Comparison of Kagyu and Gelug schools?

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Dharmalight889
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Comparison of Kagyu and Gelug schools?

Post by Dharmalight889 »

Im starting to learn more about the Tibetan schools and the Kagyu and Gelug schools interest me the most. I've done a little reading of each and watched some videos and both seem interesting and have some good and bad to each. From what I have seen on this website it seems people suggest to follow a teacher over a tradition and since there are both Kagyu and Gelug centers near me I think that will be a major factor in finding which to follow. Other then that does anyone have some comparisons between the two schools? Maybe some info a new practitioner wouldn't know about the two schools which may sway their choice between them?
Kaung
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Re: Comparison of Kagyu and Gelug schools?

Post by Kaung »

I think it really depends on the teacher and the sangha community rather than the lineage.I have teachers in both lineages.They are really similar and it just really comes down to the teacher’s style.I’d suggest you check out both places and find out which one suits you better,carrying around some intellectual baggage about how a lineage should be isn’t really going to be helpful.
Schrödinger’s Yidam
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Re: Comparison of Kagyu and Gelug schools?

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

There are Gelug schools that are opposed to the Dalai Lama. Without getting into the nuts and bolts of why, I suggest you stay away from them. Mainstream Gelug are okay.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Natan
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Re: Comparison of Kagyu and Gelug schools?

Post by Natan »

Tsonkhapa's lama was Drikung Kagyu. So...
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Ayu
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Re: Comparison of Kagyu and Gelug schools?

Post by Ayu »

Dharmalight889 wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 3:05 am Im starting to learn more about the Tibetan schools and the Kagyu and Gelug schools interest me the most. I've done a little reading of each and watched some videos and both seem interesting and have some good and bad to each. From what I have seen on this website it seems people suggest to follow a teacher over a tradition and since there are both Kagyu and Gelug centers near me I think that will be a major factor in finding which to follow. Other then that does anyone have some comparisons between the two schools? Maybe some info a new practitioner wouldn't know about the two schools which may sway their choice between them?
When I was a beginner in Buddhism, I faced a similar situation as you describe here. Some senior dharmasibling recommended to me not to choose one, but just follow both. Both were true and good, so, why choose?
Ultimately, I was chosen by the path, I think. I was leaning to Gelug, but only due to practical reasons like the traveling schedules of the teachers and my interest in given teachings. Both teachers were and still are excellent. If I could have duplicated myself, I would have attended both until now.
For me, it was a good decision not to seek for reasons in order to choose one.
PeterC
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Re: Comparison of Kagyu and Gelug schools?

Post by PeterC »

Dharmalight889 wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 3:05 am Im starting to learn more about the Tibetan schools and the Kagyu and Gelug schools interest me the most. I've done a little reading of each and watched some videos and both seem interesting and have some good and bad to each. From what I have seen on this website it seems people suggest to follow a teacher over a tradition and since there are both Kagyu and Gelug centers near me I think that will be a major factor in finding which to follow. Other then that does anyone have some comparisons between the two schools? Maybe some info a new practitioner wouldn't know about the two schools which may sway their choice between them?
Perhaps you could post the names of the specific centers / lamas and ask anyone who has direct knowledge of them to message you directly (rather than post in public)
Malcolm
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Re: Comparison of Kagyu and Gelug schools?

Post by Malcolm »

Crazywisdom wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 9:57 am Tsonkhapa's lama was Drikung Kagyu. So...
Tsongkhapa’s principle teacher was the Sakya Master, Rendawa Zhonnu Lodro, from he received Go transmission of Guhyasamaja. Tsongkhapa also studied at Drikung, where he received the Marpa transmission of Guhyasamaja as well as the six yogas of Naropa. But Tsongkhapa’s Sakya connections were sufficiently strong that in the early days, his school was called “New Sakya.” He also self-identified as a Sakyapa in several of his earlier works. To my knowledge, he never identified as A Kagyu, though he certainly had Kagyu teachers.
Natan
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Re: Comparison of Kagyu and Gelug schools?

Post by Natan »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 1:06 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 9:57 am Tsonkhapa's lama was Drikung Kagyu. So...
Tsongkhapa’s principle teacher was the Sakya Master, Rendawa Zhonnu Lodro, from he received Go transmission of Guhyasamaja. Tsongkhapa also studied at Drikung, where he received the Marpa transmission of Guhyasamaja as well as the six yogas of Naropa. But Tsongkhapa’s Sakya connections were sufficiently strong that in the early days, his school was called “New Sakya.” He also self-identified as a Sakyapa in several of his earlier works. To my knowledge, he never identified as A Kagyu, though he certainly had Kagyu teachers.
It's where he got instructions on the nature of mind.
Malcolm
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Re: Comparison of Kagyu and Gelug schools?

Post by Malcolm »

Crazywisdom wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 4:28 pm
It's where he got instructions on the nature of mind.
He received instructions on the nature of mind from Sakya, Kagyu, and Nyingma teachers, but mostly, according to Geluk accounts, from Mañjuśrī in person. Also, Tsongkhapa rejected direct introduction.
Natan
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Re: Comparison of Kagyu and Gelug schools?

Post by Natan »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 4:54 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 4:28 pm
It's where he got instructions on the nature of mind.
He received instructions on the nature of mind from Sakya, Kagyu, and Nyingma teachers, but mostly, according to Geluk accounts, from Mañjuśrī in person. Also, Tsongkhapa rejected direct introduction.
He learned Mahamudra from the DK lineage master. And he rejected direct introduction? That's funny. No wonder DK laugh at Geluk. They do... Sakya, too.
Malcolm
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Re: Comparison of Kagyu and Gelug schools?

Post by Malcolm »

Crazywisdom wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 8:02 pm
He learned Mahamudra from the DK lineage master.
Yes, he learned one stream of mahāmudrā from Kagyu masters; the other, from Sakyā masters, connected with the traditions of Cakrasamvara, Kalacakra (six limb yoga), and Guhyasamāja. Mahāmudrā is common to Kagyu, Gelug, Sakya, and Jonang. No one schools "owns" mahāmudrā.
Natan
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Re: Comparison of Kagyu and Gelug schools?

Post by Natan »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 8:14 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 8:02 pm
He learned Mahamudra from the DK lineage master.
Yes, he learned one stream of mahāmudrā from Kagyu masters; the other, from Sakyā masters, connected with the traditions of Cakrasamvara, Kalacakra (six limb yoga), and Guhyasamāja. Mahāmudrā is common to Kagyu, Gelug, Sakya, and Jonang. No one schools "owns" mahāmudrā.
I know that. Anyway, in DK lore he got LJS Mahamudra completely, the blessing lineage, etc. All the good stuff. I guess the practice blessing lineage wasn't awesome enough. He had to talk to Manjusri to write books.
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Re: Comparison of Kagyu and Gelug schools?

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

Gelug emphasizes extensive general Mahayana and Sutrayana from the Kadam tradition before Vajrayana.

Kagyu emphasizes Vajrayana practices, in retreat when possible. General Mahayana and Sutrayana from the Kadam tradition do exist, but they don’t have the same emphasis.

Both have Sarma Tantras and the 6 Yogas of Naropa.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Malcolm
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Re: Comparison of Kagyu and Gelug schools?

Post by Malcolm »

Crazywisdom wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 8:23 pm He had to talk to Manjusri to write books.
More than that— his experience of awakening, according to Gelug lore, came from his sustained interactions with Mañjuśrī, first through Lama Umapa and next, through his own visionary experience.

It would be interesting to see a comparison made between the six yogas of Naropa texts he wrote with the Jigten Sumgon texts. Thubten Jinpa's bio of Tsongkhapa (well written and interesting) states that in the colophons of his Vajrayāna texts made it clear that he had realized the meaning of these teachings, before he felt comfortable setting them down in the last ten years or so of his life.
zerwe
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Re: Comparison of Kagyu and Gelug schools?

Post by zerwe »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 1:06 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 9:57 am Tsonkhapa's lama was Drikung Kagyu. So...
Tsongkhapa also studied at Drikung, where he received the Marpa transmission of Guhyasamaja as well as the six yogas of Naropa.
How should we view Tsongkhapa's Book of Three Inspirations?

Should Tsongkhapa's Six Yogas be considered its own lineage, both similar and different from say--Tsongkhapa being the origin of the short lineage of Vajrabhairava where Gelug now have the combined long (Ra Lotsawa) and short transmissions (Tsonkhapa via Manjusri), or should Gelug lineage of Six Yogas be considered an amended lineage?

I have this question because Tsongkhapa is often presented as painstakingly examining all teachings against the sutras and tantras as taught by the buddha, the commentaries of the great Indian masters, the early Tibetan transmissions and then clarifying or amending for a more "accurate" account.

The Kargyupas are especially renowned for their tradition of the Six
Yogas, and their early lineage masters, such as Marpa, Milarepa,
Gampopa, Pakmo Drupa and Drikungpa, were flawless elucidators of the
tradition. However, as the lineage passed from generation to generation
a large number of subtle points of confusion and error found their way
into many of the oral transmissions. Jey Gyalwa Nyipa [the "Second
Buddha," i.e., Tsongkhapa] removed these, and clarified all the key
points and basic principles of the system.
For this reason the lineage of
Naropa's Six Yogas as practiced within the Gelukpa order today is
especially powerful.
from Glen Mullins introduction

No bias intended, and while I am not yet as widely read as many others, I like to believe the Tsongkhapa scholarship and contributions were unmatched. However, is this somewhat hyperbolic?

Are there examples historically of others who attempted the same or are presented in the same way?

Shaun :namaste:
Last edited by zerwe on Sat Nov 27, 2021 11:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.
zerwe
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Re: Comparison of Kagyu and Gelug schools?

Post by zerwe »

Crazywisdom wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 8:02 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 4:54 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 4:28 pm
It's where he got instructions on the nature of mind.
He received instructions on the nature of mind from Sakya, Kagyu, and Nyingma teachers, but mostly, according to Geluk accounts, from Mañjuśrī in person. Also, Tsongkhapa rejected direct introduction.
He learned Mahamudra from the DK lineage master. And he rejected direct introduction? That's funny. No wonder DK laugh at Geluk. They do... Sakya, too.
I think this is teased out in a few of the other posts that followed these, but when you have Manjusri as your wingman what else do you need?

Shaun :namaste: :rolling:
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tobes
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Re: Comparison of Kagyu and Gelug schools?

Post by tobes »

There is an ambiguity about what Tsong Khapa thought/practiced/transmitted with respect to DI-mahamudra.

i.e. we have to make inferences based on what was written, but some things may have been transmitted as (unwritten) secret teachings. Different Gelug masters/scholars have different opinions on the question.

It's not that far down the line when we get written mahamudra texts. There is no ambiguity at all when we get to Chokyi Gyaltsen - he puts Saraha front and square (incidentally for the OP, a good place to start on comparing the two lineages). Did he introduce something new to the Gelug system, or was he just the first to write what was already taking place?
Malcolm
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Re: Comparison of Kagyu and Gelug schools?

Post by Malcolm »

tobes wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 1:25 am There is an ambiguity about what Tsong Khapa thought/practiced/transmitted with respect to DI-mahamudra.

i.e. we have to make inferences based on what was written, but some things may have been transmitted as (unwritten) secret teachings. Different Gelug masters/scholars have different opinions on the question.
Well we don’t really, since Pabhongkha clearly states that Tsongkhapa rejected direct introduction. Are you suggesting that there is some secret teaching in Geluk Pabhongkha didn’t hold?
PeterC
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Re: Comparison of Kagyu and Gelug schools?

Post by PeterC »

tobes wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 1:25 am There is an ambiguity about what Tsong Khapa thought/practiced/transmitted with respect to DI-mahamudra.
Tsonkhapa is to Gelug as Marx is to Marxism. There’s what he wrote, and what people say it means.
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tobes
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Re: Comparison of Kagyu and Gelug schools?

Post by tobes »

Malcolm wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 2:26 am
tobes wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 1:25 am There is an ambiguity about what Tsong Khapa thought/practiced/transmitted with respect to DI-mahamudra.

i.e. we have to make inferences based on what was written, but some things may have been transmitted as (unwritten) secret teachings. Different Gelug masters/scholars have different opinions on the question.
Well we don’t really, since Pabhongkha clearly states that Tsongkhapa rejected direct introduction. Are you suggesting that there is some secret teaching in Geluk Pabhongkha didn’t hold?
I said "different Gelug masters/scholars have different opinions on the question." Pabhongka is one - and only one - such master.

So yes, it is quite possible that there were ear whispered transmissions from TK to close disciples which were intentionally not written down/kept from wider circulation.

It is also quite possible that there weren't, and later Gelug Mahamudra masters (such as CG) moved a little from TK's explicit position.

At the end of the day, this is something no one today can really answer with much evidence.
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