Refuge as a pre-requisite for lung
- ManiThePainter
- Posts: 181
- Joined: Tue Feb 04, 2020 3:04 pm
Refuge as a pre-requisite for lung
Is going for refuge a pre-requisite for receiving the lung of a text?
"Don't mind me, just trying to find the nearest exit"
- someone stuck in Samsara... or maybe lost in Walmart
- someone stuck in Samsara... or maybe lost in Walmart
Re: Refuge as a pre-requisite for lung
Do you really have to ask? Without going for Refuge, you aren't a Buddhist. You don't have to have a formal ceremony, but you have to say the words. And mean them.
Re: Refuge as a pre-requisite for lung
The vast majority of practices you do (in the Tibetan traditions at least) start with some form of refuge. So I’m not sure how one could actually practice in this tradition without saying the words.
Though technically speaking, I received lungs for a couple of practices before I had said the refuge vows in any Tibetan tradition. I happen to have taken refuge in a different tradition previously, but the lama would not have known that. And this was as part of a major, regular teaching event by a high-profile lama. So sure, it’s possible. But I can’t imagine one actually *practising* without taking refuge.
Though technically speaking, I received lungs for a couple of practices before I had said the refuge vows in any Tibetan tradition. I happen to have taken refuge in a different tradition previously, but the lama would not have known that. And this was as part of a major, regular teaching event by a high-profile lama. So sure, it’s possible. But I can’t imagine one actually *practising* without taking refuge.
Re: Refuge as a pre-requisite for lung
Refuge isn't just words. It certainly doesn't need vocalization.PeterC wrote: ↑Sun Jan 23, 2022 4:28 am The vast majority of practices you do (in the Tibetan traditions at least) start with some form of refuge. So I’m not sure how one could actually practice in this tradition without saying the words.
Though technically speaking, I received lungs for a couple of practices before I had said the refuge vows in any Tibetan tradition. I happen to have taken refuge in a different tradition previously, but the lama would not have known that. And this was as part of a major, regular teaching event by a high-profile lama. So sure, it’s possible. But I can’t imagine one actually *practising* without taking refuge.
Re: Refuge as a pre-requisite for lung
Yet every ceremony bestowing refuge vows involves words, as does that part of every sadhana. So saying words clearly isn’t unimportantn8pee wrote: ↑Sun Jan 23, 2022 4:55 amRefuge isn't just words. It certainly doesn't need vocalization.PeterC wrote: ↑Sun Jan 23, 2022 4:28 am The vast majority of practices you do (in the Tibetan traditions at least) start with some form of refuge. So I’m not sure how one could actually practice in this tradition without saying the words.
Though technically speaking, I received lungs for a couple of practices before I had said the refuge vows in any Tibetan tradition. I happen to have taken refuge in a different tradition previously, but the lama would not have known that. And this was as part of a major, regular teaching event by a high-profile lama. So sure, it’s possible. But I can’t imagine one actually *practising* without taking refuge.
- ManiThePainter
- Posts: 181
- Joined: Tue Feb 04, 2020 3:04 pm
Re: Refuge as a pre-requisite for lung
Quite a few different views on this it seems.
From my own basic knowledge I’d assume that practice necessitated refuge.
But is receiving a lung a practice?
From my own basic knowledge I’d assume that practice necessitated refuge.
But is receiving a lung a practice?
"Don't mind me, just trying to find the nearest exit"
- someone stuck in Samsara... or maybe lost in Walmart
- someone stuck in Samsara... or maybe lost in Walmart
Re: Refuge as a pre-requisite for lung
As stated above, one can receive lungs from respected major lamas without saying a word of refuge. If it were needed to receive the lung they would not give them so readilyManiThePainter wrote: ↑Sun Jan 23, 2022 5:38 am Quite a few different views on this it seems.
From my own basic knowledge I’d assume that practice necessitated refuge.
But is receiving a lung a practice?
- ManiThePainter
- Posts: 181
- Joined: Tue Feb 04, 2020 3:04 pm
Re: Refuge as a pre-requisite for lung
Thank you.
"Don't mind me, just trying to find the nearest exit"
- someone stuck in Samsara... or maybe lost in Walmart
- someone stuck in Samsara... or maybe lost in Walmart
Re: Refuge as a pre-requisite for lung
For a practitioner it is a practice, part of the three wisdoms.ManiThePainter wrote: ↑Sun Jan 23, 2022 5:38 am Quite a few different views on this it seems.
From my own basic knowledge I’d assume that practice necessitated refuge.
But is receiving a lung a practice?
- ManiThePainter
- Posts: 181
- Joined: Tue Feb 04, 2020 3:04 pm
Re: Refuge as a pre-requisite for lung
Noted.Malcolm wrote: ↑Sun Jan 23, 2022 1:53 pmFor a practitioner it is a practice, part of the three wisdoms.ManiThePainter wrote: ↑Sun Jan 23, 2022 5:38 am Quite a few different views on this it seems.
From my own basic knowledge I’d assume that practice necessitated refuge.
But is receiving a lung a practice?
"Don't mind me, just trying to find the nearest exit"
- someone stuck in Samsara... or maybe lost in Walmart
- someone stuck in Samsara... or maybe lost in Walmart
Re: Refuge as a pre-requisite for lung
I'm not Catholic so I don't take Communion. My parents tried, but it didn't take. I don't know about other religions. Why would someone want to be involved with someone else's religion without actually joining it?
Re: Refuge as a pre-requisite for lung
The Buddha never said to anyone, “Before you sit and listen to me, you must go for refuge to me.” However, very often at the end of a discourse, people, impressed by his words, then went to refuge in the Three Jewels.
- ManiThePainter
- Posts: 181
- Joined: Tue Feb 04, 2020 3:04 pm
Re: Refuge as a pre-requisite for lung
Nobody here is saying anything about never taking refuge.
Since I’m planning on taking an online lung within a couple of months but might be unable to take formal refuge (I would like to do so in person at a temple or with a sangha and to take vows) due to the current coronavirus strain, I was merely wondering if it was pointless to receive the lung if I hadn’t already gone for refuge.
"Don't mind me, just trying to find the nearest exit"
- someone stuck in Samsara... or maybe lost in Walmart
- someone stuck in Samsara... or maybe lost in Walmart
Re: Refuge as a pre-requisite for lung
You can take refuge anywhere, at any time. If you feel a little formality would be desirable, look into Garchen R’s ‘refuge at a distance’ arrangement.ManiThePainter wrote: ↑Mon Jan 24, 2022 4:44 pmNobody here is saying anything about never taking refuge.
Since I’m planning on taking an online lung within a couple of months but might be unable to take formal refuge (I would like to do so in person at a temple or with a sangha and to take vows) due to the current coronavirus strain, I was merely wondering if it was pointless to receive the lung if I hadn’t already gone for refuge.
- ManiThePainter
- Posts: 181
- Joined: Tue Feb 04, 2020 3:04 pm
Re: Refuge as a pre-requisite for lung
Thanks PeterC. I thought I had read somewhere that one had to go for refuge and take vows in person (one could say it by oneself but it would not be the same). Clearly I was misinformed.PeterC wrote: ↑Mon Jan 24, 2022 5:10 pmYou can take refuge anywhere, at any time. If you feel a little formality would be desirable, look into Garchen R’s ‘refuge at a distance’ arrangement.ManiThePainter wrote: ↑Mon Jan 24, 2022 4:44 pmNobody here is saying anything about never taking refuge.
Since I’m planning on taking an online lung within a couple of months but might be unable to take formal refuge (I would like to do so in person at a temple or with a sangha and to take vows) due to the current coronavirus strain, I was merely wondering if it was pointless to receive the lung if I hadn’t already gone for refuge.
"Don't mind me, just trying to find the nearest exit"
- someone stuck in Samsara... or maybe lost in Walmart
- someone stuck in Samsara... or maybe lost in Walmart
Re: Refuge as a pre-requisite for lung
Mahayāna refuge can be taken by visualizing the Buddhas and bodhisattvas in front of you and reciting refuge formula. You do not need a preceptor. This system is clearly taught in the Mahāyāna sūtra. However, you should not let other people's religious trips make you anxious.ManiThePainter wrote: ↑Mon Jan 24, 2022 5:31 pmThanks PeterC. I thought I had read somewhere that one had to go for refuge and take vows in person (one could say it by oneself but it would not be the same). Clearly I was misinformed.PeterC wrote: ↑Mon Jan 24, 2022 5:10 pmYou can take refuge anywhere, at any time. If you feel a little formality would be desirable, look into Garchen R’s ‘refuge at a distance’ arrangement.ManiThePainter wrote: ↑Mon Jan 24, 2022 4:44 pm
Nobody here is saying anything about never taking refuge.
Since I’m planning on taking an online lung within a couple of months but might be unable to take formal refuge (I would like to do so in person at a temple or with a sangha and to take vows) due to the current coronavirus strain, I was merely wondering if it was pointless to receive the lung if I hadn’t already gone for refuge.
- ManiThePainter
- Posts: 181
- Joined: Tue Feb 04, 2020 3:04 pm
Re: Refuge as a pre-requisite for lung
Thanks. I appreciate the help.Malcolm wrote: ↑Mon Jan 24, 2022 6:03 pmMahayāna refuge can be taken by visualizing the Buddhas and bodhisattvas in front of you and reciting refuge formula. You do not need a preceptor. This system is clearly taught in the Mahāyāna sūtra. However, you should not let other people's religious trips make you anxious.ManiThePainter wrote: ↑Mon Jan 24, 2022 5:31 pmThanks PeterC. I thought I had read somewhere that one had to go for refuge and take vows in person (one could say it by oneself but it would not be the same). Clearly I was misinformed.
So the cutting of hair as part of the refuge ceremony is just a formality?
"Don't mind me, just trying to find the nearest exit"
- someone stuck in Samsara... or maybe lost in Walmart
- someone stuck in Samsara... or maybe lost in Walmart
Re: Refuge as a pre-requisite for lung
Yes, it is a formality. You never read in the sutras where someone cuts hair just for going for refuge. All ordination rites are later developments. None of them come from the Buddha himself.ManiThePainter wrote: ↑Mon Jan 24, 2022 6:09 pmThanks. I appreciate the help.Malcolm wrote: ↑Mon Jan 24, 2022 6:03 pmMahayāna refuge can be taken by visualizing the Buddhas and bodhisattvas in front of you and reciting refuge formula. You do not need a preceptor. This system is clearly taught in the Mahāyāna sūtra. However, you should not let other people's religious trips make you anxious.ManiThePainter wrote: ↑Mon Jan 24, 2022 5:31 pm
Thanks PeterC. I thought I had read somewhere that one had to go for refuge and take vows in person (one could say it by oneself but it would not be the same). Clearly I was misinformed.
So the cutting of hair as part of the refuge ceremony is just a formality?
Re: Refuge as a pre-requisite for lung
The first time I read The Four Noble Truths I knew I was a Buddhist. My parents didn't approve. Other people told me I had to be Asian. When you know you are, it doesn't matter what anyone says.ManiThePainter wrote: ↑Mon Jan 24, 2022 4:44 pm planning on taking an online lung within a couple of months but might be unable to take formal refuge