The Maitreya Millenialism in 6th century China was not Buddhist.
Monastic infighting....can be found in many areas and times as you well know.
Very rarely did such infighting lead to wholesale wars anywhere but in Japan. Never in India. Almost never in Tibet.
A war to spread buddhism.....depends upon perspective. The tamil tigers will and their supporters do in fact state that.
The Tamils were introduced to Shri Lanka by the Brits as workers. This is much more like Northern Ireland than anything else. Eventually it became about religious identity. But it did not start that way. There was no war to spread Buddhism. There was a war to protect a Buddhism country, from the perspective of the Sinhalese.
That speaks not of the religion nor of the wars...neither is found either to be what it is stated to be.
Muslim religious wars were fought to make converts as well as $$$.
"Nonduality is merely a name;
that name does not exist."
—Kotalipa
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ronnewmexico
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Re: Lama Ole Nydahl, what do you think?

Post by ronnewmexico »

A example...a secular nation with equality of religion. Balance upset by british and US intervention. A dictator is enthroned. The result of this mileau, the dictator is overthrown....a theocratic totalitarian regime is result with a drastic interpretion of Islam.

Speaks to the nature of the religion???

Does the present theocracy believe it is right on the mark as far as the koran is concerned...certainly. Do the Tamils think they are right on the mark as concerning the buddhists of sri lanka...sure they do. Did the Christian crusaders think they may get papal dispensation enableing them to kill and eat muslim bodies when in need...sure they did.

None of this nor other speaks of the religions and what may be found or not found in them.

As a aside I see not the relevence...the Tamils were a native population to sri lanka. Additional Tamils were imported by the colonials.
AS regards Maietraya...of course this is considered to generally oppose buddhist view. Based upon Buddhism as the name infers is the concept. Once again peoples may interpret things as they will. The religion of the day was a composite of many. Strict buddhist ortheodoxy the notion of a future buddha...no of course not. Directly related to Buddhism as composite..... certainly.
As regards war one recently comes to mind the Sino Tibetan war as a extension of the monastic directed by the thirteenth. But it would depend upon what one classifies as war. Were monastics the warriors of the day in some context such as certain times in china Japan and even Tibet a mixing of the government and the religion having monastics in positions of war in various capacity...I'd say probably yes. So saying such were not wars...as they were involving monastics....I'd say not. In their day they were wars..not western wars wars nevertheless.

Colonialism was fought to get assets and convert peoples. Always in its inceptive phase the military was accompanied by the religious componant. By no accident was that.
So tit for tat this could go on for days months... this here that there....not a whit of difference.....it is not in the religion it is in the useage of religion for intent which allows for interpretation, in this fashion. The violent want to find violence within it and they will.
Takes a bit or a little but they will find it always.
"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.
Malcolm
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Re: Lama Ole Nydahl, what do you think?

Post by Malcolm »

[
ronnewmexico wrote:A example...a secular nation with equality of religion. Balance upset by british and US intervention. A dictator is enthroned. The result of this mileau, the dictator is overthrown....a theocratic totalitarian regime is result with a drastic interpretion of Islam.

Speaks to the nature of the religion???
Sure, of course.




Does the present theocracy believe it is right on the mark as far as the koran is concerned...certainly. Do the Tamils think they are right on the mark as concerning the buddhists of sri lanka...sure they do. Did the Christian crusaders think they may get papal dispensation enableing them to kill and eat muslim bodies when in need...sure they did.

None of this nor other speaks of the religions and what may be found or not found in them.
it is pretty clear that Mohammed was not a nice person. Not sure Jesus was such a nice guy either.

I don't really give a flying crap about these religions since they are based on delusion anyway.

I do care about the incredible harm both Xianity and Islam have wrought on the world throughout history. In particular I care about the fact that Islam hates Buddhism:

In Islam, širk (Arabic: شرك‎) is the sin of idolatry or polytheism. It refers to the deification of anyone or anything other than the singular God.[18] Shirk is also associating partners with him, giving his characteristics to others beside him, or not believing in his characteristics.[18][19]

Within Islam, širk is an unforgivable crime; God may forgive any sin except for committing širk.[18][20] It is the vice that is opposed to the virtue of tawhid, literally "declaring [that which is] one", often translated into the English term monotheism.[18][19]
As in the other Abrahamic religions, in practice the term has been greatly extended and may be used very widely within Islam to describe behaviour that is deprecated, including the use of images in a way that is seen as un-Islamic, but does not literally constitute worship.


For example, terming the Buddha omniscient is an example of "shirk".

So now a) can't leave Islam. Islam is a prison sentence for anyone born in a Muslim country. B) Buddhists and Hindus are all going to hell. Not even God can forgive us. Nice religion. Perfect control structure. if you can control people with their beliefs, you don't need external power structures.

N
"Nonduality is merely a name;
that name does not exist."
—Kotalipa
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ronnewmexico
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Re: Lama Ole Nydahl, what do you think?

Post by ronnewmexico »

I repeat again.... by their interpretations. The Koran by most educated opinions is not to be interpreted line by line verse by verse in a literal fashion. If so you inevitably arise with obvious contradictions. So we have governments useing that way of interpretion as "the" only interpretaion...that is simply not so.
A specific reference in the Koran can be taken to be exactly that...specific to the time and date it was spoken. So one may take most all religions by interpretion to mean certain things. Usually the literal is not the educated view on things of religious interpretaion.

Here is a written piece in the justifications on the SriLankan conflict which adds the issue of substantiation from a Buddhist
perspective, though it is a lengthy read. I personally in a mundane sense of things like these support their victory and war. Sri Lanka would not have remained as a majority Buddhist state with a seperate Tamil state on the island. The Tamils from India would certainly surely surplant the Sri Lankan Buddhists.
In a personal sense aside from the mundane... I admit I can support neither....http://www.misterdanger.net/books/Buddh ... dharma.pdf
But the war was not seperate from Buddhism and Buddhist rational. Page 35 or so begins with most of the dharmic discussion on religious rational, a very interesting read attesting to the complexity of the subject(I personally hold not those views nor opinions) .

I am again taking no hit on Buddhism..every religion can be means to this end. And those that bear this means like as not actually do really truly believe in it. Buddhism is the most peaceful of the large religions by far. The most peaceful...Jains by my take but that's a personal view.
"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.
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Re: Lama Ole Nydahl, what do you think?

Post by adinatha »

My friend is a Christian Assyrian from Iraq. He has to wear specific colored clothing and travel with armed guards if he leaves the village compound, for the risk of having his head sawed off. Those are his words. He says near his village is a women's prison, where men send their wives for any reason at all, just for being disagreeable. Woman who commit adultery can be murdered on the spot. He has a friend there who witnessed his mother's murder by his father, when she kissed another man. Now he has a "new mother." There is a great effort to be politically correct about Islam the way Americans became politically correct about race, gender and homosexuality. But the situation with Islam is different. Islam's texts and mainstream beliefs are very violent and oppressive. Then, there is the history of Islam destroying Buddhism with great force and violence, bombing our sanctuaries, etc. Buddhism never hit back. But I would never live in a Muslim country. It would be impossible to be Buddhist there. One of the conditions of a precious human life is living in a place where Buddhism may be practiced. Living in a Muslim country would prevent that. It counts as a very unfortunate life.
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Malcolm
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Re: Lama Ole Nydahl, what do you think?

Post by Malcolm »

adinatha wrote:But I would never live in a Muslim country. It would be impossible to be Buddhist there. One of the conditions of a precious human life is living in a place where Buddhism may be practiced. Living in a Muslim country would prevent that.

Exactly.
"Nonduality is merely a name;
that name does not exist."
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Re: Lama Ole Nydahl, what do you think?

Post by gnegirl »

A buddhist isn't even considered a 'dhimmi'.
"Things are not what they appear to be: nor are they otherwise." --Surangama Sutra

Phenomenon, vast as space, dharmata is your base, arising and falling like ocean tide cycles, why do i cling to your illusion of unceasing changlessness?
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ronnewmexico
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Re: Lama Ole Nydahl, what do you think?

Post by ronnewmexico »

Try being a nonchristian in the middle ages of Europe perhaps. When excommunication was a literal death sentence.
Know any polytheistic wars or segregations perhaps, killing for belief....anyone know a little indian history perhaps?
Tit for tat....

You're it.

To whit...a scholor....http://www.ahmadiyya.org/islam/tolerance.htm

of yes...Islam
"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.
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Re: Lama Ole Nydahl, what do you think?

Post by DGA »

Enochian wrote:LOL ronniemexico,

HOw come whenever they hold completely free elections in Muslim areas, 90% of the people freely vote for the EXTREMISTS?
Big claim. Prove it with some evidence or it's just online boasting.
Enochian wrote: If you leave Islam, you must be killed. This is actually a mainstream and common position among Muslims (excluding secularists).
Again, prove that this is a mainstream view with something concrete or you're just trolling.
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Re: Lama Ole Nydahl, what do you think?

Post by DGA »

The broader point vis a vis Nydahl's obsessive rantings on Islam and Muslims is that it's not really necessary and not really helpful in a broader sense. What use does it serve to incite hostile sentiment against a minority community? It may seem to Nydahl that he's doing himself some PR good, much as someone like Pamela Geller attempts to do (basically making a public career out of dogwhistling anti-Muslim feelings).

I just don't see the use in it. It seems irresponsible for Nydahl to push these buttons the way he does.
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Re: Lama Ole Nydahl, what do you think?

Post by Dechen Norbu »

Humm, it didn't went so well, did it Ron? ;)

We know Christianity was very problematic in the Middle Ages. We know it still has the potential to become problematic if some fundamentalists gain power. The hate speech is still there, for anyone crazy enough to use it. This is the actual situation with Islam. Some fundamentalists have loads of power and control entire countries. There you see people living in a reign of terror, some so deeply conditioned by doctrine that there are those who truly believe it's the best for them. If their wife cheats on them, they simply stone her to death. Great place to live in, I'm sure...

Those are the countries where people die if they decide to become Buddhists. Defending, even slightly, any doctrine (read carefully, I'm writing doctrine, not people) that kills Buddhadharma before such passages are removed from its books is not very meritorious, in my opinion.

Let Islamic leaders, the moderate ones obviously since the extremists would never do such a thing, remove all hate speech from their religion. Then we will talk about ecumenism. Let them show that they really mean it and remove those passages, condemning them publicly for the whole World to hear, especially because terrorists are using them right now: "We the Muslims community of X, renounce to all violent passages contained in our religious books, considering they couldn't be the speech of Allah!". Perfect demarcation.
If you ask the average Muslim, I think he would find that a great relief if such occurred. Those I know feel rather uncomfortable with those passages still being in there.

Don't let anyone of power inside the Islamic world who claims the tolerant nature of Islam find excuses to keep more than 400 passages inciting to violence in the Koran and the Hadith. Let them remove these passages of hatred. Then, we can really speak about ecumenism, because until that occurs, we never really know if or when when the tide will turn. Those passages being considered valid and tolerance are mutually exclusive, that simple. Don't let the seek cover behind warn theological arguments or obsolete ideas. If the Islam is to be taken as peaceful and tolerant, those passages must go away. They can't have both.

Of course this brings a problem in my personal opinion... if these passages aren't the message of Allah, that would make the Prophet either a schizophrenic or a liar. Immediately one question could be made: what more is in there that isn't Allah's message? And did the Prophet made up those that we ban? People died because of them, so this is not something we can simply brush aways as if was nothing important. However, by removing those passages the Koran couldn't be considered the message of Allah, could it? So, it's better to protect one's religion then admitting its real problems, although this has caused thousands of deaths. If that really is the message of Allah, constantly telling his followers to kill those who don't believe in him, geezzz, I think the big guy up there could use some psychotherapy. :lol: The fact is that it's all a tale, popular myths institutionalized by many reasons, because there's no Allah or any Christian all mighty God. Or do you believe there is? I think not. Fortunately enough, those anthropomorphic Gods are human inventions, thus have ascribed human flaws once seen as virtues in a specific context. Otherwise we would all be in deep shit. ;)

Were the tyrants who rule some Islamic countries allowed to rule the world and Dharma would vanish in a matter of few years. Remember the Buddha statues exploding in Afghanistan under the Taliban regime? People born in those countries don't have the slightest chance of ever practicing a path that leads them to enlightenment. This is serious shit, Ron. Samsara is not a great experience to be having for countless eons. Unless you think that the Islam can lead to Enlightenment, I don't get it.

The fact is that the more hate speech you find in a religious doctrine, the easier it will be to use it to achieve perfidious goals. Of course, I might as well restate that religion is not by far the only source of hate speech. Yet, one doesn't excuse the other.
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Re: Lama Ole Nydahl, what do you think?

Post by conebeckham »

Jikan wrote:
Enochian wrote:LOL ronniemexico,


If you leave Islam, you must be killed. This is actually a mainstream and common position among Muslims (excluding secularists).
Again, prove that this is a mainstream view with something concrete or you're just trolling.
Jikan, see my link in this thread, and Namdrol's, regarding Apostasy. I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say Wiki is about as "mainstream" as you're gonna find, and although there are a variety of positions on this issue expressed there, it's pretty much indicated that punishment, pretty much capital punishment, is the mainstream view.
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