Some Observation on the Guru-Chela Relationship by Tulku Sherdor

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pemachophel
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Some Observation on the Guru-Chela Relationship by Tulku Sherdor

Post by pemachophel »

CRUMB 208: DEALING WITH YOUR GURU

The Guru’s job is to mature, heal, and free you... not to please you all the time!
In his famous prayer of calling out to the Guru, called “Driving the Stake of Devotion into One’s Heart,” Jamgon Kongtrul Lodro Thaye says,
"We inevitably forget the Guru's kindness in giving profound teachings.
We get fed up whenever the Guru won't indulge us.

The Guru's enlightened deeds and conduct are obscured by our doubts and wrong views."
I think about this stanza often. It shines a sanitizing ray of light on a common infection tainting the relationship between Vajrayana dharma teachers and students: students want to decide what the teacher teaches, and whether the teacher is doing his job properly.
I am not speaking of examining the qualifications and qualities of a teacher ex ante; nor am I suggesting that it is in any way improper for a student to request a particular teaching or practice.

I am thinking, rather, of how the relationship with a Vajrayana Guru should unfold, after a student has decided to follow her or him. **
It seems to me that the relationship cannot fulfill its purpose if the student retains the prerogative to pick and choose, and switch teachers and teachings according to his own pleasure, predilection, and design, like a college major and curriculum.
Many students repeatedly change their minds about what they want to study in school, and thus treat Gurus the same way. The role of a Guru, moreover, fundamentally is about more, and something other, than helping students meet all the formal prerequisites for graduating from Dharma University.

In American colleges, students provide feedback and course reviews, and professors are evaluated according to whether their instructions were to the students’ satisfaction. When a course is completed, the student simply moves on to a different teacher. The teachers really have no say in when their work is done, so long as the students ‘pass’ the formal requirements of a course.

A Guru is not such a teacher who has to teach the way you prefer, according to your expectations, your likes and dislikes, and a pre-defined course syllabus and duration; rather, as expressed so beautifully by the Buddha in Professing The Qualities of Mañjuśrī, the Guru is a:

"Teacher of the world's finest arts,
(a) fearless ācārya of the world,
beloved defender of the world,
peerless refuge and protector
whose experience spans the ends of space,
the sea of omniscient wisdom
that cracks open the shell of ignorance,
(the) destroyer of the web of the phenomenal world
who pacifies each and every afflictive mind state,
has gone to the far shore of samsāra's ocean,
wears the diadem of wisdom empowerment
and carries the gems of the perfect Buddhas,
and eases the suffering of threefold suffering."

Or as Jamgon Kongtrul the Great says in the same prayer to the Guru,

"Transmission and treasure lineage Gurus, hear us.
Behold us from the expanse of integrated wisdom.
Break into the dark dungeon of our mental confusion,
and make the sun of realization shine right in."

This stanza goes right to the point: so long as a student remains, to any degree, trapped in the dark dungeon of mental confusion, in the prison of conceptuality, locked in the iron chains of dualistic grasping and fixation, she lacks the expansive frame of reference to know perfectly what is best for her education at every step along the path. That is precisely the responsibility of the qualified Guru—in close consultation with, but never at the beck and call of, the student.

Yes, of course, you can learn different ‘material’ from different teachers, and there are blessings to be had from different transmissions, lineages, and practices. A good Guru will direct you to other teachers when and where appropriate to receive those.

But, as a dharma student and practitioner, you don’t collect teachings and teachers like rare coins or baseball cards, trying to complete the set and upgrade your pedigree. *** You don’t discard a teacher when the romance has worn off, like a dull and predictable lover. You shouldn’t base your devotion and service upon getting what you want, and only what you want, from your Guru.

It is so easy, and so tempting, for a modern dharma student to feel most qualified and best-situated to decide what and how to practice. But that is a habit transferred from other domains of life experience.

The authoritative treatises written by great masters of the past, which describe exactly how to measure one’s progress, and how to rely on the teacher’s greater experience, knowledge, wisdom, and compassionate skill, are studied today by almost no one.
I see, again and again, teachers put in the position of having to cater, if not pander, to students, or risk losing them before the latter even understand what is at stake, and how to proceed along the path. The tested and true tradition of giving students only what they need, whether or not they want it, or know to ask for it, is almost extinct.

It is in the nature of being a dharma student that we bring our biases, habits, preferences, and character flaws into the relationship with our Guru. Becoming a better dharma student, however, is one of the primary lessons we are to derive from that relationship.

The point of the relationship, in other words, is to allow the Guru to work her ‘magic’ on us by allowing her to expose and treat these hidden flaws and faults, using expedient and time-tested methods of her own device, and not for the students to simply and stubbornly apply their biases, habits, and preferences to the relationship itself, to negotiate the same types of deals and compromises with the Guru as the students have done with everyone else in their lives, to get what they want and avoid what they do not.

Making deals with the Guru is a deal-breaker. In fact, the terms of the relationship are non-negotiable. Cutting deals with the Guru won’t work; it won’t get us what we ultimately want, and to where we ultimately want to go, which is liberation from our own egoistic schemes and plans.
My precious Gurus, including Dungsay Thinley Norbu Rinpoche, Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche, Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche, and of course Orgyen Kusum Lingpa, among others, at times treated me or spoke to me in terms that only could have been seen as cold, cruel, and abusive, were I to have regarded these instances as other than for the sole purpose of exposing and purifying my faults, and skillfully and compassionately helping me see things to which I previously had been blind.

I say this candidly, without pride or subterfuge, and without exaggeration, either. It was always the right decision to hold these great masters in faith and pure perception, no matter what.

One of these Gurus, for example (and not the one you likely would suspect) once ridiculed me publicly by calling me lig pa dzin pa, a close homonym for rig pa dzin pa (vidyadhara), but which means ‘testicle grabber.’ This same Guru also once slapped my testicles painfully from behind, in a shrine room filled with hundreds of solemn practitioners. Neither of these occasions put the slightest dent in my devotion.

This is what is required of a genuine Vajrayana practitioner, whether you like it or not—because liking it or not is entirely not the point.
Speaking as a teacher, now, one who has tried his best to guide students for more than three decades, the pain of watching a longtime student who should know better making the tragic mistake of relinquishing a sacred bond of teacher-student trust built up over many years is greater than any painful lesson to which any of my teachers ever subjected me, by several orders of magnitude, because it is a pain born of unwavering compassion.
For a teacher, being a helpless witness to such obtuseness in students who should know better is a pain that burns with the fire of compassion. The magnitude of the student's loss in that situation is tragic beyond compare, you see.

Notes:

** This Crumb also is not about how the student should respond when she comes to the virtually unavoidable conclusion that her Guru is a sociopath or scoundrel cleverly disguised as a qualified Master—a situation in which I and many others have found ourselves at some point. That topic has been exhaustively addressed elsewhere, by me and many other commentators.

*** Unless you are specifically charged with preserving the dharma, as was true of many lineage holders during the Tibetan diaspora of the 1960s and 1970s; that is a different matter.
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ
Malcolm
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Re: Some Observation on the Guru-Chela Relationship by Tulku Sherdor

Post by Malcolm »

I see, again and again, teachers put in the position of having to cater, if not pander, to students, or risk losing them
That's only a problem for teachers who want an ever-expanding retinue.

A real teacher only needs a few good students. Not hundreds or thousands of slackers.
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nyonchung
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Re: Some Observation on the Guru-Chela Relationship by Tulku Sherdor

Post by nyonchung »

Malcolm wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 10:00 pm
I see, again and again, teachers put in the position of having to cater, if not pander, to students, or risk losing them
That's only a problem for teachers who want an ever-expanding retinue.

A real teacher only needs a few good students. Not hundreds or thousands of slackers.
Oh, "She", so, in French, sounds more like "dépit amoureux" wrapped in highly inspiring quotes.
Never saw any of my teachers or excellent teachers I met, "cater if not pander", and they had plenty of disciples (including good students and slackers of my kind)
"Me and the sky don't hold views - Me and the river have no fixed practice
Me and the madman don't have a guide- Me and the rainbow have no experiences
Me, the sun and the moon have no certitudes - Me and the jewel bear no fruit" - Dampa Sanggyé as quoted by Domar Mingyur Dorjé (born 1675)
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Matt J
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Re: Some Observation on the Guru-Chela Relationship by Tulku Sherdor

Post by Matt J »

These are the types of arguments and preambles I expect and often hear from teachers who end up abusing their students.
"The world is made of stories, not atoms."
--- Muriel Rukeyser
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nyonchung
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Re: Some Observation on the Guru-Chela Relationship by Tulku Sherdor

Post by nyonchung »

Matt J wrote: Sat Dec 11, 2021 7:14 pm These are the types of arguments and preambles I expect and often hear from teachers who end up abusing their students.
I made the point somewhere else that sometimes also, students abuse teachers, this to say that I'm not systematically on the"victimizing" side and that there was anyway in 70/80's a great level of cultural misunderstandings between Westerners (and this is different cultures) and their Tibetan teachers - and I can see it still exist ...
But here we have a Western Tulku, no?
Strange
The strangest seems to make the thing public ... to preempt some incoming problems? Whatever the intention, that's how it sounds.
"Me and the sky don't hold views - Me and the river have no fixed practice
Me and the madman don't have a guide- Me and the rainbow have no experiences
Me, the sun and the moon have no certitudes - Me and the jewel bear no fruit" - Dampa Sanggyé as quoted by Domar Mingyur Dorjé (born 1675)
Charlie123
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Re: Some Observation on the Guru-Chela Relationship by Tulku Sherdor

Post by Charlie123 »

nyonchung and Matt J,

You two are entirely off base. Tulku Sherdor is a good, upright lama.
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Re: Some Observation on the Guru-Chela Relationship by Tulku Sherdor

Post by Charlie123 »

nyonchung,

This is an excerpt from a book that Tulku Sherdor wrote over many years. It is not a press statement.
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nyonchung
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Re: Some Observation on the Guru-Chela Relationship by Tulku Sherdor

Post by nyonchung »

Charlie123 wrote: Sat Dec 11, 2021 8:01 pm nyonchung,

This is an excerpt from a book that Tulku Sherdor wrote over many years. It is not a press statement.
Eventhough ...
This is making public, in a one-sided way, something belonging to the private sphere, with elements making possible the identification of the "she" by people gravitating around the Incarnation.
Plus, I will use a French word again, but is he not born in Montréal?, it's about "états d'âme", and making public one's "états d' âme" ("mood" might do but the connotations are different) as a responsible teacher, specially after obviously beeing p. off by a (female) student "of 30 years".
The Incarnation is born 1961, we're in 2021, if the book is "many" years old, and the guru-chela relationship was then some 30 years old, so already by somewhere around 1985 the Incarnation was already considering himself a vajra master?
Why not.
This is enough to make relatively experienced people feel uneasy.

BTW, if it's from a book, mention must be done, note to moderators, in UK (specially) and France, this is copyright infringement on an electronic media
If permisson granted, must be mentioned :spy:
"Me and the sky don't hold views - Me and the river have no fixed practice
Me and the madman don't have a guide- Me and the rainbow have no experiences
Me, the sun and the moon have no certitudes - Me and the jewel bear no fruit" - Dampa Sanggyé as quoted by Domar Mingyur Dorjé (born 1675)
Charlie123
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Re: Some Observation on the Guru-Chela Relationship by Tulku Sherdor

Post by Charlie123 »

nyonchung wrote: Sat Dec 11, 2021 8:55 pm
Charlie123 wrote: Sat Dec 11, 2021 8:01 pm nyonchung,

This is an excerpt from a book that Tulku Sherdor wrote over many years. It is not a press statement.
Eventhough ...
This is making public, in a one-sided way, something belonging to the private sphere, with elements making possible the identification of the "she" by people gravitating around the Incarnation.
Plus, I will use a French word again, but is he not born in Montréal?, it's about "états d'âme", and making public one's "états d' âme" ("mood" might do but the connotations are different) as a responsible teacher, specially after obviously beeing p. off by a (female) student "of 30 years".
The Incarnation is born 1961, we're in 2021, if the book is "many" years old, and the guru-chela relationship was then some 30 years old, so already by somewhere around 1985 the Incarnation was already considering himself a vajra master?
Why not.
This is enough to make relatively experienced people feel uneasy.

BTW, if it's from a book, mention must be done, note to moderators, in UK (specially) and France, this is copyright infringement on an electronic media
If permisson granted, must be mentioned :spy:
I am having a hard time understanding what you are saying here. I know you are not a native English speaker, but this is just not very clear.
GrapeLover
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Re: Some Observation on the Guru-Chela Relationship by Tulku Sherdor

Post by GrapeLover »

nyonchung wrote: Sat Dec 11, 2021 8:55 pm This is making public, in a one-sided way, something belonging to the private sphere, with elements making possible the identification of the "she" by people gravitating around the Incarnation.
Plus, I will use a French word again, but is he not born in Montréal?, it's about "états d'âme", and making public one's "états d' âme" ("mood" might do but the connotations are different) as a responsible teacher, specially after obviously beeing p. off by a (female) student "of 30 years".
I think you are reading far too much into the use of "she" as a generic pronoun. There is nothing remotely personal or identifying about what he says about the "she", or anything that ties his later mention of being a teacher for 30 years to some specific relationship with a female student. He uses "she" as a referent to hypothetical people throughout his writings—as a random example:
You simply can’t tell for sure what the conduct of another practitioner indicates about her level of spiritual practice—even if she eats meat. But you must be very sure about what eating meat means for you.
It's just a stylistic choice.

The things he says:
This stanza goes right to the point: so long as a student remains, to any degree, trapped in the dark dungeon of mental confusion, in the prison of conceptuality, locked in the iron chains of dualistic grasping and fixation, she lacks the expansive frame of reference to know perfectly what is best for her education at every step along the path. That is precisely the responsibility of the qualified Guru—in close consultation with, but never at the beck and call of, the student.
and
This Crumb also is not about how the student should respond when she comes to the virtually unavoidable conclusion that her Guru is a sociopath or scoundrel cleverly disguised as a qualified Master—a situation in which I and many others have found ourselves at some point. That topic has been exhaustively addressed elsewhere, by me and many other commentators.
are totally generic comments.
BTW, if it's from a book, mention must be done, note to moderators, in UK (specially) and France, this is copyright infringement on an electronic media
If permisson granted, must be mentioned :spy:
This piece was published openly on Facebook.
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Matt J
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Re: Some Observation on the Guru-Chela Relationship by Tulku Sherdor

Post by Matt J »

He's saying you shouldn't question the guru, no matter what they do. The example he cites includes slapping genitalia.
One of these Gurus, for example (and not the one you likely would suspect) once ridiculed me publicly by calling me lig pa dzin pa, a close homonym for rig pa dzin pa (vidyadhara), but which means ‘testicle grabber.’ This same Guru also once slapped my testicles painfully from behind, in a shrine room filled with hundreds of solemn practitioners. Neither of these occasions put the slightest dent in my devotion.

This is what is required of a genuine Vajrayana practitioner, whether you like it or not—because liking it or not is entirely not the point.
This is the exact kind of mentality that has led to the propagation of gurus abusing students in the West (in the East, too, from what I hear). This sort of "don't question the guru" is typically behind many modern scandals in both Zen and Vajrayana.

Basically, he's saying, as a teacher, students shouldn't question him or other teachers even if they do something outrageous like grab your genitals, and to do so means you're not a genuine Vajrayana practitioner. Sorry, red flag in my book.

Consider Mingyur Rinpoche on this:

“Many students of Tibetan Buddhism mistakenly think that they cannot, or should not, leave a teacher once they’ve made a commitment to them. This is not the case. The whole point of the teacher–student relationship is that it should benefit the student. It is not for the teacher’s gain or profit. If you have tried your best and have found that it is not a good fit, you can look for another teacher. This is not a problem or personal failing. It is good judgment.”

and for serious issues:

“In that case, the violation of ethical norms needs to be addressed. If physical or sexual abuse has occurred, or there is financial impropriety or other breaches of ethics, it is in the best interest of the students, the community, and ultimately the teacher, to address the issues. Above all, if someone is being harmed, the safety of the victim comes first. This is not a Buddhist principle. This is a basic human value and should never be violated.”
Charlie123 wrote: Sat Dec 11, 2021 7:51 pm nyonchung and Matt J,

You two are entirely off base. Tulku Sherdor is a good, upright lama.
"The world is made of stories, not atoms."
--- Muriel Rukeyser
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Re: Some Observation on the Guru-Chela Relationship by Tulku Sherdor

Post by nyonchung »

Thanks to GrapeLover for "stylistic choice"
Literary speaking, the style is poor sorry

But I Read notes too:

note 2
"not about how the student should respond when she comes to the virtually unavoidable conclusion that her Guru is a sociopath or scoundrel cleverly disguised as a qualified Master"
- is that not a personnal reference? I doubt it

the thirty years my mistake = " now, one who has tried his best to guide students for more than three decades",not applying to the "she" of the note
- so evidence that since then he claims acting as a Vajra Master - am I wrong?

I'm not an English speaker, nevertheless:
"The point of the relationship, in other words, is to allow the Guru to work her ‘magic’ on us by allowing her to expose and treat these hidden flaws and faults, using expedient and time-tested methods of her own device, and not for the students to simply and stubbornly apply their biases, habits,..."
Was there in the text reference before to a female teacher?

Matt j. and I maybe offbase, but when one reads such stuff, warnings lights apply - I'm in Dharma since about the same time as Tulku Sherdor himself, and never heard a self respecting teacher getting in such a mood (regarding teachers I also spent some time in India and Nepal with notable ones of the Tibet-born generation) and this kind of diatribe is honestly beyond my understanding.

Otherwise, in UK in UE, when you quote a long part of any work, you have to specify the source and the permission if it goes behind a few lines quote ... and the UK is on its way to make everybody's life miserable (projects also in the UE, but will take years) since the website bears the responsability
Last edited by nyonchung on Sat Dec 11, 2021 10:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Me and the sky don't hold views - Me and the river have no fixed practice
Me and the madman don't have a guide- Me and the rainbow have no experiences
Me, the sun and the moon have no certitudes - Me and the jewel bear no fruit" - Dampa Sanggyé as quoted by Domar Mingyur Dorjé (born 1675)
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Re: Some Observation on the Guru-Chela Relationship by Tulku Sherdor

Post by Charlie123 »

Matt J wrote: Sat Dec 11, 2021 9:50 pm He's saying you shouldn't question the guru, no matter what they do.
Actually, he is explicitly not saying that. To qoute the OP:
** This Crumb also is not about how the student should respond when she comes to the virtually unavoidable conclusion that her Guru is a sociopath or scoundrel cleverly disguised as a qualified Master—a situation in which I and many others have found ourselves at some point. That topic has been exhaustively addressed elsewhere, by me and many other commentators.
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Re: Some Observation on the Guru-Chela Relationship by Tulku Sherdor

Post by Charlie123 »

DW mods, what’s up w/ the time limit between posts? no good IMO.
GrapeLover
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Re: Some Observation on the Guru-Chela Relationship by Tulku Sherdor

Post by GrapeLover »

nyonchung wrote: Sat Dec 11, 2021 10:01 pm "not about how the student should respond when she comes to the virtually unavoidable conclusion that her Guru is a sociopath or scoundrel cleverly disguised as a qualified Master"
- is that not a personnal reference? I doubt it
No? He's just trying to communicate that, if one comes to the unavoidable conclusion that one's Guru is a sociopath or scoundrel, then he is not saying that one should stick with them nonetheless. He phrases this in terms of "if a student comes to this conclusion, then she...". I'm not sure if you are just unfamiliar with the generic usage of feminine pronouns instead of masculine. It was considered somewhat progressive at one point.
the thirty years my mistake = " now, one who has tried his best to guide students for more than three decades",not applying to the "she" of the note
- so evidence that since then he claims acting as a Vajra Master - am I wrong?
Yes, no argument that he says he's been acting as a teacher (though not vajra master explicitly) for 30 years. I missed this when I first read it.
I'm not an English speaker, nevertheless:
"The point of the relationship, in other words, is to allow the Guru to work her ‘magic’ on us by allowing her to expose and treat these hidden flaws and faults, using expedient and time-tested methods of her own device, and not for the students to simply and stubbornly apply their biases, habits,..."
Was there in the text reference before to a female teacher?
No, this is another example of the generic feminine rather than the generic masculine being used in reference to the Guru.

To be clear I am not trying to defend the message as a whole or anything like that; I understand people's objections. I am purely noting that he is never actually referring to any specific woman, since that came up as a point of criticism.
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Re: Some Observation on the Guru-Chela Relationship by Tulku Sherdor

Post by nyonchung »

Charlie123 wrote: Sat Dec 11, 2021 10:06 pm
Matt J wrote: Sat Dec 11, 2021 9:50 pm He's saying you shouldn't question the guru, no matter what they do.
Actually, he is explicitly not saying that. To qoute the OP:
** This Crumb also is not about how the student should respond when she comes to the virtually unavoidable conclusion that her Guru is a sociopath or scoundrel cleverly disguised as a qualified Master—a situation in which I and many others have found ourselves at some point. That topic has been exhaustively addressed elsewhere, by me and many other commentators.
Great and on the spot: "she" and ending "by me".
I'm familiar with Tibetan masters since 1980 or so, but since longer with textual analysis techniques (structural) included, this page has a strong emotional background while using a quite classic rethoric structure (the "harangue" style) showing that the author has possibly a good classical background (French and Latin?)
Staring from line 1 "The Guru" sliding slowly to "Me! a guru! how people dare!" etc ...

So, yes he does say that explicitely since line 1, the whole argumentation is about this.

as for "he is never actually referring to any specific woman" are you in the know? since the whole structure is about this, somebody dared to go way ...
generic femenine for "guru"? most gurus female? why "another example"?

This is not criticism, this is stating the obvious ...
"Me and the sky don't hold views - Me and the river have no fixed practice
Me and the madman don't have a guide- Me and the rainbow have no experiences
Me, the sun and the moon have no certitudes - Me and the jewel bear no fruit" - Dampa Sanggyé as quoted by Domar Mingyur Dorjé (born 1675)
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Re: Some Observation on the Guru-Chela Relationship by Tulku Sherdor

Post by GrapeLover »

nyonchung wrote: Sat Dec 11, 2021 10:26 pm as for "he is never actually referring to any specific woman" are you in the know? since the whole structure is about this, somebody dared to go way ...
generic femenine for "guru"? most gurus female? why "another example"?

This is not criticism, this is stating the obvious ...
Here are a couple of quotes from another work of his, Entering The Great Expanse:
A teacher cannot spend her entire life just treading water with you on her shoulders, she has a lot of other beings to help too, and maybe even in other realms. So you have to remember again and again what you saw, and use that recollection as ongoing motivation to learn to tread water, swim, and then fly.
One of the hazards to guard against is becoming what is called drepo. Dre is a species of wild bear. Someone who is
drepo feels that she has heard it all before, and has done it all before. It is possible to feel that you have advanced greatly in practice, but not be watching and examining yourself carefully.
If you could never again read one word of a dharma text, the best thing you could possibly do is keep close company
with someone who has practiced well, and much more than you have, and stay as open and connected to that person’s state of mind as possible. Whatever degree of wisdom she possesses that you do not, to which you have not yet awakened, can filter or cut through the confusion or lack of wakefulness in your own mind.
The Guru freely and spontaneously can use every moment and every appearance to alert us to our own Buddha Nature, because the Guru’s awareness is nimble and unhindered by the drag of confused grasping and fixation. It is all open skies to the Guru—she has free rein.
Etc.

Yes, he uses the generic "she" and "her" for teachers and hypothetical individuals all the time. As noted, it is just an English stylistic choice.
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Re: Some Observation on the Guru-Chela Relationship by Tulku Sherdor

Post by Charlie123 »

nyonchung wrote: Sat Dec 11, 2021 10:26 pm
Charlie123 wrote: Sat Dec 11, 2021 10:06 pm
Matt J wrote: Sat Dec 11, 2021 9:50 pm He's saying you shouldn't question the guru, no matter what they do.
Actually, he is explicitly not saying that. To qoute the OP:
** This Crumb also is not about how the student should respond when she comes to the virtually unavoidable conclusion that her Guru is a sociopath or scoundrel cleverly disguised as a qualified Master—a situation in which I and many others have found ourselves at some point. That topic has been exhaustively addressed elsewhere, by me and many other commentators.
Great and on the spot: "she" and ending "by me".
I'm familiar with Tibetan masters since 1980 or so, but since longer with textual analysis techniques (structural) included, this page has a strong emotional background while using a quite classic rethoric structure (the "harangue" style) showing that the author has possibly a good classical background (French and Latin?)
Staring from line 1 "The Guru" sliding slowly to "Me! a guru! how people dare!" etc ...

So, yes he does say that explicitely since line 1, the whole argumentation is about this.

as for "he is never actually referring to any specific woman" are you in the know? since the whole structure is about this, somebody dared to go way ...
generic femenine for "guru"? most gurus female? why "another example"?

This is not criticism, this is stating the obvious ...
It is obvious to a native English speaker that he is writing generally and not about a specific “she”. You really are reading something in to this excerpt that is not present in the text itself.
Last edited by Charlie123 on Sat Dec 11, 2021 10:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Some Observation on the Guru-Chela Relationship by Tulku Sherdor

Post by nyonchung »

Since the US went ungrateful about us froggies for helping them to get free, since Canada refused to return Québec to us, we sent them French theory.
They will soon disappear in the throngs of total confusion. :lol:

You may think it's stylistic, but this is actually showing a poor understanding of grammatical structures, and of the functions of language, while simply submitting to present fashions.
Hard to combine with a style of eternal wisdom of sorts.
Last edited by nyonchung on Sat Dec 11, 2021 10:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Me and the sky don't hold views - Me and the river have no fixed practice
Me and the madman don't have a guide- Me and the rainbow have no experiences
Me, the sun and the moon have no certitudes - Me and the jewel bear no fruit" - Dampa Sanggyé as quoted by Domar Mingyur Dorjé (born 1675)
Charlie123
Posts: 415
Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:10 pm

Re: Some Observation on the Guru-Chela Relationship by Tulku Sherdor

Post by Charlie123 »

nyonchung wrote: Sat Dec 11, 2021 10:44 pm Since the US went ungrateful about us froggies for helping them to get free, since Canada refused to return Québec to us, we sent them French theory.
They will soon disappear in the throngs of total confusion. :lol:

You may think it's stylistic, but is actually a poor understanding of grammatical structures, and of the functions of languages.

I am sorry if I am coming off as an asshole, but you are clearly not 100% fluent in English. It is a little absurd for you to be arguing about this with native English speakers.

As for your earlier point about when Tulku Sherdor started teaching, by 1990, he had completed two three-year retreats in Kalu Rinpoche’s system. So, this means that he spent most of his 20’s in strict retreat. I do not know what capacity he was teaching in at this time.
Last edited by Charlie123 on Sat Dec 11, 2021 11:21 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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