Comparison of Kagyu and Gelug schools?

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tobes
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Re: Comparison of Kagyu and Gelug schools?

Post by tobes »

lelopa wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 10:23 am
PeterC wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 2:50 am
tobes wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 1:25 am There is an ambiguity about what Tsong Khapa thought/practiced/transmitted with respect to DI-mahamudra.
Tsonkhapa is to Gelug as Marx is to Marxism. There’s what he wrote, and what people say it means.
Marxism/Leninism!
Tsongkhapism/Phabonkapism?
Ok, but it sounds strange.....
I like PeterC's analogy because the most intense critiques always come from people who have barely seen the front cover of Capital, let alone read it, let alone studied it (i.e. the critique is nothing more or less then the prior commitment to liberalism).
jmlee369
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Re: Comparison of Kagyu and Gelug schools?

Post by jmlee369 »

Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 9:24 pm Gelug emphasizes extensive general Mahayana and Sutrayana from the Kadam tradition before Vajrayana.

Kagyu emphasizes Vajrayana practices, in retreat when possible. General Mahayana and Sutrayana from the Kadam tradition do exist, but they don’t have the same emphasis.

Both have Sarma Tantras and the 6 Yogas of Naropa.
I'm not too sure about the heavy emphasis on general Mahayana and Sutrayana as a preliminary. It's true that monk-scholars at Drepung and Sera were not allowed to study tantra extensively while they were following the Geshe studies curriculum, and the two monasteries has tantric colleges separate from the scholastic colleges. However the tradition at Ganden was different from the beginning, as Je Tsongkhapa assigned different tantric cycles to different regional houses, as well as an overall emphasis on Guhyasamaja for Jangtse college, and 13 deity Vajrabhairava for Shartse college. It is also possible to receive the tantric Geshe Ngagrampa degree by studying at Jangtse college without having to go to either Gyuto or Gyume. Hence Ganden had no separate tantric college, and was known to practice a union of sutra and tantra.

Je Rinpoche himself viewed the transmission and preservation of proper highest yoga tantric practice as one of his main activities, and he wrote more on tantra than any other topic.

In modern practice, I think it is much easier for Gelug lay practitioners to receive highest yoga tantra initiation and commentaries on the generation and completion stages, then further go on to complete a short action enabling retreat while living a regular working life than in Karma Kagyu, where it seems much of this is restricted to three year retreat settings. I know of Gelug practitioners whose foundation for decades of practice was a highest yoga tantra initiation that they walked into during one of their first visits to a Gelug centre. Even when the vajra master is being more selective, some very experienced people somehow end up missing the emails advertising the event, only finding out about it afterwards, while others who had been around for only two or so years are able to participate. How much background of sutra practice is required is very much a matter of individual karma rather than a firm requirement.

Sonam Wangchug wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 3:22 pm
"The origin of the Kagyu lineage dates back to the ninth century at the time of what is referred to as the full flowering of tantric Buddhism in India.

The first of the Kagyu masters is known as Tilopa who received direct transmission from Dorje Chang (skt. vajradhara) in turn Tilopa gave the whispered teachings to Naropa, in turn these were transmitted to Marpa, the translator who in turn continued to gift them on to Milarepa, and from Milarepa to Gampopa and in turn to the First Karmapa Dusum Khyenpa (110-1193)

Therefore it can be said that the Kagyu tradition is a blend of both the esoteric (tantric) which embodies the Mahasiddhas and the systematic and structured paths and stages of the more strict discipline, which were brought together by Gampopa, so it is this union of discipline and total freedom that characterizes the Kagyu tradition." - Traleg Kyabgon Rinpoche.
Crazywisdom wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 11:16 am Seems the key difference between Kagyu and Geluk is Tsonkhapa and whether one buys into his innovations or whatever one prefers the guys who kept the lineage of Tilopa in tact, if you believed they did, or if you believe Tsonkhapa fixed something that got broken.
The lineage of Tilopa is not exclusive to the Kagyupa. To mirror Traleg Kyabgon Rinpoche's quote, we could say that Gelugpas inherited the direct transmission of the king of tantras from Vajradhara-->Ratnamati-->Nagarjuna-->Matangipa-->Tilopa-->Naropa-->Marpa-->Tshurton Wanggi Dorje-->Turlapa Tsultrim Kyab-->Tangdewa Pakpa Kyab-->Serdingpa Zhonnu Wo-->Choku Wozer-->Pakpawo Yonten Gyatso-->Buton Rinchen Drub-->Khyungpo Lhepa-->Tsongkhapa.

Another lineage of Tilopa goes to Tsongkhapa through Naropa-->Pamtingpa brothers-->Lotsawa Sherab Tsek-->Malgyur Lodro Drak-->Sachen Kunga Nyingpo-->Sonam Tsemo-->Drakpa Gyaltsen-->Sakya Pandita-->Chogyal Pakpa-->Shangton Konchok Pel-->Nasa Drakpukpa-->Lama Dampa Sonam Gyaltsen-->Tsongkhapa.

As for the Kadam lineages, Tsongkhapa received the lineages of pith instructions and lamrim instructions from Lhodrak Namkha Gyaltsen, and the lineage of the treatises from Chokyab Sangpo. Thus, he inherited all three of Kadam lineages as well. Therefore, the Gelug tradition unites sutra and tantra.
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Re: Comparison of Kagyu and Gelug schools?

Post by zerwe »

jmlee369 wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 9:06 am
Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 9:24 pm Gelug emphasizes extensive general Mahayana and Sutrayana from the Kadam tradition before Vajrayana.

Kagyu emphasizes Vajrayana practices, in retreat when possible. General Mahayana and Sutrayana from the Kadam tradition do exist, but they don’t have the same emphasis.

Both have Sarma Tantras and the 6 Yogas of Naropa.
I'm not too sure about the heavy emphasis on general Mahayana and Sutrayana as a preliminary. It's true that monk-scholars at Drepung and Sera were not allowed to study tantra extensively while they were following the Geshe studies curriculum, and the two monasteries has tantric colleges separate from the scholastic colleges. However the tradition at Ganden was different from the beginning, as Je Tsongkhapa assigned different tantric cycles to different regional houses, as well as an overall emphasis on Guhyasamaja for Jangtse college, and 13 deity Vajrabhairava for Shartse college. It is also possible to receive the tantric Geshe Ngagrampa degree by studying at Jangtse college without having to go to either Gyuto or Gyume. Hence Ganden had no separate tantric college, and was known to practice a union of sutra and tantra.

Je Rinpoche himself viewed the transmission and preservation of proper highest yoga tantric practice as one of his main activities, and he wrote more on tantra than any other topic.

In modern practice, I think it is much easier for Gelug lay practitioners to receive highest yoga tantra initiation and commentaries on the generation and completion stages, then further go on to complete a short action enabling retreat while living a regular working life than in Karma Kagyu, where it seems much of this is restricted to three year retreat settings. I know of Gelug practitioners whose foundation for decades of practice was a highest yoga tantra initiation that they walked into during one of their first visits to a Gelug centre. Even when the vajra master is being more selective, some very experienced people somehow end up missing the emails advertising the event, only finding out about it afterwards, while others who had been around for only two or so years are able to participate. How much background of sutra practice is required is very much a matter of individual karma rather than a firm requirement.

Sonam Wangchug wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 3:22 pm
"The origin of the Kagyu lineage dates back to the ninth century at the time of what is referred to as the full flowering of tantric Buddhism in India.

The first of the Kagyu masters is known as Tilopa who received direct transmission from Dorje Chang (skt. vajradhara) in turn Tilopa gave the whispered teachings to Naropa, in turn these were transmitted to Marpa, the translator who in turn continued to gift them on to Milarepa, and from Milarepa to Gampopa and in turn to the First Karmapa Dusum Khyenpa (110-1193)

Therefore it can be said that the Kagyu tradition is a blend of both the esoteric (tantric) which embodies the Mahasiddhas and the systematic and structured paths and stages of the more strict discipline, which were brought together by Gampopa, so it is this union of discipline and total freedom that characterizes the Kagyu tradition." - Traleg Kyabgon Rinpoche.
Crazywisdom wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 11:16 am Seems the key difference between Kagyu and Geluk is Tsonkhapa and whether one buys into his innovations or whatever one prefers the guys who kept the lineage of Tilopa in tact, if you believed they did, or if you believe Tsonkhapa fixed something that got broken.
The lineage of Tilopa is not exclusive to the Kagyupa. To mirror Traleg Kyabgon Rinpoche's quote, we could say that Gelugpas inherited the direct transmission of the king of tantras from Vajradhara-->Ratnamati-->Nagarjuna-->Matangipa-->Tilopa-->Naropa-->Marpa-->Tshurton Wanggi Dorje-->Turlapa Tsultrim Kyab-->Tangdewa Pakpa Kyab-->Serdingpa Zhonnu Wo-->Choku Wozer-->Pakpawo Yonten Gyatso-->Buton Rinchen Drub-->Khyungpo Lhepa-->Tsongkhapa.

Another lineage of Tilopa goes to Tsongkhapa through Naropa-->Pamtingpa brothers-->Lotsawa Sherab Tsek-->Malgyur Lodro Drak-->Sachen Kunga Nyingpo-->Sonam Tsemo-->Drakpa Gyaltsen-->Sakya Pandita-->Chogyal Pakpa-->Shangton Konchok Pel-->Nasa Drakpukpa-->Lama Dampa Sonam Gyaltsen-->Tsongkhapa.

As for the Kadam lineages, Tsongkhapa received the lineages of pith instructions and lamrim instructions from Lhodrak Namkha Gyaltsen, and the lineage of the treatises from Chokyab Sangpo. Thus, he inherited all three of Kadam lineages as well. Therefore, the Gelug tradition unites sutra and tantra.
:good:

I am not an authority, but I would say that many of my own experiences mirror what you are describing. I think the exception is that, as far as HYT is concerned, it depends on what teacher(s) you come into contact with. The first group that I came into contact with, and still consider my practice "home," have relatively few who have had the fortune to have receive initiation. With that said, as soon as I stepped outside of my local/regional gompa, I found enormous opportunities. Also, it all boils down to one's own karma.

To summarize, reiterate and piggyback on what you are saying, Tsongkhapa presented a unification of sutra and tantra that would later become steeped in rigorous scholasticism and debate.

Shaun :namaste:
zerwe
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Re: Comparison of Kagyu and Gelug schools?

Post by zerwe »

tobes wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 11:15 pm
lelopa wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 10:23 am
PeterC wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 2:50 am

Tsonkhapa is to Gelug as Marx is to Marxism. There’s what he wrote, and what people say it means.
Marxism/Leninism!
Tsongkhapism/Phabonkapism?
Ok, but it sounds strange.....
I like PeterC's analogy because the most intense critiques always come from people who have barely seen the front cover of Capital, let alone read it, let alone studied it (i.e. the critique is nothing more or less then the prior commitment to liberalism).
"...There's what he wrote, and what people say it means." I agree and I think this applies to, and is, the entire corpus of buddhadharma.

In large part, as a result of and true to the spirit of Sakyamuni's instruction;

O bhikshus and wise men, just as a goldsmith would test his gold by burning, cutting, and rubbing it, so you must examine my words and accept them, but not merely out of reverence for me.

On the other hand it evolves, because of the changing capacities and dispositions of the disciples.

Shaun :namaste:
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Re: Comparison of Kagyu and Gelug schools?

Post by nyonchung »

Crazywisdom wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 9:57 am Tsonkhapa's lama was Drikung Kagyu. So...
one of Tsongkapa's teachers was Nyernyipa Chökyi Gyelpo (1335-1407 - r. 1351-1395) - but the main tantric teachings transmitted by Tsongkhapa to his main disciples were from two major disciples of Butön (this includes the Trophu-kagyü transmissions)
and the now-Gelugpa six yogas transmission is from Tsezhi Sarma Dragpa Jangchub (1356-1386) - that is from the Phagmodrupa line of Densa Thel (now extinct as such), Tsongkhapa wrote a biography of this master
Anyway, Tsongkhapa's first teacher, Döndrub Rinchen, was holding both Sakyapa (Jigjé transmissions) and Kadampa lineages

Tsongkkapa's list of teachers is long and well preserved in his record of received teachings, and in biographies
"Me and the sky don't hold views - Me and the river have no fixed practice
Me and the madman don't have a guide- Me and the rainbow have no experiences
Me, the sun and the moon have no certitudes - Me and the jewel bear no fruit" - Dampa Sanggyé as quoted by Domar Mingyur Dorjé (born 1675)
Natan
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Re: Comparison of Kagyu and Gelug schools?

Post by Natan »

nyonchung wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 11:24 am
Crazywisdom wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 9:57 am Tsonkhapa's lama was Drikung Kagyu. So...
one of Tsongkapa's teachers was Nyernyipa Chökyi Gyelpo (1335-1407 - r. 1351-1395) - but the main tantric teachings transmitted by Tsongkhapa to his main disciples were from two major disciples of Butön (this includes the Trophu-kagyü transmissions)
and the now-Gelugpa six yogas transmission is from Tsezhi Sarma Dragpa Jangchub (1356-1386) - that is from the Phagmodrupa line of Densa Thel (now extinct as such), Tsongkhapa wrote a biography of this master
Anyway, Tsongkhapa's first teacher, Döndrub Rinchen, was holding both Sakyapa (Jigjé transmissions) and Kadampa lineages

Tsongkkapa's list of teachers is long and well preserved in his record of received teachings, and in biographies
Yeah well the root guru is who introduced you to the nature of mind. Drikung says Tsonkhapa did that with them. And then acted like there was no such thing as a blessing lineage. Lord Jigten Sumgon was Phagmo Drupa's heart disciple. Drikung Kagyu is Pagmo Drubpa's lineage.

The difference between Geluk and Kagyu is guru loyalty.
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Re: Comparison of Kagyu and Gelug schools?

Post by nyonchung »

Crazywisdom wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 11:30 am
nyonchung wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 11:24 am
Crazywisdom wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 9:57 am Tsonkhapa's lama was Drikung Kagyu. So...
one of Tsongkapa's teachers was Nyernyipa Chökyi Gyelpo (1335-1407 - r. 1351-1395) - but the main tantric teachings transmitted by Tsongkhapa to his main disciples were from two major disciples of Butön (this includes the Trophu-kagyü transmissions)
and the now-Gelugpa six yogas transmission is from Tsezhi Sarma Dragpa Jangchub (1356-1386) - that is from the Phagmodrupa line of Densa Thel (now extinct as such), Tsongkhapa wrote a biography of this master
Anyway, Tsongkhapa's first teacher, Döndrub Rinchen, was holding both Sakyapa (Jigjé transmissions) and Kadampa lineages

Tsongkkapa's list of teachers is long and well preserved in his record of received teachings, and in biographies
Yeah well the root guru is who introduced you to the nature of mind. Drikung says Tsonkhapa did that with them. And then acted like there was no such thing as a blessing lineage. Lord Jigten Sumgon was Phagmo Drupa's heart disciple. Drikung Kagyu is Pagmo Drubpa's lineage.

The difference between Geluk and Kagyu is guru loyalty.
So you never read any detailed biography of Tsongkhapa ... his foremost teacher was certainly Döndrub Rinchen who sent him to Central Tibet. Then he had many teachers in different traditions, but the mainstream of the Gelug transmissions are the systems coming from Butön.
But certainly Tsongkhapa was loyal to his gurus ... yours is a strange dharma center rumor, since up to around 1450 (well after Tsongkhgapa's death) relations between Gelugpas (Ganden monastery) and Drikhung were good.
Tsongkhapa visited Drikhung probably en 1373 (on arrival in Central Tibet at age 17) he received from Nyernyipa the Bodhisattva vows and the phyag chen lnga ldan (five parts mahamudra) and the Vajramala initiations from Künga Lodrö
He possibly also met there the Sakyapa / Jonangpa master Sabzang Mati who was then staying in Drikhung (he wrote at least a commentary in Drikhung)

Key in the Mahamudra transmissons of Tsongkhapa are the visions of Umapa (and of Manjushri) - the subject of many controversies ...

Phagmodrupa had more that one important disciple , and his lineage's six-yoga system was different from those of the "branches", Drikhung, Taglung, Drugpa etc ... this is well documented. The same way, Gampo, Gampopa's own seat had a specific transmission etc ...
I hope that you are aware tha, att some point, the Drikhung transmissions almost vanished from Drikhung itself (due to internecine strife and external attacks) and were preserved for a generation in Taglung also by successive Zhamarpas (the 6th was born in the Kyura family), the 9th Karmapa wrote about the dgongs gcig

The stories of transmissions are complex, but well documented, and are to be understood beyond the limitations of sectarian affilations ...
"Me and the sky don't hold views - Me and the river have no fixed practice
Me and the madman don't have a guide- Me and the rainbow have no experiences
Me, the sun and the moon have no certitudes - Me and the jewel bear no fruit" - Dampa Sanggyé as quoted by Domar Mingyur Dorjé (born 1675)
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Re: Comparison of Kagyu and Gelug schools?

Post by Natan »

nyonchung wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 3:03 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 11:30 am
nyonchung wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 11:24 am

one of Tsongkapa's teachers was Nyernyipa Chökyi Gyelpo (1335-1407 - r. 1351-1395) - but the main tantric teachings transmitted by Tsongkhapa to his main disciples were from two major disciples of Butön (this includes the Trophu-kagyü transmissions)
and the now-Gelugpa six yogas transmission is from Tsezhi Sarma Dragpa Jangchub (1356-1386) - that is from the Phagmodrupa line of Densa Thel (now extinct as such), Tsongkhapa wrote a biography of this master
Anyway, Tsongkhapa's first teacher, Döndrub Rinchen, was holding both Sakyapa (Jigjé transmissions) and Kadampa lineages

Tsongkkapa's list of teachers is long and well preserved in his record of received teachings, and in biographies
Yeah well the root guru is who introduced you to the nature of mind. Drikung says Tsonkhapa did that with them. And then acted like there was no such thing as a blessing lineage. Lord Jigten Sumgon was Phagmo Drupa's heart disciple. Drikung Kagyu is Pagmo Drubpa's lineage.

The difference between Geluk and Kagyu is guru loyalty.
So you never read any detailed biography of Tsongkhapa ... his foremost teacher was certainly Döndrub Rinchen who sent him to Central Tibet. Then he had many teachers in different traditions, but the mainstream of the Gelug transmissions are the systems coming from Butön.
But certainly Tsongkhapa was loyal to his gurus ... yours is a strange dharma center rumor, since up to around 1450 (well after Tsongkhgapa's death) relations between Gelugpas (Ganden monastery) and Drikhung were good.
Tsongkhapa visited Drikhung probably en 1373 (on arrival in Central Tibet at age 17) he received from Nyernyipa the Bodhisattva vows and the phyag chen lnga ldan (five parts mahamudra) and the Vajramala initiations from Künga Lodrö
He possibly also met there the Sakyapa / Jonangpa master Sabzang Mati who was then staying in Drikhung (he wrote at least a commentary in Drikhung)

Key in the Mahamudra transmissons of Tsongkhapa are the visions of Umapa (and of Manjushri) - the subject of many controversies ...

Phagmodrupa had more that one important disciple , and his lineage's six-yoga system was different from those of the "branches", Drikhung, Taglung, Drugpa etc ... this is well documented. The same way, Gampo, Gampopa's own seat had a specific transmission etc ...
I hope that you are aware tha, att some point, the Drikhung transmissions almost vanished from Drikhung itself (due to internecine strife and external attacks) and were preserved for a generation in Taglung also by successive Zhamarpas (the 6th was born in the Kyura family), the 9th Karmapa wrote about the dgongs gcig

The stories of transmissions are complex, but well documented, and are to be understood beyond the limitations of sectarian affilations ...
Yeah I am close to Taklung Matul Rinpoche. He attended my retreats. All these documents are full of shit. Let's be honest. Tsonkhapa made a lineage off of visions.
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Re: Comparison of Kagyu and Gelug schools?

Post by nyonchung »

Crazywisdom wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 3:43 pm
Yeah I am close to Taklung Matul Rinpoche. He attended my retreats. All these documents are full of shit. Let's be honest. Tsonkhapa made a lineage off of visions.
I guess this is what Taklung Matul Rinpoché says to His Holiness the Dalai Lama everytime he meets him ...
Which documents BTW?
"Me and the sky don't hold views - Me and the river have no fixed practice
Me and the madman don't have a guide- Me and the rainbow have no experiences
Me, the sun and the moon have no certitudes - Me and the jewel bear no fruit" - Dampa Sanggyé as quoted by Domar Mingyur Dorjé (born 1675)
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Re: Comparison of Kagyu and Gelug schools?

Post by Malcolm »

Crazywisdom wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 3:43 pm Tsonkhapa made a lineage off of visions.
And, even if it were true (it isn't), this is a problem because...?
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Re: Comparison of Kagyu and Gelug schools?

Post by zerwe »

Crazywisdom wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 3:43 pm
nyonchung wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 3:03 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 11:30 am
Yeah well the root guru is who introduced you to the nature of mind. Drikung says Tsonkhapa did that with them. And then acted like there was no such thing as a blessing lineage. Lord Jigten Sumgon was Phagmo Drupa's heart disciple. Drikung Kagyu is Pagmo Drubpa's lineage.

The difference between Geluk and Kagyu is guru loyalty.
So you never read any detailed biography of Tsongkhapa ... his foremost teacher was certainly Döndrub Rinchen who sent him to Central Tibet. Then he had many teachers in different traditions, but the mainstream of the Gelug transmissions are the systems coming from Butön.
But certainly Tsongkhapa was loyal to his gurus ... yours is a strange dharma center rumor, since up to around 1450 (well after Tsongkhgapa's death) relations between Gelugpas (Ganden monastery) and Drikhung were good.
Tsongkhapa visited Drikhung probably en 1373 (on arrival in Central Tibet at age 17) he received from Nyernyipa the Bodhisattva vows and the phyag chen lnga ldan (five parts mahamudra) and the Vajramala initiations from Künga Lodrö
He possibly also met there the Sakyapa / Jonangpa master Sabzang Mati who was then staying in Drikhung (he wrote at least a commentary in Drikhung)

Key in the Mahamudra transmissons of Tsongkhapa are the visions of Umapa (and of Manjushri) - the subject of many controversies ...

Phagmodrupa had more that one important disciple , and his lineage's six-yoga system was different from those of the "branches", Drikhung, Taglung, Drugpa etc ... this is well documented. The same way, Gampo, Gampopa's own seat had a specific transmission etc ...
I hope that you are aware tha, att some point, the Drikhung transmissions almost vanished from Drikhung itself (due to internecine strife and external attacks) and were preserved for a generation in Taglung also by successive Zhamarpas (the 6th was born in the Kyura family), the 9th Karmapa wrote about the dgongs gcig

The stories of transmissions are complex, but well documented, and are to be understood beyond the limitations of sectarian affilations ...
Yeah I am close to Taklung Matul Rinpoche. He attended my retreats. All these documents are full of shit. Let's be honest. Tsonkhapa made a lineage off of visions.
Respectfully, I am not sure that you or anyone else can substantiate such a claim nor does it change the way that anyone practices.


"The difference between Geluk and Kagyu is guru loyalty."

Also, what exactly are you saying here?

Shaun :namaste:
Last edited by zerwe on Tue Dec 07, 2021 6:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Malcolm
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Re: Comparison of Kagyu and Gelug schools?

Post by Malcolm »

zerwe wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 5:56 pm "The difference between Geluk and Kagyu is guru loyalty."

Also, what exactly are you saying here?
Some sectarian, triumphalist bullshit, I imagine. But it is pervasive throughout Tibetan Buddhist world, so it is not surprising. Everyone feels their guru is the best, their blessings are the best, their lineage is the best, their practice is the best, their opinion is the best. That's the nature of egotism.
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Re: Comparison of Kagyu and Gelug schools?

Post by nyonchung »

I call this "dratsang rumors", they do exist inside large monasteries, one college against the other(s), in small communities ...
This one is an interesting one - the serious breakup between Drikhung (and this is the lay ruler, the Thogkhapa) and Ganden is around 1525 and has to do with succession problems on the religious seat (Rinchen Phüntsog, more intersted in termas, had to flee in Yarlung)
At times the Drikhungpas had Gelugpas to "change hats", sometimes the opposite ...

Tsongkhapa has of course nothing to do with that and was quite weary of political involvement in his lifetime - but that he lacked serious and was prone to visions his great news (as you say, so what?, and he may not be the only one)

Otherwise, pervasive among humans at large, see soccer, private companies, political parties whatever
"Me and the sky don't hold views - Me and the river have no fixed practice
Me and the madman don't have a guide- Me and the rainbow have no experiences
Me, the sun and the moon have no certitudes - Me and the jewel bear no fruit" - Dampa Sanggyé as quoted by Domar Mingyur Dorjé (born 1675)
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Re: Comparison of Kagyu and Gelug schools?

Post by Josef »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 6:00 pm
zerwe wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 5:56 pm "The difference between Geluk and Kagyu is guru loyalty."

Also, what exactly are you saying here?
Some sectarian, triumphalist bullshit, I imagine. But it is pervasive throughout Tibetan Buddhist world, so it is not surprising. Everyone feels their guru is the best, their blessings are the best, their lineage is the best, their practice is the best, their opinion is the best. That's the nature of egotism.
Absolutely. The notion that Gelugpa's are somehow less devoted to their gurus is absolute rubbish. After spending several years with Gelug sangha's it is quite clear that their devotion to their gurus is incredibly firm. So much so in fact that it lends itself to isolationism.
"All phenomena of samsara depend on the mind, so when the essence of mind is purified, samsara is purified. Since the phenomena of nirvana depend on the pristine consciousness of vidyā, because one remains in the immediacy of vidyā, buddhahood arises on its own. All critical points are summarized with those two." - Longchenpa
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Re: Comparison of Kagyu and Gelug schools?

Post by nyonchung »

zerwe wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 10:42 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 1:06 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 9:57 am Tsonkhapa's lama was Drikung Kagyu. So...
Tsongkhapa also studied at Drikung, where he received the Marpa transmission of Guhyasamaja as well as the six yogas of Naropa.
How should we view Tsongkhapa's Book of Three Inspirations?

Should Tsongkhapa's Six Yogas be considered its own lineage, both similar and different from say--Tsongkhapa being the origin of the short lineage of Vajrabhairava where Gelug now have the combined long (Ra Lotsawa) and short transmissions (Tsonkhapa via Manjusri), or should Gelug lineage of Six Yogas be considered an amended lineage?

I have this question because Tsongkhapa is often presented as painstakingly examining all teachings against the sutras and tantras as taught by the buddha, the commentaries of the great Indian masters, the early Tibetan transmissions and then clarifying or amending for a more "accurate" account.

The Kargyupas are especially renowned for their tradition of the Six
Yogas, and their early lineage masters, such as Marpa, Milarepa,
Gampopa, Pakmo Drupa and Drikungpa, were flawless elucidators of the
tradition. However, as the lineage passed from generation to generation
a large number of subtle points of confusion and error found their way
into many of the oral transmissions. Jey Gyalwa Nyipa [the "Second
Buddha," i.e., Tsongkhapa] removed these, and clarified all the key
points and basic principles of the system.
For this reason the lineage of
Naropa's Six Yogas as practiced within the Gelukpa order today is
especially powerful.
from Glen Mullins introduction

No bias intended, and while I am not yet as widely read as many others, I like to believe the Tsongkhapa scholarship and contributions were unmatched. However, is this somewhat hyperbolic?

Are there examples historically of others who attempted the same or are presented in the same way?

Shaun :namaste:
Tsongkhapa received from a master of the Phagmodru / Densa Thil tradition, Tsezhi Sarma Dragpa Jangchub (1356-1386)
Densa Thil had their own tradition but according to Lho rong chos 'byung, p. 336 - apparently in the Trophu tradition (one of the eight minor Kagyü lineages stemming from Phagodrupa Dorjé Gyelpo) but Tsezhi Sarma seems otherwise to have received the specicific Phagmodru transmission from Chunyipa Sarma Dragpa Sherab (1310-1370)
Needs to check in Tsongkhapa gsan yig (tomorow?)
Hyperbolic? Tsongkhapa wrote the Zab lam nA ro chos drug gi 'khrid yig yid ches gsum ldan
The main lineage holder being Khedrub Jé, then to his brother Baso 1 Chökyi Gyeltsen (1402-1473) , from him this the great gelug siddha Chö Dorjé (born 1457?) from there it enters the so called Ensa-nyengyü, connected to Trashilhünpo monastery (and the first Penchen Lama)
This is a highly austere lineage, but not really a mainstream one

Recently (well since some forty years) the six yogas (I guess from this same lineage) are sold on the market place (on weekends in Paris) without any of the basic requirements (Tsongkhapa would be horrified) so the "especially powerful" is probably excessive nowadays, well hyperbolic ... such practices quicly devaluate a lineage
"Me and the sky don't hold views - Me and the river have no fixed practice
Me and the madman don't have a guide- Me and the rainbow have no experiences
Me, the sun and the moon have no certitudes - Me and the jewel bear no fruit" - Dampa Sanggyé as quoted by Domar Mingyur Dorjé (born 1675)
jmlee369
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Re: Comparison of Kagyu and Gelug schools?

Post by jmlee369 »

Crazywisdom wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 11:30 am Yeah well the root guru is who introduced you to the nature of mind. Drikung says Tsonkhapa did that with them. And then acted like there was no such thing as a blessing lineage. Lord Jigten Sumgon was Phagmo Drupa's heart disciple. Drikung Kagyu is Pagmo Drubpa's lineage.

The difference between Geluk and Kagyu is guru loyalty.
Your definition of root guru is common in Nyingma and Kagyu, but it's not the only one. Sakyapas (and Gelugpas following them) say that whoever bestows the four initiations is a root guru to you. Since Je Rinpoche's first lama Choje Dondrub Rinchen was a Sakyapa who bestowed numerous initiations on him, wouldn't the Sakya definition of root guru be the primary one for Tskngkhapa?

Furthermore, Choje Dondrub Rinchen prescribed an entire life plan for Je Rinpoche that was memorised and followed, down to details such as which texts to study at what age. How's that for guru loyalty?
Natan
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Re: Comparison of Kagyu and Gelug schools?

Post by Natan »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 6:00 pm
zerwe wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 5:56 pm "The difference between Geluk and Kagyu is guru loyalty."

Also, what exactly are you saying here?
Some sectarian, triumphalist bullshit, I imagine. But it is pervasive throughout Tibetan Buddhist world, so it is not surprising. Everyone feels their guru is the best, their blessings are the best, their lineage is the best, their practice is the best, their opinion is the best. That's the nature of egotism.
Let's not pretend we're ecumenical Malcolm. We all know the Geluk view as applied in Vajrayana is considered wrong view in Kagyu and Nyingma.
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Re: Comparison of Kagyu and Gelug schools?

Post by nyonchung »

jmlee369 wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 9:46 am
Crazywisdom wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 11:30 am Yeah well the root guru is who introduced you to the nature of mind. Drikung says Tsonkhapa did that with them. And then acted like there was no such thing as a blessing lineage. Lord Jigten Sumgon was Phagmo Drupa's heart disciple. Drikung Kagyu is Pagmo Drubpa's lineage.

The difference between Geluk and Kagyu is guru loyalty.
Your definition of root guru is common in Nyingma and Kagyu, but it's not the only one. Sakyapas (and Gelugpas following them) say that whoever bestows the four initiations is a root guru to you. Since Je Rinpoche's first lama Choje Dondrub Rinchen was a Sakyapa who bestowed numerous initiations on him, wouldn't the Sakya definition of root guru be the primary one for Tskngkhapa?

Furthermore, Choje Dondrub Rinchen prescribed an entire life plan for Je Rinpoche that was memorised and followed, down to details such as which texts to study at what age. How's that for guru loyalty?
This is a fitting answer, I already mentioned Döndrub Rinchen - but, well, you also had some Sakyapas who were not so happy about some of Tsongkhapa's views and deeds and viewed him a a rogue Sakyapa of sorts.
The greatly detailed Dondrub Rinchen list is possibly a later embellishment (there are a few in Tsongkhapa's biographies/hagiographies as in many teachers' life stories...)
People forget that Sakyapas were then prevalent in Amdo (along with karma-kagyüpas - the fourth Karmapa, Rölpa Dorjé (1340-1383) gave him the name Künga Nyingpo, apparently in 1359 if we check from the Karmapa's biography (before, the Karmapa never left Central Tibet), allowing to reject Tsongkhapa's birth-date on lcags stag 1350, as given by some authors, confirming that Tsongkhapa was born on the 10th of the 10th month of me bya - end of 1357 - this is on Guru Rinpoché's day
"Me and the sky don't hold views - Me and the river have no fixed practice
Me and the madman don't have a guide- Me and the rainbow have no experiences
Me, the sun and the moon have no certitudes - Me and the jewel bear no fruit" - Dampa Sanggyé as quoted by Domar Mingyur Dorjé (born 1675)
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nyonchung
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Re: Comparison of Kagyu and Gelug schools?

Post by nyonchung »

Crazywisdom wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 11:40 am
Malcolm wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 6:00 pm
zerwe wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 5:56 pm "The difference between Geluk and Kagyu is guru loyalty."

Also, what exactly are you saying here?
Some sectarian, triumphalist bullshit, I imagine. But it is pervasive throughout Tibetan Buddhist world, so it is not surprising. Everyone feels their guru is the best, their blessings are the best, their lineage is the best, their practice is the best, their opinion is the best. That's the nature of egotism.
Let's not pretend we're ecumenical Malcolm. We all know the Geluk view as applied in Vajrayana is considered wrong view in Kagyu and Nyingma.
Seems spent years reading Khedrub Jé and successive Karmapas? regarding "root guru" it's not at all a "wrong view" but a way of using terms, read Lodrö Thayé's autobiography to get an idea about devotion towards many teachers from various background (including gelugpa) ...
Certainly views differ (notably on the definition of kyerim and dzogrim) as certainly some Sakyapas don't consider kindly some of Khedrub Jé's view on tantra.

Practical advice from my teachers (notable karma- and shangpa-hkagyü teachers, with a strong nyingma affilation and a definitely rimé background):
If you have a root guru (and one of my teachers emphasized that it may not be the one gave ngotrö) and you go to receive a HYT empowerment or instructions on dzogrim or "mangag" from another master, this master has to be understood as non-different from your root guru (he is also Vajradhara) and same samayas apply.
For an ordinary practioner like myself, I won't go like that to anybody for "deep teachings", just by hearsay or personnal fancy, I'll certainly ask for permission to go , since,I already received many teachings and didn't practice much of it. I'll be careful when creating new samayas.

And if you read biographies and "records of received teachings" of great masters - well they're oecumenic
"Me and the sky don't hold views - Me and the river have no fixed practice
Me and the madman don't have a guide- Me and the rainbow have no experiences
Me, the sun and the moon have no certitudes - Me and the jewel bear no fruit" - Dampa Sanggyé as quoted by Domar Mingyur Dorjé (born 1675)
Malcolm
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Re: Comparison of Kagyu and Gelug schools?

Post by Malcolm »

Crazywisdom wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 11:40 am
Malcolm wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 6:00 pm
zerwe wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 5:56 pm "The difference between Geluk and Kagyu is guru loyalty."

Also, what exactly are you saying here?
Some sectarian, triumphalist bullshit, I imagine. But it is pervasive throughout Tibetan Buddhist world, so it is not surprising. Everyone feels their guru is the best, their blessings are the best, their lineage is the best, their practice is the best, their opinion is the best. That's the nature of egotism.
Let's not pretend we're ecumenical Malcolm. We all know the Geluk view as applied in Vajrayana is considered wrong view in Kagyu and Nyingma.
No, we do not know this. It's a ridiculous assertion. If it were true, then one would be accusing Jigme Lingpa, Shabkar, Dodrupchen Tenpé Nyima, and so on, of having wrong views, because all these men trained in the Geluk system and promulgated Geluk Yikcha in their monasteries, which remain the curriculum current in most Nyingma monasteries in Golok and Amdo. Moreover, it amounts to a claim that Geluk Vajrayāna is invalid and is incapable of producing awakening. This is a ridiculous assertion and merely shows narrow mindedness and lack of education on the part of those who sponsor such views, no matter who they are are. This is illustrated by the shame expressed by Khenpo Jigme Phuntsok, for example, for having naively criticized the views of Tsongkhapa when he was young, whom he later to came to understand was a great mahasiddha, etc. Just study Tsonghapa's praise to dependent origination. You will be unable to find in it a single fault.
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