Samaya, Teacher Behavior, and Practices

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Ikkyu's_Son
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Samaya, Teacher Behavior, and Practices

Post by Ikkyu's_Son »

Good evening all!

So this question stems from another thread, but wanted to carry it over to its own thread to see the thoughts of others on the matter. To quote the member zerwe

"
In reading this thread one question does come to mind. If you politely step away from said teacher, then should you no longer engage in the practices you have received?
This wasn't the topic of the original thread, but it was (in my opinion) a very good question.

In other words, if a teacher you had samaya with either commits harmful acts (convicted, not just allegations) or for whatever reason you choose to move on in your practice, would you (or are you even) allowed to continue practices that said teacher gave empowerments for, or do you stop those practices as well until finding a new root teacher?

As a follow up question, can one even renounce samaya once taken, such as if one no longer wishes to continue in Buddhist teachings? In areas such as these, what constitutes (or doesn't) the breaking of such samaya?
zerwe
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Re: Samaya, Teacher Behavior, and Practices

Post by zerwe »

Gaden_Wangchuk wrote: Thu Dec 30, 2021 6:19 am Good evening all!

So this question stems from another thread, but wanted to carry it over to its own thread to see the thoughts of others on the matter. To quote the member zerwe

"
In reading this thread one question does come to mind. If you politely step away from said teacher, then should you no longer engage in the practices you have received?
This wasn't the topic of the original thread, but it was (in my opinion) a very good question.

In other words, if a teacher you had samaya with either commits harmful acts (convicted, not just allegations) or for whatever reason you choose to move on in your practice, would you (or are you even) allowed to continue practices that said teacher gave empowerments for, or do you stop those practices as well until finding a new root teacher?

As a follow up question, can one even renounce samaya once taken, such as if one no longer wishes to continue in Buddhist teachings? In areas such as these, what constitutes (or doesn't) the breaking of such samaya?
Pardon my lack of ability to quote between threads.

Malcolm did answer this in the previous thread, but perhaps there is more to discuss.

https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=79&t=38773

zerwe wrote: ↑Sat Dec 18, 2021 8:54 am

"In reading this thread one question does come to mind. If you politely step away from said teacher, then should you no longer engage in the practices you have received?"

Malcolm--
"Generally, unless you have received them from other teachers as well, in whom you have faith and confidence."

Shaun :namaste:
Ikkyu's_Son
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Re: Samaya, Teacher Behavior, and Practices

Post by Ikkyu's_Son »

zerwe wrote: Thu Dec 30, 2021 3:12 pm
Pardon my lack of ability to quote between threads.

Malcolm did answer this in the previous thread, but perhaps there is more to discuss.

https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=79&t=38773

zerwe wrote: ↑Sat Dec 18, 2021 8:54 am

"In reading this thread one question does come to mind. If you politely step away from said teacher, then should you no longer engage in the practices you have received?"

Malcolm--
"Generally, unless you have received them from other teachers as well, in whom you have faith and confidence."

Shaun :namaste:

Ah, thank you for pointing that out, as I completely missed that when going through the thread again!

That being said, I am newer around here and it seems Malcolm may be the most experienced practitioner and his words carry much earned weight, but I do want to see if there are any others who have been taught differently or have a different perspective.
zerwe
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Re: Samaya, Teacher Behavior, and Practices

Post by zerwe »

When real abuse is involved I believe the person should step away. This would be keeping in HHDL's advice and the advice of other masters who support this stance.

I don't have the scriptural support to quote, but an approach that I have been made aware of is that, rather allowing one's view to become a perception of "the guru's misbehavior" (if it is within your capacity) you should see this as a means of teaching on how you should not behave. Also, the perceived behavior should be thought of as a means of revealing what capacity for said behavior dwells within one's own mind (and is manifest as a projection) and not that of the guru.

This is all very delicate territory and as many point out is the precise reason why the teacher should be thoroughly examined before entering into such a relationship.

Shaun :namaste:
PeterC
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Re: Samaya, Teacher Behavior, and Practices

Post by PeterC »

If one cannot maintain pure perception of the guru - or best efforts towards that - then one’s practice won’t produce results. So if you really have separated from a teacher, then there isn’t much point in persisting with practices you only received from him/her, just do vajrasattva instead.

But, OP - you really don’t have anything except hearsay as a basis for assessing this teacher. It may be best to suspend judgement until you have seen him a bit more closely. It is very, very hard to assess a teacher at a distance.
Terma
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Re: Samaya, Teacher Behavior, and Practices

Post by Terma »

I think PeterC mentioned the key point in the post above. Pure perception is the very basis of Vajrayana.

In fact, I think it is a crucial question to oneself before taking samaya with a teacher, which is:

"Am I able to maintain pure perception of this teacher from this point onwards?"

I think too many people neglect this question when they rush into a samaya relationship with a teacher. For sure we need to examine very closely the qualities of a teacher, but I think we should also examine our own qualities as a student in this way.
zerwe
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Re: Samaya, Teacher Behavior, and Practices

Post by zerwe »

Terma wrote: Thu Dec 30, 2021 5:10 pm
"Am I able to maintain pure perception of this teacher from this point onwards?"

I think too many people neglect this question when they rush into a samaya relationship with a teacher. For sure we need to examine very closely the qualities of a teacher, but I think we should also examine our own qualities as a student in this way.
I agree. I think this, and other things, are neglected when entering into a relationship with a teacher. In addition to rushing into receiving empowerments and not examining the teacher, I fear that too many people lack the capacity to make an accurate assessment of what they are capable of in terms of view, practice, etc...

Shaun :namaste:
Ikkyu's_Son
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Re: Samaya, Teacher Behavior, and Practices

Post by Ikkyu's_Son »

PeterC wrote: Thu Dec 30, 2021 4:23 pm But, OP - you really don’t have anything except hearsay as a basis for assessing this teacher. It may be best to suspend judgement until you have seen him a bit more closely. It is very, very hard to assess a teacher at a distance.
I should have been more clear in my thread opener, this is not about the teacher in question from that thread.

I pulled the question separately as I thought it was a very good question.
PeterC
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Re: Samaya, Teacher Behavior, and Practices

Post by PeterC »

Gaden_Wangchuk wrote: Thu Dec 30, 2021 7:46 pm
PeterC wrote: Thu Dec 30, 2021 4:23 pm But, OP - you really don’t have anything except hearsay as a basis for assessing this teacher. It may be best to suspend judgement until you have seen him a bit more closely. It is very, very hard to assess a teacher at a distance.
I should have been more clear in my thread opener, this is not about the teacher in question from that thread.
Since it sounds like you don’t have any other lamas, it sort of is, however much you try to make it a hypothetical question
Ikkyu's_Son
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Re: Samaya, Teacher Behavior, and Practices

Post by Ikkyu's_Son »

PeterC wrote: Fri Dec 31, 2021 1:21 am Since it sounds like you don’t have any other lamas, it sort of is, however much you try to make it a hypothetical question
It genuinely isn't. I thought it was a good question and was curious. If I appeared terse in my quoting of you, that wasn't the intention but I didn't want people answering based off of that assumption.

That being said, that's the end of that, and hopefully some others offer their insights without coming from that base.
PeterC
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Re: Samaya, Teacher Behavior, and Practices

Post by PeterC »

Gaden_Wangchuk wrote: Fri Dec 31, 2021 5:22 am
PeterC wrote: Fri Dec 31, 2021 1:21 am Since it sounds like you don’t have any other lamas, it sort of is, however much you try to make it a hypothetical question
It genuinely isn't. I thought it was a good question and was curious. If I appeared terse in my quoting of you, that wasn't the intention but I didn't want people answering based off of that assumption.

That being said, that's the end of that, and hopefully some others offer their insights without coming from that base.
You’re going to tell people how you want your questions answered - on this site?

:rolling:
Ikkyu's_Son
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Re: Samaya, Teacher Behavior, and Practices

Post by Ikkyu's_Son »

PeterC wrote: Fri Dec 31, 2021 5:36 am You’re going to tell people how you want your questions answered - on this site?

:rolling:
Not telling people how I want a question answered, but rather clarifying where I am not coming from so that they don't approach it with that bias.

I can see you're having a hard time with this for some reason, so I am ending my interaction with you on this matter here, and will not respond to any further posts from you on this topic.*

*So as to avoid any further misunderstanding*

Thank you. :anjali:
Last edited by Ikkyu's_Son on Fri Dec 31, 2021 6:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
PeterC
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Re: Samaya, Teacher Behavior, and Practices

Post by PeterC »

Gaden_Wangchuk wrote: Fri Dec 31, 2021 6:30 am
PeterC wrote: Fri Dec 31, 2021 5:36 am You’re going to tell people how you want your questions answered - on this site?

:rolling:
Not telling people how I want a question answered, but rather clarifying where I am not coming from so that they don't approach it with that bias.
That's a...distinction without a difference.
I can see you're having a hard time with this for some reason, so I am ending my interaction with you on this matter here, and will not respond to any further posts from you on this topic.

Thank you. :anjali:
Hang out here a bit longer and you will understand my point. Perhaps.
Mandakini
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Re: Samaya, Teacher Behavior, and Practices

Post by Mandakini »

I was in similar situation to you and my ex-teacher told me not to continue doing the practices, however, he had changed his mind and later called me to say that I should have not listened to him and should have continued doing the Ngondro and practices I was given anyway.

So I have continued doing the Ngondro and practices I had been given, and something beautiful has now come from it - I lost my original teacher, however, my connection with the deities has now increased drastically. It's like they are with me more than ever and they have taken place of my original teacher.
Set the aspiration for the deities you are connecting with to build a stronger connection with you and to guide you. You can also ask them questions and they will answer you if you are open to it and sit for mediation during that time.

Also set the aspiration for a new guru to come into your life who is better suited for you. The aspirations work if you believe it will - remember what's external of you is a reflection of what is internal.

Best of luck with your practice! May you never give up and achieve liberation!
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