What is the motivation for Tibetan Buddhists to join the monastics?

[2ndchance]

I have a question.

Must a monastic live and practice in a monastery? Is there such a rule?

Suppose Mark Zuckerberg wanna become a monk.

Can Mark Z purchase a private apartment in India near the Dalai Lama’s monastery and live and practice the Buddhist Dharma in his private apartment in India?

[zerwe]

I have a question.

Must a monastic live and practice in a monastery? Is there such a rule?

Suppose Mark Zuckerberg wanna become a monk.

Can Mark Z purchase a private apartment in India near the Dalai Lama’s monastery and live and practice the Buddhist Dharma in his private apartment in India?

No, there a plenty of Monastics living in the West who live independently without attachment to a monastery and, I could be mistaken, but I have heard that some work.

Shaun

[Brunelleschi]

No, there a plenty of Monastics living in the West who live independently without attachment to a monastery and, I could be mistaken, but I have heard that some work.

Shaun

I think you have misunderstood this. If you are a monk or nun, you are not allowed to work.

[Brunelleschi]

Nevertheless, the PATHS are different. There are in general three types of paths: renunciation (Hinayāna, Common Mahāyāna), transformation (lower tantras, mahāyoga and anuyoga), and self-liberation (Ati, Mahāmudra).

The confusion arises because the word renunciation in English translates different terms in Tibetan. Renunciation as a path is termed "spangs (utkṣiptā) lam," literally "the path of discarding or giving up." Where as the idea of renunciation of samsara is niḥsaraṇa (nges par 'byung). So yes, all Buddhists paths are predicated on niḥsaraṇa, but not all Buddhists path are predicated on the idea of utkṣiptā.

Hi, definitely agree. I just wanted to stress the philosophical basis. You are correct of course.

[zerwe]

No, there a plenty of Monastics living in the West who live independently without attachment to a monastery and, I could be mistaken, but I have heard that some work.

Shaun

I think you have misunderstood this. If you are a monk or nun, you are not allowed to work.

Corrected. Happy to be wrong.

Shaun

[Malcolm]

I think you have misunderstood this. If you are a monk or nun, you are not allowed to work.

Not so. Bodhisattva bhikṣus are not obligated to follow this rule, just as they are allowed to handle money, farm, have possessions, property, and so on.

[2ndchance]

I have a question.

Must a monastic live and practice in a monastery? Is there such a rule?

Suppose Mark Zuckerberg wanna become a monk.

Can Mark Z purchase a private apartment in India near the Dalai Lama’s monastery and live and practice the Buddhist Dharma in his private apartment in India?

No, there a plenty of Monastics living in the West who live independently without attachment to a monastery and, I could be mistaken, but I have heard that some work.

Shaun

Hello Shaun, Thank You for replying.

The reason why I asked this is because there is this Singaporean Venerable Tenzin Drachom who was a Singaporean Army Special Forces (US Navy Seals) soldier for a few decades before he was ordained by the 14th Dalai Lama himself in the year 2017.

The Venerable Tenzin Drachom seems to own a private apartment in Singapore and conducts teaching out of his own private apartment in Singapore which seem to house a number of Tibetan Buddhist statues.

I know another Tibetan Buddhist lama who also live and practice the dharma in a private apartment in Taipei, Taiwan. This is why I am asking this question because I feel a strong inclination to follow their footsteps ie become a Tibetan Buddhist monk to live and practice the dharma in my own private apartment.

https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCqYgHSRo ... HtQ/videos



As you can observe from the YouTube videos above, the Venerable Tenzin Drachom is teaching some Singaporean Buddhist students out of a small but humble private apartment.

Looking forward to your inputs.

[zerwe]

I have a question.

Must a monastic live and practice in a monastery? Is there such a rule?

Suppose Mark Zuckerberg wanna become a monk.

Can Mark Z purchase a private apartment in India near the Dalai Lama’s monastery and live and practice the Buddhist Dharma in his private apartment in India?

No, there a plenty of Monastics living in the West who live independently without attachment to a monastery and, I could be mistaken, but I have heard that some work.

Shaun

Hello Shaun, Thank You for replying.

The reason why I asked this is because there is this Singaporean Venerable Tenzin Drachom who was a Singaporean Army Special Forces (US Navy Seals) soldier for a few decades before he was ordained by the 14th Dalai Lama himself in the year 2017.

The Venerable Tenzin Drachom seems to own a private apartment in Singapore and conducts teaching out of his own private apartment in Singapore which seem to house a number of Tibetan Buddhist statues.

I know another Tibetan Buddhist lama who also live and practice the dharma in a private apartment in Taipei, Taiwan. This is why I am asking this question because I feel a strong inclination to follow their footsteps ie become a Tibetan Buddhist monk to live and practice the dharma in my own private apartment.

https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCqYgHSRo ... HtQ/videos



As you can observe from the YouTube videos above, the Venerable Tenzin Drachom is teaching some Singaporean Buddhist students out of a small but humble private apartment.

Looking forward to your inputs.

While, I rejoice in your interest in ordination, I really think that you should seek out the advice of those who are ordained and perhaps advice from those who may be outside of your area or culture. Ordination is a very big decision, one's motivation needs to be firm, and I feel like some people need a resource who can provide a realistic idea of what it is like to live as a monastic in today's modern world.

A very good resource, a place that you might be able to find the answers to your questions and find support, would be with the International Mahayana Institute (or IMI).

https://imisangha.org/ordain/

I wish you the best in your efforts.

Shaun

[Ayu]

AFAIK, it's not easy to be ordained in the west and get supported. Because there is no system of regular donations for monks and nuns, the western ordained live in a dilemma often between earning money and following the rules.
Contact to and friendship with other monks or nuns seems to be essential for them. Many leave again, because the mismatch between the two worlds of should & can becomes too big.

This is only what I heard. Actually I know some wonderful bikkhus/bikkhunis who couldn't manage to stay.

[PadmaVonSamba]

Must a monastic live and practice in a monastery? Is there such a rule?

Many of the rules in the vinaya are written in the context of a group of monastics living together. I think that what you need to ask yourself is, if you are not going to live with other monks, what is the purpose of becoming a monk? What I mean is, you can still follow as many monk rules as you can and live like a monk by yourself, without actually becoming a monk. This is not uncommon for a single person who wants to spend all of their time absorbed in Dharma study and practice. Make sure the desire to be a monk isn’t subconsciously a cosplay fantasy that you don’t even realize.

There is a reason why refuge is taken in the Three Jewels and not just two. If you become a monk and only live alone, then you miss all the benefits of the group-situation that the Buddha established as the sangha.

A very important thing to keep in mind, as a Mahayanist, is how your actions will be of the most benefit to others. If you live a simple Dharma life as a layperson, get a job so you have money to live, and interact with others as a regular person, you may set a very good example to others, perhaps even causing them to become curious about the Dharma. Over time, you may be the reason why many people in turn take refuge.

On the other hand, just being some guy who goes around in robes and a shaved head who lives alone, people might just think you are some weirdo and avoid you. Then, who are you benefitting? Of course, it’s possible that this would also attract people to the Dharma, knowing some guy in their neighborhood who is a monk. But then what do they do? Do you imagine yourself as being their teacher or something like that? Would you direct them to the nearest Dharma center? If so, then why wouldn’t you simply be part of that Dharma center?

Be careful. The whole “Buddhist monk” thing has become a very romantic or poetic image in literature, movies, and television. I’m sure the monk In Singapore lived for years as part of a monastic community before striking out on his own.

I also knew a lama who lived by himself in Taiwan. He had many students and actually became the teacher of a someone who is a very well-known Taiwanese master. But he also had an extensive background in India, where he had been the head of a monastery. Taiwan and Singapore are heavily Buddhist societies, so you might be able to live alone as a monk there. But in the west? Not very easy.

[zerwe]

Actually, when I was a kid we had a Theravadan monk from Vietnam who lived with his family in my neighborhood.

This was a somewhat rare case in the southeastern US, which was our new home at the time, but there were still a lot of new immigrants from southeast Asia escaping the wars and coming to the US in the late 70s and early 80s and this was yet another way that the dharma was continued to spread to the west.

I used to ask my mother about the monk and, granted my parents were hippies who were now nearly fully acculturated suburbanites, she would tell me that monks were trying to discover the true nature of reality and would go on to tell me about the idealized notion of Shangri-la etc...

I found this very inspiring. So, you might say that just the mere presence of the ordained outside of the monastery can have an impact.

It was a rare sight, but we always tried to catch a glimpse of him out on his patio garden.

Shaun

[jmlee369]

If the Mahasiddhas were not all monastics, and if Vajrayana is not a path of renunciation, and if great accomplishment in the path is open to lay Buddhists, then what is the motivation of young Tibetans to join the monkhood?

There is no contradiction between practicing tantra and being a monastic, in fact in the Kalachakra system the bhikshu vajra master is praised as best, followed by the sramanera vajra master, and the householder vajra master is lowest.

I would hazard a guess that the majority of serious Tibetan tantric practitioners are monastics, not lay people. While the mahasiddhas and many lay practitioners have also gained accomplishment and realisations on the path, the reality is that the majority of lay people don't have the time or resources to dedicate themselves to full time tantric practice unlike many monastics. Some people have ideas that monastic practice of tantra is somehow a Tibetan distortion, but if you look at the Indian commentaries of the Chakrasamvara tantra preserved in the Tengyur for example, the majority of them were composed by the abbots of Vikramasila monastery.

Won't the consort practice (even mental) be in conflict with the vinaya vow around keeping the thoughts pure from sexual contact?

Vinaya rules cover actions of body and speech, indirectly taming the mind. But that's besides the point. His Holiness the Dalai Lama has stated previously (I think in 1993?) that as far as he knows, there is no one alive who is qualified to do consort practice (this may be read as saying more specifically there is no one who can both maintain their bhikshu status and practice with an actual consort). I am reluctant to talk about this publicly, but in the spirit of His Holiness' advice to dispel misunderstandings I hope this will help. Consort practice is only strictly necessary at a very advanced stage of the Vajrayana path, so much so that by the time you are qualified, you would already have attained clairvoyance and other siddhis. That requires enormous dedication to practice, probably beyond the reach of even most monastics. In addition, such a qualified person would probably follow in the footsteps of the mahasiddhas such as Naropa, Virupa, Ghantapa, and Tibetan masters such as the 5th Lelung tulku, or closer to our own times, masters like the first Serkong Dorje Chang, Jamyang Khyentse Chokyi Lodro or even (one of the current) Karmapa Thaye Dorje who gave up their status as bhikshus. Until that point, monastic ordination can provide very good conditions for practising tantra.

[Nalanda]

There is no contradiction between practicing tantra and being a monastic, in fact in the Kalachakra system the bhikshu vajra master is praised as best, followed by the sramanera vajra master, and the householder vajra master is lowest.

I would hazard a guess that the majority of serious Tibetan tantric practitioners are monastics, not lay people. While the mahasiddhas and many lay practitioners have also gained accomplishment and realisations on the path, the reality is that the majority of lay people don't have the time or resources to dedicate themselves to full time tantric practice unlike many monastics. Some people have ideas that monastic practice of tantra is somehow a Tibetan distortion, but if you look at the Indian commentaries of the Chakrasamvara tantra preserved in the Tengyur for example, the majority of them were composed by the abbots of Vikramasila monastery.

Won't the consort practice (even mental) be in conflict with the vinaya vow around keeping the thoughts pure from sexual contact?

Vinaya rules cover actions of body and speech, indirectly taming the mind. But that's besides the point. His Holiness the Dalai Lama has stated previously (I think in 1993?) that as far as he knows, there is no one alive who is qualified to do consort practice (this may be read as saying more specifically there is no one who can both maintain their bhikshu status and practice with an actual consort). I am reluctant to talk about this publicly, but in the spirit of His Holiness' advice to dispel misunderstandings I hope this will help. Consort practice is only strictly necessary at a very advanced stage of the Vajrayana path, so much so that by the time you are qualified, you would already have attained clairvoyance and other siddhis. That requires enormous dedication to practice, probably beyond the reach of even most monastics. In addition, such a qualified person would probably follow in the footsteps of the mahasiddhas such as Naropa, Virupa, Ghantapa, and Tibetan masters such as the 5th Lelung tulku, or closer to our own times, masters like the first Serkong Dorje Chang, Jamyang Khyentse Chokyi Lodro or even (one of the current) Karmapa Thaye Dorje who gave up their status as bhikshus. Until that point, monastic ordination can provide very good conditions for practising tantra.

Thanks for that. So unless I am misunderstanding, at the very advanced stages of Vajrayana, there are no monastics. ("beyond the reach of monastics") Before that gives us an idea that this is open for laity, you said also that clairvoyance and other siddhis would be there, so to me that is as good as saying, this isn't open for the laity as well. And what kind of advanced non-monastic is this Vajrayana practitioner that he/she is so advanced in the path, far exceeding monastics but still needing to practice this consort practice.

On a side note, if I am not misunderstanding, Glen Mullins mentioned that he gave some married couples some consort-type practices. I'll find the quote (video) if I can find it, but if that is being practiced by couples who are Buddhists, then that's not quite of advanced practice, is it?

[PeterC]

Thanks for that. So unless I am misunderstanding, at the very advanced stages of Vajrayana, there are no monastics. ("beyond the reach of monastics") Before that gives us an idea that this is open for laity, you said also that clairvoyance and other siddhis would be there, so to me that is as good as saying, this isn't open for the laity as well. And what kind of advanced non-monastic is this Vajrayana practitioner that he/she is so advanced in the path, far exceeding monastics but still needing to practice this consort practice.

On a side note, if I am not misunderstanding, Glen Mullins mentioned that he gave some married couples some consort-type practices. I'll find the quote (video) if I can find it, but if that is being practiced by couples who are Buddhists, then that's not quite of advanced practice, is it?

This isn’t really an appropriate topic for a public forum, because anyone with transmission of these practices is breaching samaya by sharing details. But we can at a minimum say that if one is qualified to engage in these practices in the sense that HHDL describes then one would not breach Vinaya vows by so doing; and also these practices are not necessary for liberation in all systems of practice.

[Nalanda]

Oh okay. Didn't know. Thanks.

[amanitamusc]

If the Mahasiddhas were not all monastics, and if Vajrayana is not a path of renunciation, and if great accomplishment in the path is open to lay Buddhists, then what is the motivation of young Tibetans to join the monkhood?

Its obviously the food.

[Miorita]

Of course, the expenses might weigh easier on someone, but a monastery offers education, different horizons and perspectives, and a way of life in which there is a chance to excel. Living high up in the mountains does not allow much interference from the social.

Then there is the cleanliness aspect, being in groups with others having the same interests, it's about considering in general things that one can do for their own to improve their person and condition.

I don't want to be intrusive in their harmony. People find it easier to respect, follow rules if they are living, working, studying in a community rather than on their own and having to do and coordinate everything themselves.

Yes, education is a big reward, plus connecting with others/and teachers. Name, reputation, I believe may play a role in the decision to join the monastics.

Gorampa might know more.

[PadmaVonSamba]

If the Mahasiddhas were not all monastics, and if Vajrayana is not a path of renunciation, and if great accomplishment in the path is open to lay Buddhists, then what is the motivation of young Tibetans to join the monkhood?

Its obviously the food.

It’s definitely a career path too, for those who want to go that route. The fact that the setting is monastic is, in a sense, beside the point, just as it would be with a private boarding school requiring students to wear a uniform. In other words, yeah, that’s the traditional setting. But you don’t become a monk just to be a monk. You become a monk in order to develop qualities that lead to full realization.

And if you come from a poor family, it’s like being the one who goes to medical school. There’s some degree of status and respect to he gained by you and your family.

[Charlie123]

Not sure how it is today in India and Nepal, but at monasteries in old Tibet you needed to pay for your own food. So, monks either came from a wealthy family who could foot their food bill or had some other sponsor.

[Malcolm]

Of course, the expenses might weigh easier on someone, but a monastery offers education, different horizons and perspectives, and a way of life in which there is a chance to excel. Living high up in the mountains does not allow much interference from the social...

This a pretty Shangri La account. It's not very grounded in reality.