Comparison of Kagyu and Gelug schools?

Forum for discussion of Tibetan Buddhism. Questions specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Comparison of Kagyu and Gelug schools?

Post by Malcolm »

tobes wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 3:06 am
Malcolm wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 2:26 am
tobes wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 1:25 am There is an ambiguity about what Tsong Khapa thought/practiced/transmitted with respect to DI-mahamudra.

i.e. we have to make inferences based on what was written, but some things may have been transmitted as (unwritten) secret teachings. Different Gelug masters/scholars have different opinions on the question.
Well we don’t really, since Pabhongkha clearly states that Tsongkhapa rejected direct introduction. Are you suggesting that there is some secret teaching in Geluk Pabhongkha didn’t hold?
I said "different Gelug masters/scholars have different opinions on the question." Pabhongka is one - and only one - such master.

So yes, it is quite possible that there were ear whispered transmissions from TK to close disciples which were intentionally not written down/kept from wider circulation.

It is also quite possible that there weren't, and later Gelug Mahamudra masters (such as CG) moved a little from TK's explicit position.

At the end of the day, this is something no one today can really answer with much evidence.
Well, we have two pieces of evidence— Tsongkhapa’s own writing, and Pabhongkha’s confirmation of that position.

There is a third piece as well, Gorampa’s refutation of Tsongkhapa’s position…
User avatar
tobes
Posts: 2194
Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2010 5:02 am

Re: Comparison of Kagyu and Gelug schools?

Post by tobes »

Malcolm wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 3:12 am
tobes wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 3:06 am
Malcolm wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 2:26 am

Well we don’t really, since Pabhongkha clearly states that Tsongkhapa rejected direct introduction. Are you suggesting that there is some secret teaching in Geluk Pabhongkha didn’t hold?
I said "different Gelug masters/scholars have different opinions on the question." Pabhongka is one - and only one - such master.

So yes, it is quite possible that there were ear whispered transmissions from TK to close disciples which were intentionally not written down/kept from wider circulation.

It is also quite possible that there weren't, and later Gelug Mahamudra masters (such as CG) moved a little from TK's explicit position.

At the end of the day, this is something no one today can really answer with much evidence.
Well, we have two pieces of evidence— Tsongkhapa’s own writing, and Pabhongkha’s confirmation of that position.

There is a third piece as well, Gorampa’s refutation of Tsongkhapa’s position…
Since what's at stake here is the question of what might have been transmitted but not written - i.e. the possibility of an ear whispered lineage - neither Tsong Khapa's own writing, nor Gorampa's refutation of that really count as evidence. The same problem also applies to Pabhongkha, except that it is deepened, given that he existed many centuries later.

One needs to examine the Gelug Mahamudra texts, such as Highway of the Conquerors, and ask: what connections (if any) exist between those statements and Tsong Khapa? And people arrive at different conclusions from that task.
Natan
Posts: 3650
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 5:48 pm

Re: Comparison of Kagyu and Gelug schools?

Post by Natan »

zerwe wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 10:42 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 1:06 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 9:57 am Tsonkhapa's lama was Drikung Kagyu. So...
Tsongkhapa also studied at Drikung, where he received the Marpa transmission of Guhyasamaja as well as the six yogas of Naropa.
How should we view Tsongkhapa's Book of Three Inspirations?

Should Tsongkhapa's Six Yogas be considered its own lineage, both similar and different from say--Tsongkhapa being the origin of the short lineage of Vajrabhairava where Gelug now have the combined long (Ra Lotsawa) and short transmissions (Tsonkhapa via Manjusri), or should Gelug lineage of Six Yogas be considered an amended lineage?

I have this question because Tsongkhapa is often presented as painstakingly examining all teachings against the sutras and tantras as taught by the buddha, the commentaries of the great Indian masters, the early Tibetan transmissions and then clarifying or amending for a more "accurate" account.

The Kargyupas are especially renowned for their tradition of the Six
Yogas, and their early lineage masters, such as Marpa, Milarepa,
Gampopa, Pakmo Drupa and Drikungpa, were flawless elucidators of the
tradition. However, as the lineage passed from generation to generation
a large number of subtle points of confusion and error found their way
into many of the oral transmissions. Jey Gyalwa Nyipa [the "Second
Buddha," i.e., Tsongkhapa] removed these, and clarified all the key
points and basic principles of the system.
For this reason the lineage of
Naropa's Six Yogas as practiced within the Gelukpa order today is
especially powerful.
from Glen Mullins introduction

No bias intended, and while I am not yet as widely read as many others, I like to believe the Tsongkhapa scholarship and contributions were unmatched. However, is this somewhat hyperbolic?

Are there examples historically of others who attempted the same or are presented in the same way?

Shaun :namaste:
I doubt mistakes seeped in between Naropa and LJS bc LJS was very close. Naro, Marpa, Mila, Gampopa, Pagmo Drubpa, LJS.

But what has happened is a view of dharmakaya as unconditioned universal mind. That I couldn't swallow.
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Comparison of Kagyu and Gelug schools?

Post by Malcolm »

tobes wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 5:45 am
Malcolm wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 3:12 am
tobes wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 3:06 am

I said "different Gelug masters/scholars have different opinions on the question." Pabhongka is one - and only one - such master.

So yes, it is quite possible that there were ear whispered transmissions from TK to close disciples which were intentionally not written down/kept from wider circulation.

It is also quite possible that there weren't, and later Gelug Mahamudra masters (such as CG) moved a little from TK's explicit position.

At the end of the day, this is something no one today can really answer with much evidence.
Well, we have two pieces of evidence— Tsongkhapa’s own writing, and Pabhongkha’s confirmation of that position.

There is a third piece as well, Gorampa’s refutation of Tsongkhapa’s position…
Since what's at stake here is the question of what might have been transmitted but not written - i.e. the possibility of an ear whispered lineage - neither Tsong Khapa's own writing, nor Gorampa's refutation of that really count as evidence. The same problem also applies to Pabhongkha, except that it is deepened, given that he existed many centuries later.

One needs to examine the Gelug Mahamudra texts, such as Highway of the Conquerors, and ask: what connections (if any) exist between those statements and Tsong Khapa? And people arrive at different conclusions from that task.
Considering that Pabhongkha is considered to the main person who transmitted the Ganden Mahāmudrā tradition in the last century to the present generation, and since he explicitly writes that Tsongkhapa rejected introductions, using this as a precedent for excluding the introduction to dharmatā that is part of the Sakyapa Naro Khachö system, I'd say we can definitely accept his opinion.

On the face of it, the Ganden Mahāmudra is little different than the other Mahāmudra systems in Tibet that trace their origin to Saraha. The Panchen Lama calls it "sutra mahāmudra" ostensibly because he is not requiring an empowerment, but the instructions themselves are virtually identical to such texts as "In Front of the Stupa" in Sakya, differing only in that some empowerment is required to practice the former. Also, recall, Ganden Mahāmudra provoked considerable controversy in the beginning, since up to that point the Gelukpas pretty consistently followed Sapan's rejection of so-called sūtra mahāmudra, and it even annoyed the Great Fifth, who was involved in an actual war with the Karma Kagyu school.

There is also the fact that you and I may mean different things by "introduction."
User avatar
Sonam Wangchug
Posts: 427
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 8:26 pm

Re: Comparison of Kagyu and Gelug schools?

Post by Sonam Wangchug »

Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 9:24 pm Gelug emphasizes extensive general Mahayana and Sutrayana from the Kadam tradition before Vajrayana.

Kagyu emphasizes Vajrayana practices, in retreat when possible. General Mahayana and Sutrayana from the Kadam tradition do exist, but they don’t have the same emphasis.

Both have Sarma Tantras and the 6 Yogas of Naropa.
"The origin of the Kagyu lineage dates back to the ninth century at the time of what is referred to as the full flowering of tantric Buddhism in India.

The first of the Kagyu masters is known as Tilopa who received direct transmission from Dorje Chang (skt. vajradhara) in turn Tilopa gave the whispered teachings to Naropa, in turn these were transmitted to Marpa, the translator who in turn continued to gift them on to Milarepa, and from Milarepa to Gampopa and in turn to the First Karmapa Dusum Khyenpa (110-1193)

Therefore it can be said that the Kagyu tradition is a blend of both the esoteric (tantric) which embodies the Mahasiddhas and the systematic and structured paths and stages of the more strict discipline, which were brought together by Gampopa, so it is this union of discipline and total freedom that characterizes the Kagyu tradition." - Traleg Kyabgon Rinpoche.
"To have confidence in the teacher is the ultimate refuge." -Rigzin Jigme Lingpa
Schrödinger’s Yidam
Posts: 7885
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am

Re: Comparison of Kagyu and Gelug schools?

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

Sonam Wangchug wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 3:22 pm
"The origin of the Kagyu lineage dates back to the ninth century at the time of what is referred to as the full flowering of tantric Buddhism in India.

The first of the Kagyu masters is known as Tilopa who received direct transmission from Dorje Chang (skt. vajradhara) in turn Tilopa gave the whispered teachings to Naropa, in turn these were transmitted to Marpa, the translator who in turn continued to gift them on to Milarepa, and from Milarepa to Gampopa and in turn to the First Karmapa Dusum Khyenpa (110-1193)

Therefore it can be said that the Kagyu tradition is a blend of both the esoteric (tantric) which embodies the Mahasiddhas and the systematic and structured paths and stages of the more strict discipline, which were brought together by Gampopa, so it is this union of discipline and total freedom that characterizes the Kagyu tradition." - Traleg Kyabgon Rinpoche.
Ok, so now in order to compare Kagyu to Gelug, somebody has to come up with an authoritative and pithy summary of Gelug.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
zerwe
Posts: 778
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 4:25 am
Location: North Carolina

Re: Comparison of Kagyu and Gelug schools?

Post by zerwe »

Malcolm wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 2:30 pm
tobes wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 5:45 am
Malcolm wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 3:12 am

Well, we have two pieces of evidence— Tsongkhapa’s own writing, and Pabhongkha’s confirmation of that position.

There is a third piece as well, Gorampa’s refutation of Tsongkhapa’s position…
Since what's at stake here is the question of what might have been transmitted but not written - i.e. the possibility of an ear whispered lineage - neither Tsong Khapa's own writing, nor Gorampa's refutation of that really count as evidence. The same problem also applies to Pabhongkha, except that it is deepened, given that he existed many centuries later.

One needs to examine the Gelug Mahamudra texts, such as Highway of the Conquerors, and ask: what connections (if any) exist between those statements and Tsong Khapa? And people arrive at different conclusions from that task.
Considering that Pabhongkha is considered to the main person who transmitted the Ganden Mahāmudrā tradition in the last century to the present generation, and since he explicitly writes that Tsongkhapa rejected introductions, using this as a precedent for excluding the introduction to dharmatā that is part of the Sakyapa Naro Khachö system, I'd say we can definitely accept his opinion.

On the face of it, the Ganden Mahāmudra is little different than the other Mahāmudra systems in Tibet that trace their origin to Saraha. The Panchen Lama calls it "sutra mahāmudra" ostensibly because he is not requiring an empowerment, but the instructions themselves are virtually identical to such texts as "In Front of the Stupa" in Sakya, differing only in that some empowerment is required to practice the former. Also, recall, Ganden Mahāmudra provoked considerable controversy in the beginning, since up to that point the Gelukpas pretty consistently followed Sapan's rejection of so-called sūtra mahāmudra, and it even annoyed the Great Fifth, who was involved in an actual war with the Karma Kagyu school.

There is also the fact that you and I may mean different things by "introduction."
How is this reconciled with the Pabongkha's promotion of Vajrayogini within Gelug, which is purported to be the Naro Khacho from the 13 Golden Dharmas of the oral transmission lineage of the Sakya father and sons? Are you saying he continued with his established precedent and omitted the instructions as followed by the Sakyapa?

Shaun :namaste:
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Comparison of Kagyu and Gelug schools?

Post by Malcolm »

zerwe wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 3:35 pm How is this reconciled with the Pabongkha's promotion of Vajrayogini within Gelug, which is purported to be the Naro Khacho from the 13 Golden Dharmas of the oral transmission lineage of the Sakya father and sons? Are you saying he continued with his established precedent and omitted the instructions as followed by the Sakyapa?
Yes, that is precisely what I am saying. He deliberately excluded a key part of the Sakyapa transmission on the grounds that Tsongkhapa rejected such introductions. It's not a big deal as it sounds, really, as this introduction is not necessarily given in Sakya during the standard ten day instruction.

In any case, Tsongkhapa had already rejected a key point in the Sakya system of Cakrasamvara over all, the idea that the "ultimate secret" (guhyānta) means what the Sakyapas claim it means. You can read about that in Gray's intro to his translation of the Laghusamvara.
User avatar
conebeckham
Posts: 5694
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:49 pm
Location: Bay Area, CA, USA

Re: Comparison of Kagyu and Gelug schools?

Post by conebeckham »

Malcolm wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 3:41 pm
zerwe wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 3:35 pm How is this reconciled with the Pabongkha's promotion of Vajrayogini within Gelug, which is purported to be the Naro Khacho from the 13 Golden Dharmas of the oral transmission lineage of the Sakya father and sons? Are you saying he continued with his established precedent and omitted the instructions as followed by the Sakyapa?
Yes, that is precisely what I am saying. He deliberately excluded a key part of the Sakyapa transmission on the grounds that Tsongkhapa rejected such introductions. It's not a big deal as it sounds, really, as this introduction is not necessarily given in Sakya during the standard ten day instruction.

In any case, Tsongkhapa had already rejected a key point in the Sakya system of Cakrasamvara over all, the idea that the "ultimate secret" (guhyānta) means what the Sakyapas claim it means. You can read about that in Gray's intro to his translation of the Laghusamvara.
Are you referring to Gray’s translation of Tsong Khapa’s commentary? I don’t recall it in the volume of the actual Tantra….
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Comparison of Kagyu and Gelug schools?

Post by Malcolm »

conebeckham wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 7:45 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 3:41 pm
zerwe wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 3:35 pm How is this reconciled with the Pabongkha's promotion of Vajrayogini within Gelug, which is purported to be the Naro Khacho from the 13 Golden Dharmas of the oral transmission lineage of the Sakya father and sons? Are you saying he continued with his established precedent and omitted the instructions as followed by the Sakyapa?
Yes, that is precisely what I am saying. He deliberately excluded a key part of the Sakyapa transmission on the grounds that Tsongkhapa rejected such introductions. It's not a big deal as it sounds, really, as this introduction is not necessarily given in Sakya during the standard ten day instruction.

In any case, Tsongkhapa had already rejected a key point in the Sakya system of Cakrasamvara over all, the idea that the "ultimate secret" (guhyānta) means what the Sakyapas claim it means. You can read about that in Gray's intro to his translation of the Laghusamvara.
Are you referring to Gray’s translation of Tsong Khapa’s commentary? I don’t recall it in the volume of the actual Tantra….
Its in the intro of the translation of the root text.
Nalanda
Posts: 646
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2021 4:35 am

Re: Comparison of Kagyu and Gelug schools?

Post by Nalanda »

Sustained interaction with Manjushri seems like a pretty serious deal, no?

Should we view Master Tsongkapa a Buddhisatva or Buddha?
IF YOU PRACTICE WITH A STRONG BELIEF IN WHAT
YOU ARE DOING, THEN THERE IS NO LIMIT TO WHAT
YOU CAN ACCOMPLISH WITH YOUR PRACTICE.

CHAKUNG JIGME WANGDRAK RINPOCHE

zerwe
Posts: 778
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 4:25 am
Location: North Carolina

Re: Comparison of Kagyu and Gelug schools?

Post by zerwe »

Nalanda wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 10:05 pm Sustained interaction with Manjushri seems like a pretty serious deal, no?

Should we view Master Tsongkapa a Buddhisatva or Buddha?
He has been regarded as a "second Buddha." Padmasambhava, at an earlier time, was also given this title by his devotees.

Shaun :namaste:
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Comparison of Kagyu and Gelug schools?

Post by Malcolm »

zerwe wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 10:07 pm
Nalanda wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 10:05 pm Sustained interaction with Manjushri seems like a pretty serious deal, no?

Should we view Master Tsongkapa a Buddhisatva or Buddha?
He has been regarded as a "second Buddha." Padmasambhava, at an earlier time, was also given this title by his devotees.
As was Nāgārjuna, the original second Buddha.
User avatar
tobes
Posts: 2194
Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2010 5:02 am

Re: Comparison of Kagyu and Gelug schools?

Post by tobes »

Malcolm wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 2:30 pm
tobes wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 5:45 am
Malcolm wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 3:12 am

Well, we have two pieces of evidence— Tsongkhapa’s own writing, and Pabhongkha’s confirmation of that position.

There is a third piece as well, Gorampa’s refutation of Tsongkhapa’s position…
Since what's at stake here is the question of what might have been transmitted but not written - i.e. the possibility of an ear whispered lineage - neither Tsong Khapa's own writing, nor Gorampa's refutation of that really count as evidence. The same problem also applies to Pabhongkha, except that it is deepened, given that he existed many centuries later.

One needs to examine the Gelug Mahamudra texts, such as Highway of the Conquerors, and ask: what connections (if any) exist between those statements and Tsong Khapa? And people arrive at different conclusions from that task.
Considering that Pabhongkha is considered to the main person who transmitted the Ganden Mahāmudrā tradition in the last century to the present generation, and since he explicitly writes that Tsongkhapa rejected introductions, using this as a precedent for excluding the introduction to dharmatā that is part of the Sakyapa Naro Khachö system, I'd say we can definitely accept his opinion.

On the face of it, the Ganden Mahāmudra is little different than the other Mahāmudra systems in Tibet that trace their origin to Saraha. The Panchen Lama calls it "sutra mahāmudra" ostensibly because he is not requiring an empowerment, but the instructions themselves are virtually identical to such texts as "In Front of the Stupa" in Sakya, differing only in that some empowerment is required to practice the former. Also, recall, Ganden Mahāmudra provoked considerable controversy in the beginning, since up to that point the Gelukpas pretty consistently followed Sapan's rejection of so-called sūtra mahāmudra, and it even annoyed the Great Fifth, who was involved in an actual war with the Karma Kagyu school.

There is also the fact that you and I may mean different things by "introduction."
I think you need to examine more closely. In Highway of the Conquerors The Panchen Lama devotes the first part to Tantric Mahamudra; he merely takes it as a given that a lengthy qualification of this is less necessary than sutra Mahamudra, because such explanations were already existent in many places. He explicitly defends 'subtism' in that section. i.e. sudden, direct realisation. Moreover, he regularly quotes Sapan.

I'm not sure why you think a 19th century master takes precedence on this question, over the actual genesis of the tradition as it unfolded 1500's'ish.
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Comparison of Kagyu and Gelug schools?

Post by Malcolm »

tobes wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 11:09 pm I'm not sure why you think a 19th century master takes precedence on this question, over the actual genesis of the tradition as it unfolded 1500's'ish.
Because said master was the main lineage holder of the Ganden Mahāmudra tradition, so according to your reasoning, as the main person responsible for this transmission, his opinions on related matters should hold considerable sway.
Nalanda
Posts: 646
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2021 4:35 am

Re: Comparison of Kagyu and Gelug schools?

Post by Nalanda »

So we have 3 second Buddhas?
IF YOU PRACTICE WITH A STRONG BELIEF IN WHAT
YOU ARE DOING, THEN THERE IS NO LIMIT TO WHAT
YOU CAN ACCOMPLISH WITH YOUR PRACTICE.

CHAKUNG JIGME WANGDRAK RINPOCHE

Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Comparison of Kagyu and Gelug schools?

Post by Malcolm »

tobes wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 11:09 pm
I think you need to examine more closely. In Highway of the Conquerors
I'll read it and get back to you. The auto-commentary to which you refer, the Utterly Clear Lamp (yang gsal sgron ma), is not terribly long.
User avatar
tobes
Posts: 2194
Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2010 5:02 am

Re: Comparison of Kagyu and Gelug schools?

Post by tobes »

Malcolm wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 11:14 pm
tobes wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 11:09 pm I'm not sure why you think a 19th century master takes precedence on this question, over the actual genesis of the tradition as it unfolded 1500's'ish.
Because said master was the main lineage holder of the Ganden Mahāmudra tradition, so according to your reasoning, as the main person responsible for this transmission, his opinions on related matters should hold considerable sway.
Yes they should sway. But: so too should earlier opinions. And if there is inconsistency, we need to be alert to this. That's all I'm really asserting - that there are some inconsistencies and ambiguities in the mix here, most of which we can't really get to the bottom of.
User avatar
lelopa
Posts: 908
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2012 5:03 pm

Re: Comparison of Kagyu and Gelug schools?

Post by lelopa »

PeterC wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 2:50 am
tobes wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 1:25 am There is an ambiguity about what Tsong Khapa thought/practiced/transmitted with respect to DI-mahamudra.
Tsonkhapa is to Gelug as Marx is to Marxism. There’s what he wrote, and what people say it means.
Marxism/Leninism!
Tsongkhapism/Phabonkapism?
Ok, but it sounds strange.....
Lost In Transmission
Natan
Posts: 3650
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 5:48 pm

Re: Comparison of Kagyu and Gelug schools?

Post by Natan »

Seems the key difference between Kagyu and Geluk is Tsonkhapa and whether one buys into his innovations or whatever one prefers the guys who kept the lineage of Tilopa in tact, if you believed they did, or if you believe Tsonkhapa fixed something that got broken.
Post Reply

Return to “Tibetan Buddhism”