Did we adopt Hindu/Indian deities and practices?
Did we adopt Hindu/Indian deities and practices?
Are the deities in Vajrayana (or Buddhism in general for that matter) an import from Hindu/Indian religions? For reference, there seems to be a discussion on this topic here, https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?t=8216 unfortunately, I don't understand as the posts (like those of Malcolm) are quite ....advanced? So perhaps you could point me in the right direction with answers or resources if Vajrayana deities are really Hindu deities.
And how do we counter those who say that Vajrayana is/was a Hindu/Shaivic cult? Like those mentioned in:
https://www.sundayguardianlive.com/cult ... ndu-ideals
And how do we counter those who say that Vajrayana is/was a Hindu/Shaivic cult? Like those mentioned in:
https://www.sundayguardianlive.com/cult ... ndu-ideals
IF YOU PRACTICE WITH A STRONG BELIEF IN WHAT
YOU ARE DOING, THEN THERE IS NO LIMIT TO WHAT
YOU CAN ACCOMPLISH WITH YOUR PRACTICE.
CHAKUNG JIGME WANGDRAK RINPOCHE
YOU ARE DOING, THEN THERE IS NO LIMIT TO WHAT
YOU CAN ACCOMPLISH WITH YOUR PRACTICE.
CHAKUNG JIGME WANGDRAK RINPOCHE
Re: Did we adopt Hindu/Indian deities and practices?
Buddhadharma and Bön would be from previous epochs (e.g. see: Kracucchanda, Kanakamuni, Vipasyin, etc.), whereas even though ‘Hinduism’ may have existed in some previous epochs, I doubt that it is primordial.
Although I guess you could argue that Sanata Dharma is primordial Dharma in that both Buddhadharma and ‘Hinduism’ are primordial, and just that primordial ‘Hinduism’ has been temporarily lost over the ages....
In any case, my point is that Buddhist deities aren’t an mere copy of ‘Hindu’ ones.
Although I guess you could argue that Sanata Dharma is primordial Dharma in that both Buddhadharma and ‘Hinduism’ are primordial, and just that primordial ‘Hinduism’ has been temporarily lost over the ages....
In any case, my point is that Buddhist deities aren’t an mere copy of ‘Hindu’ ones.
Last edited by Sādhaka on Fri Dec 03, 2021 4:13 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Did we adopt Hindu/Indian deities and practices?
A simpler way of looking at it is to say that Buddhism and Jainism emerged (at about the same time) from the Indian religious traditions from which Hinduism as such emerged much later.Sādhaka wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 4:07 am Buddhadharma and Bön would be from previous epochs (e.g. see: Kracucchanda, Kanakamuni, Vipasyin, etc.), whereas even though ‘Hinduism’ may have existed in some previous epochs, I doubt that it is primordial.
Although I guess you could argue that Sanata Dharma is primordial Dharma in that both Buddhadharma and ‘Hinduism’ are primordial, and just that primordial ‘Hinduism’ has been temporarily lost over the ages....
In any case, my point is that Buddhist deities aren’t an mere copy of ‘Hindu’ ones.
After that, all three of them borrowed from each other for centuries.
And, just to complicate Buddhism still more, when the Buddhadharma was carried to other countries it picked up bits of their indigenous traditions, notably Bon in Tibet.
There's nothing very special or surprising about any of that. Much the same happened with the Abrahamic religions. For instance, we're about to celebrate the birth of Jesus with 'Yuletide' symbolism borrowed from the Norse religion.
Kim
Re: Did we adopt Hindu/Indian deities and practices?
Kim O'Hara wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 5:27 amFor instance, we're about to celebrate the birth of Jesus with 'Yuletide' symbolism borrowed from the Norse religion.
Perhaps....
But I think that Dharma is a whole different ballgame.
I mean that even though an narrative may only be an narrative, I‘d personally prefer the narrative from the Dharmic texts themselves, over scholastic interpretations. Your mileage may vary.
That is, looking at things from the perspective of multiple epochs; rather than an limited spectrum or bandwidth so-to-speak, of our measly last couple thousand years or so up in this kali yuga
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Re: Did we adopt Hindu/Indian deities and practices?
It seems obvious that in general, the iconography in Vajrayana Buddhism reflects Indian iconography (even though there are different styles during different periods).
One could say “borrowed from” although that isn’t really accurate because it’s not so much a matter of one spiritual tradition borrowing from another, but rather that in general, the representations of religious deities in were expected to conform to certain expectations, including a symbolic visual vocabulary (such as standing on a lotus), just as we expect statues of important people to be poised on pedestals, for example. Or when you see old portraits of the rich and powerful, they all pretty much have the same seated pose, because that’s what people expect. It what people think a portrait is “supposed” to look like.
It’s not uncommon for cultural elements to become “assimilated” (which I think is a better term) from one religion into another. Most people don’t realize, for example, how much Aztec culture had been preserved via Christian symbolism. When you see images of Jesus in Mexican religious art, with his bloody heart exposed, there’s an historical reason for that, even if the original meaning has been lost in time.
But while the elements of depiction may be similar, the deities themselves are not the same.
Here is a picture of Laxshmi (left) and two-armed Avalokiteshvara (right).
One could say “borrowed from” although that isn’t really accurate because it’s not so much a matter of one spiritual tradition borrowing from another, but rather that in general, the representations of religious deities in were expected to conform to certain expectations, including a symbolic visual vocabulary (such as standing on a lotus), just as we expect statues of important people to be poised on pedestals, for example. Or when you see old portraits of the rich and powerful, they all pretty much have the same seated pose, because that’s what people expect. It what people think a portrait is “supposed” to look like.
It’s not uncommon for cultural elements to become “assimilated” (which I think is a better term) from one religion into another. Most people don’t realize, for example, how much Aztec culture had been preserved via Christian symbolism. When you see images of Jesus in Mexican religious art, with his bloody heart exposed, there’s an historical reason for that, even if the original meaning has been lost in time.
But while the elements of depiction may be similar, the deities themselves are not the same.
Here is a picture of Laxshmi (left) and two-armed Avalokiteshvara (right).
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Re: Did we adopt Hindu/Indian deities and practices?
Kim O'Hara wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 5:27 amFor instance, we're about to celebrate the birth of Jesus with 'Yuletide' symbolism borrowed from the Norse religion.
Perhaps....
But I think that Dharma is a whole different ballgame.
I mean that even though an narrative may only be an narrative, I‘d personally prefer the narrative from the Dharmic texts themselves, over scholastic interpretations. Your mileage may vary.
That is, looking at things from the perspective of multiple epochs; rather than an limited spectrum or bandwidth so-to-speak, of our measly last couple thousand years or so up in this kali yuga
Re: Did we adopt Hindu/Indian deities and practices?
Nobody borrowed anythjng from Hinduism, as it hasn’t been around for very long
Lots of traditions share common elements or features, particularly in iconography. But that doesn’t imply that one was the origin of the other.
Lots of traditions share common elements or features, particularly in iconography. But that doesn’t imply that one was the origin of the other.
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Re: Did we adopt Hindu/Indian deities and practices?
At this point I'm going to suggest that we're like the blind men describing the elephant.
Kim
Kim
Re: Did we adopt Hindu/Indian deities and practices?
Sādhaka wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 4:07 am Buddhadharma and Bön would be from previous epochs (e.g. see: Kracucchanda, Kanakamuni, Vipasyin, etc.), whereas even though ‘Hinduism’ may have existed in some previous epochs, I doubt that it is primordial.
Although I guess you could argue that Sanata Dharma is primordial Dharma in that both Buddhadharma and ‘Hinduism’ are primordial, and just that primordial ‘Hinduism’ has been temporarily lost over the ages....
In any case, my point is that Buddhist deities aren’t an mere copy of ‘Hindu’ ones.
*Sanatana Dharma
Last edited by Sādhaka on Fri Dec 03, 2021 5:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Did we adopt Hindu/Indian deities and practices?
i was with one Rinpoche and his monks visiting Cakrasamvara place.
whet we finally got there i was suprised to see that they start to do rounds around Shiva temple there mumbling Cakrasamvara mantra. there was no any other shrine. i asked Rinpoche how come is this Cakrasamvara place? have i happened there by myself i wouldn't be able to recognise anything buddhist there. there were just prayer flags. Rinpoche smiled and said he got no idea why, but when there is Shiva place, it is quite often Cakrasamvara place too..
whet we finally got there i was suprised to see that they start to do rounds around Shiva temple there mumbling Cakrasamvara mantra. there was no any other shrine. i asked Rinpoche how come is this Cakrasamvara place? have i happened there by myself i wouldn't be able to recognise anything buddhist there. there were just prayer flags. Rinpoche smiled and said he got no idea why, but when there is Shiva place, it is quite often Cakrasamvara place too..
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Re: Did we adopt Hindu/Indian deities and practices?
Yes, I remember this being reflected in Mipham Rinpoche's Wangdu prayer as well in which one of the figures could be either Mahadeva or Chakrasamvara. Oddly enough, according to one Lama, Mt. Kailash is viewed as the abode of Shiva for some locals while other locals view it as the abode of Chakrasamvara, so....yagmort wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 5:38 pm i was with one Rinpoche and his monks visiting Cakrasamvara place.
whet we finally got there i was suprised to see that they start to do rounds around Shiva temple there mumbling Cakrasamvara mantra. there was no any other shrine. i asked Rinpoche how come is this Cakrasamvara place? have i happened there by myself i wouldn't be able to recognise anything buddhist there. there were just prayer flags. Rinpoche smiled and said he got no idea why, but when there is Shiva place, it is quite often Cakrasamvara place too..
Also, Sarasvati most definitely had Vedic and Indo-European roots before being adopted into the Buddhist pantheon, yet she is considered an enlightened being, unlike Narayana or Parvati (and then there's the other discussion on whether Prthvi, the Mother Earth is enlightened or not, some viewing her as a worldly deity and others as a form of Vasudhara).
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Re: Did we adopt Hindu/Indian deities and practices?
Dudjom Tersar has Ganapati and Mahadeva practices. Some say Ganapati is a Buddha and Ganesha is how he is perceived by lesser realized Hindus. Same with Chakrasamvara and Shiva.yagmort wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 5:38 pm i was with one Rinpoche and his monks visiting Cakrasamvara place.
whet we finally got there i was suprised to see that they start to do rounds around Shiva temple there mumbling Cakrasamvara mantra. there was no any other shrine. i asked Rinpoche how come is this Cakrasamvara place? have i happened there by myself i wouldn't be able to recognise anything buddhist there. there were just prayer flags. Rinpoche smiled and said he got no idea why, but when there is Shiva place, it is quite often Cakrasamvara place too..
Re: Did we adopt Hindu/Indian deities and practices?
There’s also the perspective that enlightened beings take on the form of worldly deities to guide others to liberation alongside other forms as animals, humans, etc. Then there are the particular tantric Ganapati and Mahadeva forms that are emanations of Avalokiteshvara rather than their worldly counterparts.Arnoud wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 9:56 pmDudjom Tersar has Ganapati and Mahadeva practices. Some say Ganapati is a Buddha and Ganesha is how he is perceived by lesser realized Hindus. Same with Chakrasamvara and Shiva.yagmort wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 5:38 pm i was with one Rinpoche and his monks visiting Cakrasamvara place.
whet we finally got there i was suprised to see that they start to do rounds around Shiva temple there mumbling Cakrasamvara mantra. there was no any other shrine. i asked Rinpoche how come is this Cakrasamvara place? have i happened there by myself i wouldn't be able to recognise anything buddhist there. there were just prayer flags. Rinpoche smiled and said he got no idea why, but when there is Shiva place, it is quite often Cakrasamvara place too..
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔
Re: Did we adopt Hindu/Indian deities and practices?
All Shiva holy sites became Chakrasamvara holy sites due to the Buddha manifesting the Chakrasamvara mandala.yagmort wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 5:38 pm i was with one Rinpoche and his monks visiting Cakrasamvara place.
whet we finally got there i was suprised to see that they start to do rounds around Shiva temple there mumbling Cakrasamvara mantra. there was no any other shrine. i asked Rinpoche how come is this Cakrasamvara place? have i happened there by myself i wouldn't be able to recognise anything buddhist there. there were just prayer flags. Rinpoche smiled and said he got no idea why, but when there is Shiva place, it is quite often Cakrasamvara place too..
Re: Did we adopt Hindu/Indian deities and practices?
Hinduism is not really one religion, it is many very different religions. Also India, like Hinduism, wasn't really one country but rather many smaller countries. Both India and Hinduism are rather modern inventions. But if we accept those modern invention for a moment then we can absolutely say that Buddhism is an Indian religion, just like Jain by the way. So it isn't strange that there are similar cultural expressions like art in these manyfold religions from India. They come from the same cultural sphere. When we talk about the origin of Tantric Buddhism or Tantra in Hinduism it is rather difficult to separate fact from fiction mainly because early Western scholars almost all considered Tantric Buddhism a degeneration of the "real" Buddhism and of Hindu origin and this is showing quite clearly in your own questions above as well. However these days it slowly showing that the origin of all Tantra is quite old and seem to have developed in various religions on the "Indian" subcontinent simultaneously and these religions had a shared culture base. Many deities might also be older than the religions they where incorporated in.Nalanda wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:12 am Are the deities in Vajrayana (or Buddhism in general for that matter) an import from Hindu/Indian religions? For reference, there seems to be a discussion on this topic here, https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?t=8216 unfortunately, I don't understand as the posts (like those of Malcolm) are quite ....advanced? So perhaps you could point me in the right direction with answers or resources if Vajrayana deities are really Hindu deities.
And how do we counter those who say that Vajrayana is/was a Hindu/Shaivic cult? Like those mentioned in:
https://www.sundayguardianlive.com/cult ... ndu-ideals
/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
Re: Did we adopt Hindu/Indian deities and practices?
Yes. Buddhist literature literally acknowledges this. Vajrayana was taught to tame the four castes: Brahmanas, Kshatriyas, Vaishyas, and Shudras. All the trappings of Vajrayana minus Bodhicitta, emptiness, and insight exist in Hindu tantra.
This isn't a dirty secret that academics have discovered like some have made it out to be.
However this wasn't a one-way street. Buddhist tantra went on to influence Hindu tantra just as much.
This isn't a dirty secret that academics have discovered like some have made it out to be.
However this wasn't a one-way street. Buddhist tantra went on to influence Hindu tantra just as much.
Re: Did we adopt Hindu/Indian deities and practices?
No, they're notNalanda wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:12 am Are the deities in Vajrayana (or Buddhism in general for that matter) an import from Hindu/Indian religions? For reference, there seems to be a discussion on this topic here, https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?t=8216 unfortunately, I don't understand as the posts (like those of Malcolm) are quite ....advanced? So perhaps you could point me in the right direction with answers or resources if Vajrayana deities are really Hindu deities.
And how do we counter those who say that Vajrayana is/was a Hindu/Shaivic cult? Like those mentioned in:
https://www.sundayguardianlive.com/cult ... ndu-ideals
Alas, to counter such views (but is it necessary for you right now?) some in-depth study of the subject is necessary ... the basis is
- a - not all "Hindu" deities are related to tantrism
- b - "Hindu" is a relatively modern concept, and Vajrayana / Tantrayana is much older, not to mention Buddhism -
- c - both Shaiva (and less common Vaishnava, not to mention Jaina) and Buddhist tantrism all draw on a common pan-Indian / indic cultural, social and religious (add artsistic, medical and scientific) background, so there are similarities in some secondary aspects
- d - the background of Vajrayana is a Mayahanist philosophy pretty distinct of all non-Buddhist schools
that's all for today
"Me and the sky don't hold views - Me and the river have no fixed practice
Me and the madman don't have a guide- Me and the rainbow have no experiences
Me, the sun and the moon have no certitudes - Me and the jewel bear no fruit" - Dampa Sanggyé as quoted by Domar Mingyur Dorjé (born 1675)
Me and the madman don't have a guide- Me and the rainbow have no experiences
Me, the sun and the moon have no certitudes - Me and the jewel bear no fruit" - Dampa Sanggyé as quoted by Domar Mingyur Dorjé (born 1675)
Re: Did we adopt Hindu/Indian deities and practices?
BTW who is this "we"?
"Me and the sky don't hold views - Me and the river have no fixed practice
Me and the madman don't have a guide- Me and the rainbow have no experiences
Me, the sun and the moon have no certitudes - Me and the jewel bear no fruit" - Dampa Sanggyé as quoted by Domar Mingyur Dorjé (born 1675)
Me and the madman don't have a guide- Me and the rainbow have no experiences
Me, the sun and the moon have no certitudes - Me and the jewel bear no fruit" - Dampa Sanggyé as quoted by Domar Mingyur Dorjé (born 1675)
Re: Did we adopt Hindu/Indian deities and practices?
The Nyingma school quite literally exists because they initially rejected the Highest Yoga Tantras (and the concepts of bindus, nadis, and chakras presented therein) as Hindu innovations when they were first brought to Tibet.
They were correct in assuming that they were imported from Hindu literature.
They were correct in assuming that they were imported from Hindu literature.
"I have never encountered a person who committed bad deeds." ― Ven. Jìngkōng
Re: Did we adopt Hindu/Indian deities and practices?
There where no tsa/lung/tigle at all in India at the time of the older translations. So they certainly didn't reject it. In fact there was no defined "highest yoga tantra" either.Varis wrote: ↑Tue Dec 07, 2021 6:27 am The Nyingma school quite literally exists because they initially rejected the Highest Yoga Tantras (and the concepts of bindus, nadis, and chakras presented therein) as Hindu innovations when they were first brought to Tibet.
They were correct in assuming that they were imported from Hindu literature.
/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)