In TB, is there a specific Pure Land we aim for (Sukhavati?) or you can aim for whatever you want?

Forum for discussion of Tibetan Buddhism. Questions specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: In TB, is there a specific Pure Land we aim for (Sukhavati?) or you can aim for whatever you want?

Post by Malcolm »

Zhen Li wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 4:21 am Birth in the lowest grade and lowest rank is rendered possible by one's own power, thinking of Amida even only ten times, including by those who committed the five grave offences.
This is definitely not considered adequate for birth in Sukhavati in the Tibetan tradition.

Buddhas cannot hand you liberation. All they can do is show you the path.
User avatar
Zhen Li
Posts: 2748
Joined: Sun Apr 07, 2013 8:15 am
Location: Tokyo
Contact:

Re: In TB, is there a specific Pure Land we aim for (Sukhavati?) or you can aim for whatever you want?

Post by Zhen Li »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 4:30 am
Zhen Li wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 4:21 am Birth in the lowest grade and lowest rank is rendered possible by one's own power, thinking of Amida even only ten times, including by those who committed the five grave offences.
This is definitely not considered adequate for birth in Sukhavati in the Tibetan tradition.

Buddhas cannot hand you liberation. All they can do is show you the path.
That's not being handed liberation, someone still has to do something. You'll still find a multiplicity of views in Tibetan temples. It all depends on who reads what.
discussionbuddhist
Posts: 25
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2016 9:56 am

Re: In TB, is there a specific Pure Land we aim for (Sukhavati?) or you can aim for whatever you want?

Post by discussionbuddhist »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 4:54 pm
Nalanda wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 11:43 pm In TB, is there a specific Pure Land we aim for (Sukhavati?) or you can aim for whatever you want?
Medicine Buddha's pure land (which you can take birth in if you recite the dhāraṇi of Medicine Buddha seven times every day),
Is the dharani Tadyatha Om Bhaishaye Bhaishaye Maha-Bhaishaye Raja Samudgate, Svaha?

Also, in which sutra does it say one gets rebirth in Medicine Buddha's pure land if one recites the dharani seven times everyday?
User avatar
climb-up
Posts: 1198
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2016 6:32 am

Re: In TB, is there a specific Pure Land we aim for (Sukhavati?) or you can aim for whatever you want?

Post by climb-up »

discussionbuddhist wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 7:18 am
Malcolm wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 4:54 pm
Nalanda wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 11:43 pm In TB, is there a specific Pure Land we aim for (Sukhavati?) or you can aim for whatever you want?
Medicine Buddha's pure land (which you can take birth in if you recite the dhāraṇi of Medicine Buddha seven times every day),
Is the dharani Tadyatha Om Bhaishaye Bhaishaye Maha-Bhaishaye Raja Samudgate, Svaha?

Also, in which sutra does it say one gets rebirth in Medicine Buddha's pure land if one recites the dharani seven times everyday?
The dharani starts “Namo Bhagavate Baishajye guru vairdurya…” etc. and ends with the mantra you quote.

The medicine Buddha sutra describes the PureLand, but I don’t recall the seven times a day. It does discuss quite a few benefits for the dharani and and meditating on medicine Buddha (basically everything you could want), so it might be one of the things discussed that o just don’t remember.
"Death's second name is 'omnipresent.' On the relative truth it seems we become separate. But on the absolute there is no separation." Lama Dawa
discussionbuddhist
Posts: 25
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2016 9:56 am

Re: In TB, is there a specific Pure Land we aim for (Sukhavati?) or you can aim for whatever you want?

Post by discussionbuddhist »

climb-up wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 7:35 am
discussionbuddhist wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 7:18 am
Malcolm wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 4:54 pm

Medicine Buddha's pure land (which you can take birth in if you recite the dhāraṇi of Medicine Buddha seven times every day),
Is the dharani Tadyatha Om Bhaishaye Bhaishaye Maha-Bhaishaye Raja Samudgate, Svaha?

Also, in which sutra does it say one gets rebirth in Medicine Buddha's pure land if one recites the dharani seven times everyday?
The dharani starts “Namo Bhagavate Baishajye guru vairdurya…” etc. and ends with the mantra you quote.

The medicine Buddha sutra describes the PureLand, but I don’t recall the seven times a day. It does discuss quite a few benefits for the dharani and and meditating on medicine Buddha (basically everything you could want), so it might be one of the things discussed that o just don’t remember.
Me neither, I don't recall the seven times a day in the Medicine Buddha Sutra which is why I wanted to ask Malcolm if there are any references to the teaching.
User avatar
climb-up
Posts: 1198
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2016 6:32 am

Re: In TB, is there a specific Pure Land we aim for (Sukhavati?) or you can aim for whatever you want?

Post by climb-up »

discussionbuddhist wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 7:58 am

Me neither, I don't recall the seven times a day in the Medicine Buddha Sutra which is why I wanted to ask Malcolm if there are any references to the teaching.
Oh, I see, now I’m interested too.
On quick perusal I didn’t see it, only that having faith and hearing the name of medicine Buddha can bring one to his PureLand. Lama Zopa Rinpoche discusses the a medicine Buddha phowa and using the dharani for people and animals who have died, to send them to medicine Buddhas PureLand, but no discussion of a daily requirement (quite the opposite in fact, or so it seemed).
"Death's second name is 'omnipresent.' On the relative truth it seems we become separate. But on the absolute there is no separation." Lama Dawa
discussionbuddhist
Posts: 25
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2016 9:56 am

Re: In TB, is there a specific Pure Land we aim for (Sukhavati?) or you can aim for whatever you want?

Post by discussionbuddhist »

climb-up wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 8:33 am
discussionbuddhist wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 7:58 am

Me neither, I don't recall the seven times a day in the Medicine Buddha Sutra which is why I wanted to ask Malcolm if there are any references to the teaching.
Oh, I see, now I’m interested too.
On quick perusal I didn’t see it, only that having faith and hearing the name of medicine Buddha can bring one to his PureLand. Lama Zopa Rinpoche discusses the a medicine Buddha phowa and using the dharani for people and animals who have died, to send them to medicine Buddhas PureLand, but no discussion of a daily requirement (quite the opposite in fact, or so it seemed).
There's such a thing as Medicine Buddha phowa?
Shinjin
Posts: 399
Joined: Fri Dec 17, 2021 2:44 pm

Re: In TB, is there a specific Pure Land we aim for (Sukhavati?) or you can aim for whatever you want?

Post by Shinjin »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 4:30 am
Zhen Li wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 4:21 am Birth in the lowest grade and lowest rank is rendered possible by one's own power, thinking of Amida even only ten times, including by those who committed the five grave offences.
This is definitely not considered adequate for birth in Sukhavati in the Tibetan tradition.

Buddhas cannot hand you liberation. All they can do is show you the path.
The lowest of the low have to sit in lotus buds for aeons before it opens up. The highest of the high (those with Shinjin) attain instantaneous Buddhahood upon birth according to the Pure Land sutras.

Are the four requirments that Karma Chakme talks about based out of the Pure Land sutras or is it only his opinion?
User avatar
Konchog Thogme Jampa
Posts: 1175
Joined: Sun Oct 01, 2017 4:48 am
Location: Saha World/Hard to Take

Re: In TB, is there a specific Pure Land we aim for (Sukhavati?) or you can aim for whatever you want?

Post by Konchog Thogme Jampa »

Zhen Li wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 3:24 am
Nalanda wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 3:06 am
Malcolm wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 1:27 am

Well,that’s the point. It’s not.
It's not?

The idea is you end up there and your enlightenment is guaranteed. Isn't this a universal understanding?
Yes, the point he's making is that getting assured of birth there is difficult.

Actually, this is accepted in Japanese Pure Land as well. It's said "going there is easy and yet no one is born."

If you're interested in this, maybe start a thread in the Pure Land forum on why the Larger Sūtra says it is the "most difficult of all difficulties" to gain faith in its teachings.

As for TB, people practice all their lives to accumulate merit and realisations, and yet, at the end of the day, they rely on Amitābha to gain birth and attain actual buddhahood. Practitioners of high spiritual capacity, like Malcolm, may not need to have that reliance. But you should be true to yourself and evaluate what you feel is possible for you in this life. Remember: Buddhahood or bust. If you are just messing around reciting things and ringing bells but not improving on a day to day level and moving towards Buddhahood, then the method isn't working. Find what works for you and stick with it. You are asking lots of questions of people from different traditions on a daily basis here, but at a certain point, you need to settle down and focus.
You definitely need a teacher to transmit Faith in Amitabha. That means a teacher who has already settled Faith. This is known as Faith Transmission in Jodo Shinshu.

This is a point lost here as I’m the only one who mentions it.

I’m more interested in actual experience that’s what I trained in where I practiced in London not long expositions and citations from books. It’s a lived experience an actual relationship in the case of Jodo Shinshu
Shinjin
Posts: 399
Joined: Fri Dec 17, 2021 2:44 pm

Re: In TB, is there a specific Pure Land we aim for (Sukhavati?) or you can aim for whatever you want?

Post by Shinjin »

Zhen Li wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 3:24 am
Nalanda wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 3:06 am
Malcolm wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 1:27 am

Well,that’s the point. It’s not.
It's not?

The idea is you end up there and your enlightenment is guaranteed. Isn't this a universal understanding?
Yes, the point he's making is that getting assured of birth there is difficult.

Actually, this is accepted in Japanese Pure Land as well. It's said "going there is easy and yet no one is born."

If you're interested in this, maybe start a thread in the Pure Land forum on why the Larger Sūtra says it is the "most difficult of all difficulties" to gain faith in its teachings.

As for TB, people practice all their lives to accumulate merit and realisations, and yet, at the end of the day, they rely on Amitābha to gain birth and attain actual buddhahood. Practitioners of high spiritual capacity, like Malcolm, may not need to have that reliance. But you should be true to yourself and evaluate what you feel is possible for you in this life. Remember: Buddhahood or bust. If you are just messing around reciting things and ringing bells but not improving on a day to day level and moving towards Buddhahood, then the method isn't working. Find what works for you and stick with it. You are asking lots of questions of people from different traditions on a daily basis here, but at a certain point, you need to settle down and focus.
Straight talk. Nice :good:
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: In TB, is there a specific Pure Land we aim for (Sukhavati?) or you can aim for whatever you want?

Post by Malcolm »

Shinjin wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 5:23 pm Are the four requirments that Karma Chakme talks about based out of the Pure Land sutras or is it only his opinion?
It is based on a passage from Ārya Amitābhavyūha Sūtra:

Ānanda, any sentient beings who repeatedly thinks of the aspects of that tathāgata, generates immeasurable quantities of roots of merit, totally dedicates themselves to generating the thought to awaken (bodhicitta), and offers supplications to be born in that world, when the time of death draws near will see before them the Tathāgatam Arhat, Samyaksambuddha Amitābha surrounded by many groups of bhikṣus. Upon seeing Bhagāvan Amitābha, they will die with a mind of utter faith, and be born in that world, Sukhavati."

Karma Chakme's prayer is structured around these four points from the sūtra. His aspiration is a supplement to the Sadhana practice of Amitabha found in the Sky Treasure (Nam chos) tradition, which is widely practiced in both Nyingma and Kagyu, but not really in Sakya or Geluk.

There is a shorter aspiration, set down by Namcho Migyur Dorje:

༄༅། །སྨོན་ལམ་བསྡུས་པ་བཞུགས།
Brief Sukhāvatī Aspiration

from the terma of Mingyur Dorje


ཨེ་མ་ཧོ༔ ངོ་མཚར་སངས་རྒྱས་སྣང་བ་མཐའ་ཡས་དང་༔
emaho, ngotsar sangye nangwa tayé dang
Emaho! Amitābha, magnificent Buddha of Boundless Light,

གཡས་སུ་ཇོ་བོ་ཐུགས་རྗེ་ཆེན་པོ་དང་༔
yé su jowo tukjé chenpo dang
With the great compassionate lord Avalokiteśvara to his right,

གཡོན་དུ་སེམས་དཔའ་མཐུ་ཆེན་ཐོབ་རྣམས་ལ༔
yöndu sempa tuchen tob nam la
And Vajrapāṇi-Mahāsthāmaprāpta on his left,

སངས་རྒྱས་བྱང་སེམས་དཔག་མེད་འཁོར་གྱིས་བསྐོར༔
sangye changsem pakmé khor gyi kor
Surrounded by an assembly of countless buddhas and bodhisattvas

བདེ་སྐྱིད་ངོ་མཚར་དཔག་ཏུ་མེད་པ་ཡི༔
dekyi ngotsar paktu mepa yi
In the place of wonder and boundless joy and happiness

བདེ་བ་ཅན་ཞེས་བྱ་བའི་ཞིང་ཁམས་དེར༔
dewachen shyejawé shyingkham der
That is the heavenly realm of Sukhāvatī, the Blissful Paradise.

བདག་ནི་འདི་ནས་ཚེ་འཕོས་གྱུར་མ་ཐག༔
dak ni di né tsé pö gyur ma tak
When the time comes for me to leave this present life,

སྐྱེ་བ་གཞན་གྱིས་བར་མ་ཆོད་པ་རུ༔
kyewa shyen gyi bar ma chöpa ru
May I go there directly, without any other birth upon the way,

དེ་རུ་སྐྱེས་ནས་སྣང་མཐའི་ཞལ་མཐོང་ཤོག༔
dé ru kyé né nang té shyal tong shok
And being reborn there, may I see Amitābha face to face!

དེ་སྐད་བདག་གིས་སྨོན་ལམ་བཏབ་པ་འདི༔
deké dak gi mönlam tabpa di
May this, my fervent prayer of aspiration,

ཕྱོགས་བཅུའི་སངས་རྒྱས་བྱང་སེམས་ཐམས་ཅད་ཀྱིས༔
chok chü sangye changsem tamché kyi
Be blessed by all the buddhas and bodhisattvas of the ten directions

གེགས་མེད་འགྲུབ་པར་བྱིན་གྱིས་བརླབ་ཏུ་གསོལ༔
gekmé drubpar jingyi lab tu sol
So that it is accomplished, without the slightest hindrance!

ཏདྱ་ཐཱ༔ པཉྩ་ནྡྲི་ཡ་ཨཱ་ཝ་བོ་དྷ་ནཱ་ཡེ་སྭཱ་ཧཱ༔
teyatha | pentsadriya awabodhanayé soha
tadyathā pañcendriyāvabodhanīye svāhā

ཞེས་པ་འདི་ནི་སྤྲུལ་སྐུ་མི་འགྱུར་རྡོ་རྗེ་དགུང་ལོ་བཅུ་གསུམ་གསེར་འཕྱང་གི་ལོ་ས་ག་ཟླ་བའི་ཚེས་བདུན་ལ་གཙོ་འཁོར་རྣམས་ཀྱིས་ཞལ་གཟིགས་པའི་ཚེ་སངས་རྒྱས་སྣང་བ་མཐའ་ཡས་ཀྱིས་དངོས་སུ་གསུངས་པའོ།། །།
When Tulku Mingyur Dorje was thirteen years old, on the 7th day of the month of Saga Dawa, Fire Bird year (1657), he had a vision of the deities of the maṇḍala, and Buddha Amitābha spoke these words directly.

https://www.lotsawahouse.org/tibetan-ma ... aspiration
User avatar
climb-up
Posts: 1198
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2016 6:32 am

Re: In TB, is there a specific Pure Land we aim for (Sukhavati?) or you can aim for whatever you want?

Post by climb-up »

discussionbuddhist wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 1:19 pm
climb-up wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 8:33 am
discussionbuddhist wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 7:58 am

Me neither, I don't recall the seven times a day in the Medicine Buddha Sutra which is why I wanted to ask Malcolm if there are any references to the teaching.
Oh, I see, now I’m interested too.
On quick perusal I didn’t see it, only that having faith and hearing the name of medicine Buddha can bring one to his PureLand. Lama Zopa Rinpoche discusses the a medicine Buddha phowa and using the dharani for people and animals who have died, to send them to medicine Buddhas PureLand, but no discussion of a daily requirement (quite the opposite in fact, or so it seemed).
There's such a thing as Medicine Buddha phowa?
Lama Zopa Rinpoche describes what he calls medicine Buddha phowa in “Ultimate Healing.”
He does not describe the yogic practice for yourself, as you generally start learning phowa, but how to practice it for a dying person; but it’s more or less the standard nirmanakaya phowa practice, but visualizing medicine Buddha instead of Amitabha, and also using phowa pills or relics if available
He also says that reciting the medicine Buddha mantra over dead bodies or bones, such as meat or even bones of long dead people or animals, with strong intention can transfer their consciousness even from the lower realms to the medicine Buddha PureLand.

In terms of the latter, I would assume it would have to do with both your faith and having already spent a lot of time with the mantra, but he doesn’t say that.
For the phowa it’s a little interesting because I was taught that if you don’t practice and manifest the signs of accomplishment first that it is pointless to do phowa for someone else …maybe there are different opinions? 🤷🏻‍♂️
"Death's second name is 'omnipresent.' On the relative truth it seems we become separate. But on the absolute there is no separation." Lama Dawa
Shinjin
Posts: 399
Joined: Fri Dec 17, 2021 2:44 pm

Re: In TB, is there a specific Pure Land we aim for (Sukhavati?) or you can aim for whatever you want?

Post by Shinjin »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 6:28 pm
Shinjin wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 5:23 pm Are the four requirments that Karma Chakme talks about based out of the Pure Land sutras or is it only his opinion?
It is based on a passage from Ārya Amitābhavyūha Sūtra:

Ānanda, any sentient beings who repeatedly thinks of the aspects of that tathāgata, generates immeasurable quantities of roots of merit, totally dedicates themselves to generating the thought to awaken (bodhicitta), and offers supplications to be born in that world, when the time of death draws near will see before them the Tathāgatam Arhat, Samyaksambuddha Amitābha surrounded by many groups of bhikṣus. Upon seeing Bhagāvan Amitābha, they will die with a mind of utter faith, and be born in that world, Sukhavati."
Thank you, but the Larger Sutra states:

(3. The lower grade)

[25] The Buddha said to Ananda, "The lower grade of aspirants are the devas and humans in the worlds of the ten quarters who sincerely desire to be born in that land. Although unable to do many meritorious deeds, they awaken aspiration for the highest Enlightenment and single-mindedly concentrate on Amitayus even ten times, desiring birth in his land. When they hear the profound Dharma, they joyfully accept it and do not entertain any doubt; and so, remembering the Buddha even once, they sincerely aspire to be born in that land. When they are about to die, they will see the Buddha in a dream. Those aspirants, too, will be born in the Pure Land. Their merit and wisdom will be next to those of the middle grade of aspirants."
http://web.mit.edu/stclair/www/larger.h ... 0aspirants

Nowhere does it mention the four requirements here.
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: In TB, is there a specific Pure Land we aim for (Sukhavati?) or you can aim for whatever you want?

Post by Malcolm »

Shinjin wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 6:55 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 6:28 pm
Shinjin wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 5:23 pm Are the four requirments that Karma Chakme talks about based out of the Pure Land sutras or is it only his opinion?
It is based on a passage from Ārya Amitābhavyūha Sūtra:

Ānanda, any sentient beings who repeatedly thinks of the aspects of that tathāgata, generates immeasurable quantities of roots of merit, totally dedicates themselves to generating the thought to awaken (bodhicitta), and offers supplications to be born in that world, when the time of death draws near will see before them the Tathāgatam Arhat, Samyaksambuddha Amitābha surrounded by many groups of bhikṣus. Upon seeing Bhagāvan Amitābha, they will die with a mind of utter faith, and be born in that world, Sukhavati."
Thank you, but the Larger Sutra states:

(3. The lower grade)

[25] The Buddha said to Ananda, "The lower grade of aspirants are the devas and humans in the worlds of the ten quarters who sincerely desire to be born in that land. Although unable to do many meritorious deeds, they awaken aspiration for the highest Enlightenment and single-mindedly concentrate on Amitayus even ten times, desiring birth in his land. When they hear the profound Dharma, they joyfully accept it and do not entertain any doubt; and so, remembering the Buddha even once, they sincerely aspire to be born in that land. When they are about to die, they will see the Buddha in a dream. Those aspirants, too, will be born in the Pure Land. Their merit and wisdom will be next to those of the middle grade of aspirants."
http://web.mit.edu/stclair/www/larger.h ... 0aspirants

Nowhere does it mention the four requirements here.

What I quoted from is the so-called Large Sūtra, it is the passage immediately before this one above. The Sanskrit and Tibetan text certainly mentions these four requirementsfor those who see Amitabha before them in person. For whatever reason, in the Tibetan tradition, seeing Amitabha in a dream is not sufficient for immediate birth, only those of the first and second grade will do so.

Because the second grade also generate (1) bodhicitta, (2) the altruistic thought to attain birth there, (3) much merit, and (4) direct their minds to Sukhavati, when they approach death, an emanation of Amitabha and his retinue appear to that person and as soon as they die, they will take birth in Sukhavati.

No such stated guarantee is made for people who merely see Amitabha in dream. In its Sanskrit and Tibetan version there is no statement in the Long Sūtra that as soon as those person's die they will be born in Sukhavati. It merely says they will be born there without specifying a time frame.

Thus, there is a difference in the textual tradition which underlies a difference in understanding the requirements for birth in Sukhavati. Thus, as I said, it is not so easy to take birth in Sukhavati from the Tibetan tradition's point of view. For this reason there is a sadhana practice of Amitabha with the mantra.

Generally, in the Tibetan tradition, we focus on the longevity-providing aspect of Amitabha, Amitayuḥ.
User avatar
climb-up
Posts: 1198
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2016 6:32 am

Re: In TB, is there a specific Pure Land we aim for (Sukhavati?) or you can aim for whatever you want?

Post by climb-up »

discussionbuddhist wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 1:19 pm
climb-up wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 8:33 am
discussionbuddhist wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 7:58 am

Me neither, I don't recall the seven times a day in the Medicine Buddha Sutra which is why I wanted to ask Malcolm if there are any references to the teaching.
Oh, I see, now I’m interested too.
On quick perusal I didn’t see it, only that having faith and hearing the name of medicine Buddha can bring one to his PureLand. Lama Zopa Rinpoche discusses the a medicine Buddha phowa and using the dharani for people and animals who have died, to send them to medicine Buddhas PureLand, but no discussion of a daily requirement (quite the opposite in fact, or so it seemed).
There's such a thing as Medicine Buddha phowa?
I was going to add this to my response above, but I can't edit the post.
There is also a phowa taught in the yuthok nyinghig for merging with yuthok and rebirth in tanaduk; it's the more standard process where you do a week+ long retreat until you gain signs and then afterward you can do phowa for others.
"Death's second name is 'omnipresent.' On the relative truth it seems we become separate. But on the absolute there is no separation." Lama Dawa
User avatar
Zhen Li
Posts: 2748
Joined: Sun Apr 07, 2013 8:15 am
Location: Tokyo
Contact:

Re: In TB, is there a specific Pure Land we aim for (Sukhavati?) or you can aim for whatever you want?

Post by Zhen Li »

Konchog Thogme Jampa wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 5:38 pm
Zhen Li wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 3:24 am
Nalanda wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 3:06 am

It's not?

The idea is you end up there and your enlightenment is guaranteed. Isn't this a universal understanding?
Yes, the point he's making is that getting assured of birth there is difficult.

Actually, this is accepted in Japanese Pure Land as well. It's said "going there is easy and yet no one is born."

If you're interested in this, maybe start a thread in the Pure Land forum on why the Larger Sūtra says it is the "most difficult of all difficulties" to gain faith in its teachings.

As for TB, people practice all their lives to accumulate merit and realisations, and yet, at the end of the day, they rely on Amitābha to gain birth and attain actual buddhahood. Practitioners of high spiritual capacity, like Malcolm, may not need to have that reliance. But you should be true to yourself and evaluate what you feel is possible for you in this life. Remember: Buddhahood or bust. If you are just messing around reciting things and ringing bells but not improving on a day to day level and moving towards Buddhahood, then the method isn't working. Find what works for you and stick with it. You are asking lots of questions of people from different traditions on a daily basis here, but at a certain point, you need to settle down and focus.
You definitely need a teacher to transmit Faith in Amitabha. That means a teacher who has already settled Faith. This is known as Faith Transmission in Jodo Shinshu.

This is a point lost here as I’m the only one who mentions it.

I’m more interested in actual experience that’s what I trained in where I practiced in London not long expositions and citations from books. It’s a lived experience an actual relationship in the case of Jodo Shinshu
This is also an interesting topic and maybe it's worth a separate thread. But I have been taught a few times that we can take Master Shinran or Rennyō as our teacher. There's actually not the specification that the teacher needs to be alive or present before us. Hōnen, for instance, relied on Shandao's writings to gain Shinjin but did not himself meet Shandao.

Rennyō said, for instance, that if someone lacks faith, let them listen to the scriptures of our tradition (i.e. KGSS) repeatedly, up to a hundred times. If they don't have Shinjin after that, then they lack the karmic roots.

I am also reminded of the Ryogemon: How grateful I am that I have come to this understanding through the benevolence of our founder, Shinran Shonin, and of the masters of the succeeding generations.

So, even if we come to an understanding through someone else, they are, in a way, channelling Shinran. I always notice that teachers who have the signs of Shinjin can speak as if Shinran is right there.

To bring it back to TB, I don't know so much about the simple sadhāna practice, but I practised phowa in the Kagyu tradition. Of course the teacher's instruction is essential in such a situation. As for faith itself, I am not sure how they conceive of it.

As for "faith transmission," even in Jōdo Shinshū, I have not heard of this word. Shinran said, of course, his faith is the same as that of Hōnen's. He didn't get it from Hōnen though, his writings make clear that everybody gets it only from Amida. So, the kind of transmission lineages you find in Zen (which are essentially rubber stampings) really wouldn't mean much in Jōdo Shinshū. You either get it or you don't, and there are plenty of people in Jōdo Shinshū who don't get it or have only a superficial understanding.
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: In TB, is there a specific Pure Land we aim for (Sukhavati?) or you can aim for whatever you want?

Post by Malcolm »

Zhen Li wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 3:38 am This is also an interesting topic and maybe it's worth a separate thread. But I have been taught a few times that we can take Master Shinran or Rennyō as our teacher. There's actually not the specification that the teacher needs to be alive or present before us. Hōnen, for instance, relied on Shandao's writings to gain Shinjin but did not himself meet Shandao.

Rennyō said, for instance, that if someone lacks faith, let them listen to the scriptures of our tradition (i.e. KGSS) repeatedly, up to a hundred times. If they don't have Shinjin after that, then they lack the karmic roots.
This is definitely a difference between common Mahayana on the one hand, and Vajrayana as well as Zen on the other. Dogen, for example, makes it absolutely clear that real Zen lies in the interaction between teacher and student.
User avatar
Zhen Li
Posts: 2748
Joined: Sun Apr 07, 2013 8:15 am
Location: Tokyo
Contact:

Re: In TB, is there a specific Pure Land we aim for (Sukhavati?) or you can aim for whatever you want?

Post by Zhen Li »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 3:44 am
Zhen Li wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 3:38 am This is also an interesting topic and maybe it's worth a separate thread. But I have been taught a few times that we can take Master Shinran or Rennyō as our teacher. There's actually not the specification that the teacher needs to be alive or present before us. Hōnen, for instance, relied on Shandao's writings to gain Shinjin but did not himself meet Shandao.

Rennyō said, for instance, that if someone lacks faith, let them listen to the scriptures of our tradition (i.e. KGSS) repeatedly, up to a hundred times. If they don't have Shinjin after that, then they lack the karmic roots.
This is definitely a difference between common Mahayana on the one hand, and Vajrayana as well as Zen on the other. Dogen, for example, makes it absolutely clear that real Zen lies in the interaction between teacher and student.
I am not saying that there is no interaction between teacher and student. Just that we ultimately rely directly on the Buddha as a teacher. As Shinran writes:
It appears that disputes have arisen among followers of the sole practice of nembutsu, who argue that "these are my disciples" or "those are someone else's disciples." This is utterly senseless.

For myself, I do not have even a single disciple. For if I brought people to say the nembutsu through my own efforts, then they might be my disciples. But it is indeed preposterous to call persons "my disciples" when they say the nembutsu having received the working of Amida.
We can take humans or Shinran as an intermediary teacher. But even TB takes refuge in the Buddha before the Guru.

If we have to spend our whole lives waiting for someone with Shinjin to come along, when we could spend the time studying the teachings directly with the master via a book or the internet, then we are wasting our time. But if we do happen to encounter that teacher in the flesh, then we are endowed with great karmic roots that should not be dismissed as insignificant.
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: In TB, is there a specific Pure Land we aim for (Sukhavati?) or you can aim for whatever you want?

Post by Malcolm »

Zhen Li wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 4:34 am I am not saying that there is no interaction between teacher and student. Just that we ultimately rely directly on the Buddha as a teacher.
Of course there are virtuous friends in common Mahayāna, but it’s just not same relationship as one has with one’s teacher in Vajrayana and Zen.
But even TB takes refuge in the Buddha before the Guru.
No, actually the Guru jewel comes first. This is ubiquitous in TB.
User avatar
Zhen Li
Posts: 2748
Joined: Sun Apr 07, 2013 8:15 am
Location: Tokyo
Contact:

Re: In TB, is there a specific Pure Land we aim for (Sukhavati?) or you can aim for whatever you want?

Post by Zhen Li »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 4:39 am
Zhen Li wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 4:34 am I am not saying that there is no interaction between teacher and student. Just that we ultimately rely directly on the Buddha as a teacher.
Of course there are virtuous friends in common Mahayāna, but it’s just not same relationship as one has with one’s teacher in Vajrayana and Zen.
But even TB takes refuge in the Buddha before the Guru.
No, actually the Guru jewel comes first. This is ubiquitous in TB.
There you go. This is why TB doesn't work for everyone, it depends a lot on karmic connections. Actually, the same is true with Pure Land. It's not the practitioner who chooses the practice but the practice that chooses the practitioner.
Post Reply

Return to “Tibetan Buddhism”