Emptiness as negation

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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Emptiness as negation

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

cyril wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 11:51 pm Maybe I am being mistaken but I think what Sion was implying here is that one cannot perceive an absence without making recourse to an act of reasoning, however basic that act might be. Given that inherent existence is a false concept, can the non-dual mind recognize a false concept for what it is without giving raise to conceptual thinking? This is the issue I am struggling with.
If you see and hear a stadium with a thousand cheering fans, you can perceive, without giving it too much thought (if any) that although the cheering appears as a unified sound (“the roar of the crowd”) , it is in fact a composite phenomenon.
Likewise, a Buddha sees what appear to us as inherently existing (non-composite) phenomena, and perceives it directly, without any conceptualization at all, that it is a composite.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
PeterC
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Re: Emptiness as negation

Post by PeterC »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 10:53 pm
Shinjin wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 10:41 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 9:24 pm As I said, he is an idiot.
He has a phd in philosophy according to his bio.
Yes, well, you know what Ph.D stands for? Pinheaded Dope.
Relative to BS, I thought it stood for Piled Higher and Deeper
Malcolm
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Re: Emptiness as negation

Post by Malcolm »

PeterC wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 1:00 am
Malcolm wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 10:53 pm
Shinjin wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 10:41 pm

He has a phd in philosophy according to his bio.
Yes, well, you know what Ph.D stands for? Pinheaded Dope.
Relative to BS, I thought it stood for Piled Higher and Deeper
That too….
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tobes
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Re: Emptiness as negation

Post by tobes »

I think that this problem is something that a lot of the analytic philosophers working on Madhyamaka fall into - The Cowherders. They reduce emptiness to a cognitive moment - the (purely) logical negation of svabhava, which disappears once it has accomplished its aim, leaving only conventional reality.

What's missed in this approach is the possibility of meditative equipoise on the emptiness of whatever object is being viewed.

So I'm not surprised that other people are going astray in this way, given their relative influence.
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Aemilius
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Re: Emptiness as negation

Post by Aemilius »

Maha-suññata Sutta: The Greater Discourse on Emptiness
translated from the Pali by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu:

"But there is this (mental) dwelling discovered by the Tathagata where, not attending to any themes, he enters & remains in internal emptiness. If, while he is dwelling there by means of this dwelling, he is visited by monks, nuns, lay men, lay women, kings, royal ministers, sectarians & their disciples, then — with his mind bent on seclusion, tending toward seclusion, inclined toward seclusion, aiming at seclusion, relishing renunciation, having destroyed those qualities that are the basis for mental fermentation — he converses with them only as much as is necessary for them to take their leave.

"He attends to internal emptiness. While he is attending to internal emptiness, his mind does not take pleasure, find satisfaction, grow steady, or indulge in internal emptiness. When this is the case, he discerns, 'While I am attending to internal emptiness, my mind does not take pleasure, find satisfaction, grow steady, or indulge in internal emptiness.' In this way he is alert there.

"He attends to external emptiness...

"He attends to internal & external emptiness...

"So, Ananda, if a monk should wish, 'May I enter & remain in internal emptiness,' then he should get the mind steadied right within, settled, unified, & concentrated. And how does the monk get the mind steadied right within, settled, unified, & concentrated? There is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensual pleasures, withdrawn from unskillful qualities — enters & remains in the first jhana... the second jhana... the third jhana... the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither-pleasure-nor-pain. That is how a monk gets the mind steadied right within, settled, unified, & concentrated."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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treehuggingoctopus
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Re: Emptiness as negation

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

Shinjin wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 10:41 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 9:24 pm As I said, he is an idiot.
He has a phd in philosophy according to his bio.
If you advertise as Mr X Y, Ph.D., then you are likely to be a charlatan.

If you boast of being "a researcher and writer in logic, philosophy, and spirituality" who "has, since 1990, written original works," then you are bound to be one. But this bloke continues, adding that his "original works" deal with "the theory and practice of inductive and deductive logic, phenomenology, epistemology, aetiology, psychology, meditation, ethics, and much more." Wait, there is indeed much more: "He has, over a period of some 28 years, published 27 books."

And still more, just keeps coming and coming! "It is very difficult to briefly summarize Avi Sion’s philosophy, because it is so wide-ranging."

Really, people. All the signs in the bloody universe are here, and then some more.

PS. After 7 seconds of googling:


If you cannot see it, here is a brief summary: "No to Sodom is an essay against homosexuality, using biological, psychological, spiritual, ethical and political arguments."

Spiritual arguments must be really cool. Can I get some?
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Miorita
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Re: Emptiness as negation

Post by Miorita »

cyril wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 6:43 am Ok, so I am currently reading Avi Sion’s “Logical criticism of Buddhist doctrines” and I came across the following argumentation:
Emptiness cannot be claimed as a one-off experience because it is defined by negation as the absence of essence or self-nature. Negation is a basic act of reason. It is not something ever directly experienced, not a positive phenomenon. Thus, to claim that what Buddha experienced is precisely emptiness, it would be necessary to claim a positive character to emptiness; otherwise it must be admitted his rational faculty was involved.

Can anyone spot what is wrong in this line of thought? I’ve been ruminating on this for a couple of days now and I still cannot find any fault in the author’s reasoning. And yet, since it denies the Aryas’ non-conceptual cognition of emptiness, there must be something wrong there.
He gives you his argument as support for further discussion. You don't like it not because he is not giving you choices, but because he is in error.
"Negation is a basic act of reason"
If you agree with him, then you're constrained to his argument. I call this a bait.
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Re: Emptiness as negation

Post by PeterC »

treehuggingoctopus wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 5:22 pm
PS. After 7 seconds of googling:


If you cannot see it, here is a brief summary: "No to Sodom is an essay against homosexuality, using biological, psychological, spiritual, ethical and political arguments."

Spiritual arguments must be really cool. Can I get some?
I’m going to buy and read this just for fun. It’s only a buck.
Last edited by PeterC on Sat Jan 22, 2022 3:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
PeterC
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Re: Emptiness as negation

Post by PeterC »

Best dollar I’ve spent in a while. Can barely stop laughing.
It is as if the homosexuals are not content with being homosexuals, but additionally want to force their presence on the rest of us. They are ethically and politically aggressive, demanding that everyone else consider them and treat them as normal. Nay, more: they even want us all to follow their way, and our children to be educated to do so.
Nay, more! We must resist the demands of these ethically aggressive homosexuals!
But what of the education of the children who see such posters? What of the sensibilities of purer souls, who would never even think of such acts were they not told about them? One can only suppose that such campaigns are only superficially to do with public health or targeted at homosexuals. In view of the advertisers’ indifference to the value of sexual innocence, it must be assumed that the real motive of such campaigns is to promote homosexuality.
There’s a guy in Russia who thinks pretty much exactly the same
This philosopher has therefore decided to analyze the subject of homosexuality3 – so that such people not get away with their sexual revolution. They think they’ve got it made, ethically and politically; but no, they can surely be refuted and defeated.
Philosophy to the rescue!
Our primary task is to try to understand the psychology of homosexuals, so as to objectively explain why they are as they are, and moreover why they ought not to be as they are (and how they might change). We have to show convincingly that such behavior is abnormal and harmful, for the individuals concerned and for society as a whole.
So step one would be to round them up, or conveniently identify them by making them wear symbols on their clothing?
Let us first clarify and define some terms. Forgive the explicit language sometimes used here. Concerning the terms “sex” and “gender”: they mean the same thing, of course – they both refer to the distinction between males and females. But the more colloquial term “sex” can sometimes, in the context of a discussion like the present one, be confused with reference to the sex act – so the term “gender” (which was till recently only used by grammarians) seems often preferable.
That grinding sound you hear is pitchforks being sharpened in various sociology departments.
Males and females are distinguishable physically, mentally and behaviorally. They have markedly different anatomies (sex organs, hormones, shapes and sizes, facial appearances) and genetic makeup (sex chromosomes), somewhat different feelings, thoughts, attitudes and characters, and somewhat different behavior patterns. There may also be spiritual differences between the sexes (and maybe even sexual differences between souls). Thus, gender is a complex of many factors, some of which are clear-cut, while others are more difficult to define precisely. Still, it is quite amazing how quickly we are, in the vast majority of cases, able to “tell” a man from a woman at a glance (although sometimes we are uncertain or wrong in our initial assessment).
I’m thinking his PhD in philosophy may have been one of these mail-order deals. “Get credit for life experience” sort of thing.
Thus, under our definitions, a bisexual, a male or female who has sexual relations occasionally with men and occasionally with women, or with both at once, is a homosexual. That is, whether someone only turns to the same gender for sex (an exclusive homosexual) or sometimes also turns to the opposite sex (a bisexual) – such an individual is, for all intents and purposes here, to be termed “a homosexual”. These distinctions are important to note, because apologists of homosexuality often cunningly use bisexuality to blur differences with heterosexuality in peoples’ minds. Vague terminology is used to confuse issues.
Uh…right.
It is clear that a person can be called homosexual only if he or she engages in sex with someone of the same gender knowingly and willingly. If he or she did not know the sex partner to be a transvestite or transsexual5, or if the sex act occurred under coercion or before being mature enough to understand what is happening, then he or she is obviously not a homosexual, but simply a victim of homosexual trickery or rape. The question may be asked: is a person who has engaged in homosexual activities (once or more) in the past (recent or distant) to be called a homosexual? The logical answer would be: yes – unless or until that person has sincerely regretted past deeds and resolved never to repeat them. For an unrepentant past homosexual is surely more susceptible to homosexuality than a non-homosexual. Only a repentant past homosexual may properly be called an ex-homosexual.
Ok, I could go on here, but it’s starting to make me feel vaguely sick.

Can we all agree that we should not be listening to or discussing this guy’s ideas about Nagarjuna, because he is obviously a total idiot?
PeterC
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Re: Emptiness as negation

Post by PeterC »

This just gets better.
Is a mere hand caressing someone’s arm, or a kiss on someone’s cheek, or a gentle hug – to be termed a “sex act”? The answer is, obviously, sometimes: yes. It is yes in cases where such conceivably non-sexual acts arouse sexual sensations, however vague, in at least one of the persons concerned. Even a seductive smile, a tone of voice or a perfume can be considered a sexually charged phenomenon, in this perspective. When judging the nature of volitional actions, we must especially focus on their intent. A smile or caress without sexual intent is obviously not comparable to one with sexual undertone. But such cases would be the minimal degree in a wide continuum of possibilities. …

I would like to draw attention to the intellectual dishonesty of advocates of homosexuality. They deliberately use generic terms like “same-sex attraction”, ranging from outright sodomy to vague homosexual feelings not so far put into action, in order to fudge the great psychological and moral differences that exist across this broad range. The aim and effect of such neutral sounding vocabulary is to make active homosexuality seem as innocuous as mere homosexual tendency, or the latter as committed as the former. Additionally, it sends a message to the uncommitted that, since they are already equivalent anyway, they might as well put their desires into action. …

Advocates of homosexuality claim it is something “natural”, pointing out that some bonono monkeys do it8. Is that a valid argument? Are these people bonono monkeys? Or are bonono monkeys their spiritual guides?
This man is clearly so deep in the closet that he doesn’t realize it himself. He needs a therapist.
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Re: Emptiness as negation

Post by PeterC »

This does illustrate why when someone presents an arbitrary “refutation” of Nagarjuna or some other aspect of the Dharma, the first thing we should ask is, who is this person and why should we care. Mr Avi Sion (PhD) is basically a nobody vanity-publishing his uninformed stream-of-consciousness nonsense. Nagarjuna has been around for a couple of millennia and is one of the most important philosophers Asia has produced. Nagarjuna doesn’t need to answer to Avi Sion, we don’t have to waste our time trying to understand and critique what Avi Sion thinks of Nagarjuna. If we’re bored, then sure we can do it for a laugh, but life is short, the time of death is uncertain, etc etc. so if Nagarjuna was here he would advise us to practice rather than defend him against someone of complete irrelevance.
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Re: Emptiness as negation

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PeterC wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 3:35 amOk, I could go on here, but it’s starting to make me feel vaguely sick.

Can we all agree that we should not be listening to or discussing this guy’s ideas about Nagarjuna, because he is obviously a total idiot?
I salute your stomach, sir.

He is a marvel not-so-rare these days: a genuinely deluded fanatic, absolutely convinced of his being always, without fail, in the perfect right, and at the same time a consummate crook, out for the contents of your wallet, your attention, possibly your body organs.
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PeterC
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Re: Emptiness as negation

Post by PeterC »

treehuggingoctopus wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 11:11 am
PeterC wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 3:35 amOk, I could go on here, but it’s starting to make me feel vaguely sick.

Can we all agree that we should not be listening to or discussing this guy’s ideas about Nagarjuna, because he is obviously a total idiot?
I salute your stomach, sir.

He is a marvel not-so-rare these days: a genuinely deluded fanatic, absolutely convinced of his being always, without fail, in the perfect right, and at the same time a consummate crook, out for the contents of your wallet, your attention, possibly your body organs.
The things we do for Nagarjuna….

The problem with vanity publishing these days is that it’s too easy. You could write a learned tome on the profound instructions of the octopus nyingthig and make it available to everyone in the world with little more than a computer, some free software and a few dollars. A millennia ago you didn’t get to debate some learned Pandita just because you had a degree and an opinion, you needed to actually be someone
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treehuggingoctopus
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Re: Emptiness as negation

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

PeterC wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 5:18 amoctopus nyingthig
We have to be careful. A sociologist friend of mine is convinced that the world, or a wicked part of it coextensive with the rest, is listening and perverse -- and willing to implement some of our ideas, the insaner (or the more inane), the better. Hence the Simpsons episode actually paved the way for Trump's actual presidency, some moronic jokes mumbled or groaned during a Friday pubcrawl opened a sinister door for BoJo, etc. You are free to disbelieve and ridicule, of course, but as far as I am concerned, the empirical evidence is rock solid.

Now I can solemnly promise that I will not produce any octopus nyingthigs, at least not so long as I am of sound body and mind. But...

PS. "Octopus nyingthig" sounds very Lovecraftian. Coincidence?
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Re: Emptiness as negation

Post by PeterC »

treehuggingoctopus wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 10:05 am PS. "Octopus nyingthig" sounds very Lovecraftian. Coincidence?
I hear the cycle has an utterly secret yidam practice…

CBC494D4-F31D-4575-AB54-FF901669FA3C.jpeg
CBC494D4-F31D-4575-AB54-FF901669FA3C.jpeg (47.07 KiB) Viewed 3411 times
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treehuggingoctopus
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Re: Emptiness as negation

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

PeterC wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 10:41 am
treehuggingoctopus wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 10:05 am PS. "Octopus nyingthig" sounds very Lovecraftian. Coincidence?
I hear the cycle has an utterly secret yidam practice…


CBC494D4-F31D-4575-AB54-FF901669FA3C.jpeg
First discovered by the famous terton Abdul Alhazred. I wonder where one can find living lineage holders.
Générosité de l’invisible.
Notre gratitude est infinie.
Le critère est l’hospitalité.

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PeterC
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Re: Emptiness as negation

Post by PeterC »

treehuggingoctopus wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 11:22 am
PeterC wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 10:41 am
treehuggingoctopus wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 10:05 am PS. "Octopus nyingthig" sounds very Lovecraftian. Coincidence?
I hear the cycle has an utterly secret yidam practice…


CBC494D4-F31D-4575-AB54-FF901669FA3C.jpeg
First discovered by the famous terton Abdul Alhazred. I wonder where one can find living lineage holders.
I hear there’s a few in Massachusetts - in Miskatonic University, I believe
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