What is the motivation for Tibetan Buddhists to join the monastics?

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Nalanda
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What is the motivation for Tibetan Buddhists to join the monastics?

Post by Nalanda »

If the Mahasiddhas were not all monastics, and if Vajrayana is not a path of renunciation, and if great accomplishment in the path is open to lay Buddhists, then what is the motivation of young Tibetans to join the monkhood?
IF YOU PRACTICE WITH A STRONG BELIEF IN WHAT
YOU ARE DOING, THEN THERE IS NO LIMIT TO WHAT
YOU CAN ACCOMPLISH WITH YOUR PRACTICE.

CHAKUNG JIGME WANGDRAK RINPOCHE

stoneinfocus
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Re: What is the motivation for Tibetan Buddhists to join the monastics?

Post by stoneinfocus »

Nalanda wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 6:41 am If the Mahasiddhas were not all monastics, and if Vajrayana is not a path of renunciation, and if great accomplishment in the path is open to lay Buddhists, then what is the motivation of young Tibetans to join the monkhood?
Potential for education, shelter, food, opportunities for the family, etc...Not always guaranteed, though. If you were unlucky, you would probably scrape by, especially if your family couldn't provide for you. But if a young monk or nun was exceptionally talented or intelligent, it could result in positive gains for themselves and their families in turn.
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Re: What is the motivation for Tibetan Buddhists to join the monastics?

Post by Ayu »

Nalanda wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 6:41 am If the Mahasiddhas were not all monastics, and if Vajrayana is not a path of renunciation, and if great accomplishment in the path is open to lay Buddhists, then what is the motivation of young Tibetans to join the monkhood?
In basic scriptures like the Lamrim it is said that in a life as monk/nun mundane affairs are being renounced. This should imply more concentration on dharma studies and practice. Therefore the precious and rare human life is being utilized more effectively. They have the chance to gain a better karma and lead a more meaningful live. The danger of being distracted is less, compared with lay people.

The idea that "Vajrayana is not a path of renunciation" is wrong. It's just a different kind of renunciation.
Brunelleschi
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Re: What is the motivation for Tibetan Buddhists to join the monastics?

Post by Brunelleschi »

Nalanda wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 6:41 am If the Mahasiddhas were not all monastics, and if Vajrayana is not a path of renunciation, and if great accomplishment in the path is open to lay Buddhists, then what is the motivation of young Tibetans to join the monkhood?
Hmmph, this is a misunderstanding. E.g., see Je Tsongkhapas text Three Principal Aspects of the Path (renunciation, bodhicitta and wisdom/insight).

Whilst lacking pure renunciation there is no way to pacify
The continual thirst for pleasure in the ocean of saṃsāra,
And since all living beings are bound by their craving for existence,
You must begin by finding the determination to be free.

The freedoms and advantages are rare, and there’s no time to waste—
Reflect on this again and yet again, and dispel attachment to this life.
To dispel attachment to your future lives, contemplate repeatedly
The unfailing effects of karma and the sufferings of saṃsāra.

When, through growing accustomed to thinking in this way,
Hope for the pleasures of saṃsāra no longer arises even for an instant,
And throughout both day and night you long for liberation,
Then, at that time, true renunciation has been born.


via: https://www.lotsawahouse.org/tibetan-ma ... al-aspects
jmlee369
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Re: What is the motivation for Tibetan Buddhists to join the monastics?

Post by jmlee369 »

Nalanda wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 6:41 am If the Mahasiddhas were not all monastics, and if Vajrayana is not a path of renunciation, and if great accomplishment in the path is open to lay Buddhists, then what is the motivation of young Tibetans to join the monkhood?
There is no contradiction between practicing tantra and being a monastic, in fact in the Kalachakra system the bhikshu vajra master is praised as best, followed by the sramanera vajra master, and the householder vajra master is lowest.

I would hazard a guess that the majority of serious Tibetan tantric practitioners are monastics, not lay people. While the mahasiddhas and many lay practitioners have also gained accomplishment and realisations on the path, the reality is that the majority of lay people don't have the time or resources to dedicate themselves to full time tantric practice unlike many monastics. Some people have ideas that monastic practice of tantra is somehow a Tibetan distortion, but if you look at the Indian commentaries of the Chakrasamvara tantra preserved in the Tengyur for example, the majority of them were composed by the abbots of Vikramasila monastery.
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Re: What is the motivation for Tibetan Buddhists to join the monastics?

Post by Nalanda »

Brunelleschi wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 10:00 am
Nalanda wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 6:41 am If the Mahasiddhas were not all monastics, and if Vajrayana is not a path of renunciation, and if great accomplishment in the path is open to lay Buddhists, then what is the motivation of young Tibetans to join the monkhood?
Hmmph, this is a misunderstanding. E.g., see Je Tsongkhapas text Three Principal Aspects of the Path (renunciation, bodhicitta and wisdom/insight).

Whilst lacking pure renunciation there is no way to pacify
The continual thirst for pleasure in the ocean of saṃsāra,
And since all living beings are bound by their craving for existence,
You must begin by finding the determination to be free.

The freedoms and advantages are rare, and there’s no time to waste—
Reflect on this again and yet again, and dispel attachment to this life.
To dispel attachment to your future lives, contemplate repeatedly
The unfailing effects of karma and the sufferings of saṃsāra.

When, through growing accustomed to thinking in this way,
Hope for the pleasures of saṃsāra no longer arises even for an instant,
And throughout both day and night you long for liberation,
Then, at that time, true renunciation has been born.


via: https://www.lotsawahouse.org/tibetan-ma ... al-aspects

That to me sounds like it IS a path of renunciation then. Right?
IF YOU PRACTICE WITH A STRONG BELIEF IN WHAT
YOU ARE DOING, THEN THERE IS NO LIMIT TO WHAT
YOU CAN ACCOMPLISH WITH YOUR PRACTICE.

CHAKUNG JIGME WANGDRAK RINPOCHE

Nalanda
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Re: What is the motivation for Tibetan Buddhists to join the monastics?

Post by Nalanda »

jmlee369 wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 10:07 am
Nalanda wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 6:41 am If the Mahasiddhas were not all monastics, and if Vajrayana is not a path of renunciation, and if great accomplishment in the path is open to lay Buddhists, then what is the motivation of young Tibetans to join the monkhood?
There is no contradiction between practicing tantra and being a monastic, in fact in the Kalachakra system the bhikshu vajra master is praised as best, followed by the sramanera vajra master, and the householder vajra master is lowest.

I would hazard a guess that the majority of serious Tibetan tantric practitioners are monastics, not lay people. While the mahasiddhas and many lay practitioners have also gained accomplishment and realisations on the path, the reality is that the majority of lay people don't have the time or resources to dedicate themselves to full time tantric practice unlike many monastics. Some people have ideas that monastic practice of tantra is somehow a Tibetan distortion, but if you look at the Indian commentaries of the Chakrasamvara tantra preserved in the Tengyur for example, the majority of them were composed by the abbots of Vikramasila monastery.

Won't the consort practice (even mental) be in conflict with the vinaya vow around keeping the thoughts pure from sexual contact?
IF YOU PRACTICE WITH A STRONG BELIEF IN WHAT
YOU ARE DOING, THEN THERE IS NO LIMIT TO WHAT
YOU CAN ACCOMPLISH WITH YOUR PRACTICE.

CHAKUNG JIGME WANGDRAK RINPOCHE

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Re: What is the motivation for Tibetan Buddhists to join the monastics?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Even as a layperson, one leans towards following many aspects of the monastic tradition to the extent that one can. Although there are a few famous mahasiddhas (and let’s admit it, in 2600 years there have been relatively few laypersons regarded as being accomplished masters) they are legendary for two reasons. First, as an inspiration, that perfect and complete realization is possible for laypersons, and second, they are “famous” precisely because they are rare. In a sense, there’s a contradiction here, isn’t there? Any layperson, theoretically, can become a realized master, yet very few do. Why? Because it takes an extraordinary amount of devotion, dedication, practice, and merit. Regarding everything as practice isn’t enough.

The main difference between monastics and lay practitioners is that we don’t take vows we know we can’t keep. I think that for many lay practitioners, they would like to have had the opportunity to be monastic but, knowing themselves, understand that they are not cut out for it. I think it is probable that many who are strongly drawn towards the Dharma in this life were monastics in a previous life.

There is nothing nobler in the Buddhist tradition than to become a monk or nun. In traditionally Buddhist countries, people recognize this and support the monasteries and the monastics. In the west, there are now many new lamas, but most are not fully supported by their sanghas, and of course much less by their communities, and they have to hold down paying jobs. So, if one really wants to devote full time to disciplined Dharma study and practice, monastic is the way to go.

One other thing, on a practical level… A lama I know in Sikkim built a monastic school for girls in India who have no family or money. So, rather than being forced to risk life on the street, they can come here and live as monastic nuns, training to become lamas, which is a very good “career path” in that part of the world. So, there are a lot of reasons to be monastic.
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Brunelleschi
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Re: What is the motivation for Tibetan Buddhists to join the monastics?

Post by Brunelleschi »

Nalanda wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 11:46 amThat to me sounds like it IS a path of renunciation then. Right?
In my view, yes 100%.
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heart
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Re: What is the motivation for Tibetan Buddhists to join the monastics?

Post by heart »

Nalanda wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 11:50 am Won't the consort practice (even mental) be in conflict with the vinaya vow around keeping the thoughts pure from sexual contact?
No, why would it?

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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Re: What is the motivation for Tibetan Buddhists to join the monastics?

Post by zerwe »

Nalanda wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 11:46 am
Brunelleschi wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 10:00 am
Nalanda wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 6:41 am If the Mahasiddhas were not all monastics, and if Vajrayana is not a path of renunciation, and if great accomplishment in the path is open to lay Buddhists, then what is the motivation of young Tibetans to join the monkhood?
Hmmph, this is a misunderstanding. E.g., see Je Tsongkhapas text Three Principal Aspects of the Path (renunciation, bodhicitta and wisdom/insight).

Whilst lacking pure renunciation there is no way to pacify
The continual thirst for pleasure in the ocean of saṃsāra,
And since all living beings are bound by their craving for existence,
You must begin by finding the determination to be free.

The freedoms and advantages are rare, and there’s no time to waste—
Reflect on this again and yet again, and dispel attachment to this life.
To dispel attachment to your future lives, contemplate repeatedly
The unfailing effects of karma and the sufferings of saṃsāra.

When, through growing accustomed to thinking in this way,
Hope for the pleasures of saṃsāra no longer arises even for an instant,
And throughout both day and night you long for liberation,
Then, at that time, true renunciation has been born.


via: https://www.lotsawahouse.org/tibetan-ma ... al-aspects
That to me sounds like it IS a path of renunciation then. Right?
Lay or ordained, CEO or panhandler, renunciation takes place in the mind. The very same renunciation described at the level of sutra is considered vital to practice in the Vajrayana.

Without it, practice becomes another form of attachment for that of this life and future lives.

Shaun :namaste:
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Sādhaka
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Re: What is the motivation for Tibetan Buddhists to join the monastics?

Post by Sādhaka »

heart wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 3:43 pm
Nalanda wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 11:50 am Won't the consort practice (even mental) be in conflict with the vinaya vow around keeping the thoughts pure from sexual contact?
No, why would it?

/magnus
The Dalai Lama wrote:“In Tibetan Buddhism, especially if you notice the iconography of deities and their consorts, you can see a lot of explicit sexual symbols which often creates a false impression. In fact, in this case, the sexual organ is utilized, but the energy movement which is taking place is, in the end, fully controlled.

“The energy should never be let out. This energy must be controlled and eventually returned to other parts of the body. It is necessary for the Tantra practitioner to develop the ability to use their faculties of delight and ecstatic experiences that are specifically generated by the flow of regenerative fluid in his own channels of energy. It is crucial to have the ability to protect ourselves from the error of ejaculation. This is not just an ordinary sexual act.

“And here we can see there is a kind of special connection with celibacy.
Especially in the practice of "Kalachakra Tantra", this precept of protecting yourself against the loss of energy is considered very important.”

This seems to imply that the monastic vows can be retained (no pun intended) in this way.

If there is going to be ‘release’ for having offspring or any other reason, I think that one is supposed to turn in their monastic vows before doing so.

Also I believe that the Kalacakra says that being a Monk-Yogi is superior to being only a Yogi.

But this all seems to be according to the Kalacahakra system. Other Tantras may have different emphases.
Last edited by Sādhaka on Sun Jan 09, 2022 4:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Malcolm
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Re: What is the motivation for Tibetan Buddhists to join the monastics?

Post by Malcolm »

zerwe wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 3:51 pm
Lay or ordained, CEO or panhandler, renunciation takes place in the mind. The very same renunciation described at the level of sutra is considered vital to practice in the Vajrayana.

Without it, practice becomes another form of attachment for that of this life and future lives.
What is being renounced here is samsara. But in Vajrayāna, one does not renounce pleasures of the senses because it is a path of transformation, not a path of renunciation. This is why we have yogas of eating, washing, passion, etc.
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Re: What is the motivation for Tibetan Buddhists to join the monastics?

Post by Sādhaka »

I should have added the following part of the above quote to my above post as well:

The Dalai Lama wrote:”To me, when Buddha took the celibacy vow, at that level he did not explain all the reasons behind that rule or that discipline. The complete explanation comes when we know the Tantrayana system.”
Last edited by Sādhaka on Sun Jan 09, 2022 6:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Damchö_Dorje
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Re: What is the motivation for Tibetan Buddhists to join the monastics?

Post by Damchö_Dorje »

Malcolm wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 5:59 pm
zerwe wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 3:51 pm
Lay or ordained, CEO or panhandler, renunciation takes place in the mind. The very same renunciation described at the level of sutra is considered vital to practice in the Vajrayana.

Without it, practice becomes another form of attachment for that of this life and future lives.
What is being renounced here is samsara. But in Vajrayāna, one does not renounce pleasures of the senses because it is a path of transformation, not a path of renunciation. This is why we have yogas of eating, washing, passion, etc.
Is there anything we renounce in Vajrayana? Like anger? If a person is predisposed to negativities instead of what's positive, does that get transformed as well?
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Re: What is the motivation for Tibetan Buddhists to join the monastics?

Post by Malcolm »

Damchö_Dorje wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 6:27 pm Is there anything we renounce in Vajrayana? Like anger? If a person is predisposed to negativities instead of what's positive, does that get transformed as well?
Yes.
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Re: What is the motivation for Tibetan Buddhists to join the monastics?

Post by zerwe »

Malcolm wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 5:59 pm
zerwe wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 3:51 pm
Lay or ordained, CEO or panhandler, renunciation takes place in the mind. The very same renunciation described at the level of sutra is considered vital to practice in the Vajrayana.

Without it, practice becomes another form of attachment for that of this life and future lives.
What is being renounced here is samsara. But in Vajrayāna, one does not renounce pleasures of the senses because it is a path of transformation, not a path of renunciation. This is why we have yogas of eating, washing, passion, etc.
Yes, but it would seem that too often we have people who forget fundamentally what is being renounced and where or how this is taking place.

Shaun :namaste:
Malcolm
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Re: What is the motivation for Tibetan Buddhists to join the monastics?

Post by Malcolm »

zerwe wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 6:56 pm
Yes, but it would seem that too often we have people who forget fundamentally what is being renounced and where or how this is taking place.
Hence the word "practice." Renunciation cannot be contrived. It is a realization, not a rule.
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Re: What is the motivation for Tibetan Buddhists to join the monastics?

Post by zerwe »

Malcolm wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 7:06 pm
zerwe wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 6:56 pm
Yes, but it would seem that too often we have people who forget fundamentally what is being renounced and where or how this is taking place.
Hence the word "practice." Renunciation cannot be contrived. It is a realization, not a rule.
:cheers: :thumbsup:
Nalanda
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Re: What is the motivation for Tibetan Buddhists to join the monastics?

Post by Nalanda »

What does that mean? It is wrong to renounce deliberately? It must be a natural renunciation? How does that even work?

Also, I said "Vajrayana is not a path of renunciation" because I often read it here. On DharmaWheel from Malcolm. And even in this very thread.

Malcolm: What is being renounced here is samsara. But in Vajrayāna, one does not renounce pleasures of the senses because it is a path of transformation, not a path of renunciation. This is why we have yogas of eating, washing, passion, etc.

So we're back to it being not a path of renunciation, which is what I've always thought.
IF YOU PRACTICE WITH A STRONG BELIEF IN WHAT
YOU ARE DOING, THEN THERE IS NO LIMIT TO WHAT
YOU CAN ACCOMPLISH WITH YOUR PRACTICE.

CHAKUNG JIGME WANGDRAK RINPOCHE

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