Does the Mo Divination System Require Empowerment?

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Ikkyu's_Son
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Does the Mo Divination System Require Empowerment?

Post by Ikkyu's_Son »

Question is the title.

I own a text on the system, but see no mention of empowerment necessary. That being said, can't find too much online regarding it, except of course a small amount of conflicting opinions and views. It doesn't seem to be a topic discussed too much.

Or is it open for use and study similar to Tarot or I Ching?
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Re: Does the Mo Divination System Require Empowerment?

Post by pemachophel »

There are a number of different systems of mo/divination in Vajrayana Buddhism. Which system are you inquiring about?

In general, Vajrayana divination requires empowerment, oral transmission, and oral explanation or commentary and a certain amount of accomplishment (i.e., typically saying a certain mantra x-number of times or having some particular experience in relationship to saying the mantra). Thus it is typically not something that anyone can do. Mostly it is Lamas and yogis/yoginis who do divination, not ordinary laypeople. Also in general, the divinatory answer is believed to come from a particular Buddha, Bodhisatva, or Deity depending on the system. So the prerequisites are meant to establish a relationship with the particular Deity -- to "accomplish" that Deity. The more accomplishment, the more accurate/dependable the answer.

There is a book in English by the great Ju Mipham about doing Vajrayana divination using a special die (singular of dice). In this system, the Deity involved is Manjushri. In addition to receiving a Manjushri empowerment, my Teacher required anyone wanting to do this system to say at least one million repetitions of Manjushri's mantra. However, those recitations needed to be done in an intensive manner, not lacksadaisically over a long period of time. Best was in retreat. There needed to be certain degree of samadhi. I know at least one student who did the requisite number but didn't really get the right result or effect. Best is to do this kind of retreat or practice under the direct supervision of a Teacher Who Themself has achieved the ability.

Depending on the type of divination, a karmic predisposition may also play a part. For instance, in mirror divination (pra bab, the form of Vajrayana divination I am most familiar with), a person may be born with pra mig, literally divination eyes. This ability often runs in families. If one has pra mig, it is much easier and quicker for them to develop the siddhi of mirror divination.
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Re: Does the Mo Divination System Require Empowerment?

Post by Hazel »

pemachophel wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:30 pm There are a number of different systems of mo/divination in Vajrayana Buddhism. Which system are you inquiring about?

In general, Vajrayana divination requires empowerment, oral transmission, and oral explanation or commentary and a certain amount of accomplishment (i.e., typically saying a certain mantra x-number of times or having some particular experience in relationship to saying the mantra). Thus it is typically not something that anyone can do. Mostly it is Lamas and yogis/yoginis who do divination, not ordinary laypeople. Also in general, the divinatory answer is believed to come from a particular Buddha, Bodhisatva, or Deity depending on the system. So the prerequisites are meant to establish a relationship with the particular Deity -- to "accomplish" that Deity. The more accomplishment, the more accurate/dependable the answer.

There is a book in English by the great Ju Mipham about doing Vajrayana divination using a special die (singular of dice). In this system, the Deity involved is Manjushri. In addition to receiving a Manjushri empowerment, my Teacher required anyone wanting to do this system to say at least one million repetitions of Manjushri's mantra. However, those recitations needed to be done in an intensive manner, not lacksadaisically over a long period of time. Best was in retreat. There needed to be certain degree of samadhi. I know at least one student who did the requisite number but didn't really get the right result or effect. Best is to do this kind of retreat or practice under the direct supervision of a Teacher Who Themself has achieved the ability.

Depending on the type of divination, a karmic predisposition may also play a part. For instance, in mirror divination (pra bab, the form of Vajrayana divination I am most familiar with), a person may be born with pra mig, literally divination eyes. This ability often runs in families. If one has pra mig, it is much easier and quicker for them to develop the siddhi of mirror divination.
Thank you. This is excellent information.

I think it's probably also really important to question one's own motivations. I've wanted to try to pursue this, but (in addition to not having the conditions as described above) I start asking myself, what's the real reason I'd want to learn? Is it to help people or is it to feel powerful or special or entertained?
Happy Pride month to my queer dharma siblings!

What do you see when you turn out the lights?
Ikkyu's_Son
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Re: Does the Mo Divination System Require Empowerment?

Post by Ikkyu's_Son »

pemachophel wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:30 pm There are a number of different systems of mo/divination in Vajrayana Buddhism. Which system are you inquiring about?

In general, Vajrayana divination requires empowerment, oral transmission, and oral explanation or commentary and a certain amount of accomplishment (i.e., typically saying a certain mantra x-number of times or having some particular experience in relationship to saying the mantra). Thus it is typically not something that anyone can do. Mostly it is Lamas and yogis/yoginis who do divination, not ordinary laypeople. Also in general, the divinatory answer is believed to come from a particular Buddha, Bodhisatva, or Deity depending on the system. So the prerequisites are meant to establish a relationship with the particular Deity -- to "accomplish" that Deity. The more accomplishment, the more accurate/dependable the answer.

There is a book in English by the great Ju Mipham about doing Vajrayana divination using a special die (singular of dice). In this system, the Deity involved is Manjushri. In addition to receiving a Manjushri empowerment, my Teacher required anyone wanting to do this system to say at least one million repetitions of Manjushri's mantra. However, those recitations needed to be done in an intensive manner, not lacksadaisically over a long period of time. Best was in retreat. There needed to be certain degree of samadhi. I know at least one student who did the requisite number but didn't really get the right result or effect. Best is to do this kind of retreat or practice under the direct supervision of a Teacher Who Themself has achieved the ability.

Depending on the type of divination, a karmic predisposition may also play a part. For instance, in mirror divination (pra bab, the form of Vajrayana divination I am most familiar with), a person may be born with pra mig, literally divination eyes. This ability often runs in families. If one has pra mig, it is much easier and quicker for them to develop the siddhi of mirror divination.
The book I referenced was indeed the one by Jamgon Mipham. It has been a bit since I've cracked it open, but to my recollection there was no empowerment required, just the mantra recitation as you mentioned. It did read as though one could divine for oneself if they so desired in this system however.

Since this was one of the only books I could find in the subject, I was not aware of the other approaches to Mo, and I was wanting to learn further.
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Re: Does the Mo Divination System Require Empowerment?

Post by pemachophel »

The book was written for Tibetans at the end of the 19th century. It would have been read primarily by other Lamas, monks and nuns, yogis, and yoginis. Ju Mipham was not writing to the general Tibetan populace. So I think we can say that He made certain assumptions about what His audience already knew. As for the modern publisher, ...
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Re: Does the Mo Divination System Require Empowerment?

Post by Ikkyu's_Son »

pemachophel wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 8:34 pm The book was written for Tibetans at the end of the 19th century. It would have been read primarily by other Lamas, monks and nuns, yogis, and yoginis. Ju Mipham was not writing to the general Tibetan populace. So I think we can say that He made certain assumptions about what His audience already knew. As for the modern publisher, ...
Interesting. I was not aware of this. It has been a bit of time since I've last read through it.

Looking through it now however to refresh myself, there really doesn't seem to be any empowerments necessary, and the visualization of Manjushri provided does not appear to be a restricted practice either, as it is visualizing the deity as a separate entity. I could be wrong about that opinion however, but speaking from other Buddhist and tantric practices I've come across, it doesn't require empowerment unless you are visualizing yourself as the deity.

And this is where the differing opinions and arguments come in when I have tried to find answers, because some traditions say empowerment, other do not.

On one hand, I'd like to believe that the credentials and weight of the translators and publishers of the book, they would have mentioned if you needed empowerments, teachings, or intense retreats before engaging with this system of Mo. On the other hand, There's a lot of practices floating around out there in books that have been published with no real indication of suitability or not, for various reasons.
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Re: Does the Mo Divination System Require Empowerment?

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I posed this question to a high Sakya lama regarding the same text, and he told me I needed to do a Manjushri retreat in order for it to work.
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Re: Does the Mo Divination System Require Empowerment?

Post by pemachophel »

Of course there are empowerments for kriya, carya, and yoga tantras. It's not just maha and anu yogas that require these. Always best to get the empowerments. They may be, however, only a je-nang or a pe-wang. Whether this Manjushri mantra "requires" an empowerment, I'll let someone else answer that.
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Re: Does the Mo Divination System Require Empowerment?

Post by pemachophel »

So I went back and looked in my list of empowerments and transmissions and see that I have received the Manushri mantra several times as a simple lung.
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Re: Does the Mo Divination System Require Empowerment?

Post by Ikkyu's_Son »

pemachophel wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 5:38 pm So I went back and looked in my list of empowerments and transmissions and see that I have received the Manushri mantra several times as a simple lung.
I can see having the lung for the Manjushri mantra being useful for this system, but still can't find a definitive answer on it being required. When in doubt, empowerment is safest route I assume.

I For a little background on why I'm searching for a more definitive answer, I do practice Tarot, more as a resource for poking and prodding my own psyche and interpretations. When I cam across the Mo system as presented in the book, it is a system is that, while it does have many layers the more you study, the initial reading is less "esoteric" than Tarot, with actual "yes and do this" or "no and here's why" answers than Tarot has.

May not be the best way to approach divinatory practices with hope for "firm" answers. Still, I find interest in the system and wish to respectfully approach it.
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Re: Does the Mo Divination System Require Empowerment?

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Gaden_Wangchuk wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 11:26 pm
pemachophel wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 5:38 pm So I went back and looked in my list of empowerments and transmissions and see that I have received the Manushri mantra several times as a simple lung.
I can see having the lung for the Manjushri mantra being useful for this system, but still can't find a definitive answer on it being required. When in doubt, empowerment is safest route I assume.

I For a little background on why I'm searching for a more definitive answer, I do practice Tarot, more as a resource for poking and prodding my own psyche and interpretations. When I cam across the Mo system as presented in the book, it is a system is that, while it does have many layers the more you study, the initial reading is less "esoteric" than Tarot, with actual "yes and do this" or "no and here's why" answers than Tarot has.

May not be the best way to approach divinatory practices with hope for "firm" answers. Still, I find interest in the system and wish to respectfully approach it.
Have you ever considered requesting a divination from someone who has accomplishment in the practice?
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Re: Does the Mo Divination System Require Empowerment?

Post by Malcolm »

Gaden_Wangchuk wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 11:26 pm
I can see having the lung for the Manjushri mantra being useful for this system, but still can't find a definitive answer on it being required.
All mantras require a lung.

A friend of mine, an old student of HH Sakya Trichen, went to him for a mo. HHST went to get his dice, stopped, and asked my friend, "Do you need the dice?"
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Re: Does the Mo Divination System Require Empowerment?

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Loppon-la, good story, and definitely to the point. H.H. Sakya Trizin is Manjushri.

In the pra bab/mirror divination system that Lama Dawa Chodrak practiced, there are three levels of accomplishment. The first two need the mirror, but the third does not. Towards the end of His life, Lama Dawa would use the mirror if people asked for that, but if I asked Him a question, He would just look up a bit, stay silent for a moment, and give the answer.
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Re: Does the Mo Divination System Require Empowerment?

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pemachophel wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 5:38 pm Loppon-la, good story, and definitely to the point. H.H. Sakya Trizin is Manjushri.

In the pra bab/mirror divination system that Lama Dawa Chodrak practiced, there are three levels of accomplishment. The first two need the mirror, but the third does not. Towards the end of His life, Lama Dawa would use the mirror if people asked for that, but if I asked Him a question, He would just look up a bit, stay silent for a moment, and give the answer.
I saw a similar instance with HHST once, when my friend had asked whether it was better to remain ordained or not.

He rolled the dice, and according to the answer provided said "It's the same.."

And then he stared into space for a little bit and said " But, lay person would be a little better"

Also, when we walked in, he already had the dice in his hand waiting for the divination, even though no one had requested one yet

A similar instance when I asked him to Bless a Phurba once, and as soon as I took it out of my jacket, before I could unroll it from cloth I had packed it in and identify what it was he said "A Phurba" though it could have been any kind of object inside.

Manjushri indeed.
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Re: Does the Mo Divination System Require Empowerment?

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Sonam Wangchug wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 1:52 pm Have you ever considered requesting a divination from someone who has accomplishment in the practice?
I have, but I am much more interested in learning the system for myself if possible.
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Re: Does the Mo Divination System Require Empowerment?

Post by Ikkyu's_Son »

Malcolm wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 2:07 pm
All mantras require a lung.
As I'm a novice, I wasn't aware of this.

I've heard of lungs increasing connection and efficacy of mantras, and there are most certainly mantras restricted to certain practices that would require empowerment, but ALL mantras?

It surprises me to learn this considering the many cultural practices of reciting mantras for various worldly and spiritual goals whether monastic or laity.
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Re: Does the Mo Divination System Require Empowerment?

Post by Malcolm »

Gaden_Wangchuk wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 9:45 pm but ALL mantras?
All mantras.

There exist dharāṇis, which may not require a lung. But all mantras do, especially for texts like Mipham's Mañjuśrī dice mo.
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Re: Does the Mo Divination System Require Empowerment?

Post by zerwe »

Malcolm wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 10:07 pm
Gaden_Wangchuk wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 9:45 pm but ALL mantras?
All mantras.

There exist dharāṇis, which may not require a lung. But all mantras do, especially for texts like Mipham's Mañjuśrī dice mo.
Mipham's dice Mo, while it may not be necessary, I am under the impression that the accumulations (and the "blessing" of the dice) are completed during a Le Rung style retreat.

So, the short answer is that "Mo" itself may not require empowerment--transmission would be good, but the procedures/preliminaries in a manner of speaking do?

Shaun :namaste:
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Re: Does the Mo Divination System Require Empowerment?

Post by nyonchung »

zerwe wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 10:15 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 10:07 pm
Gaden_Wangchuk wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 9:45 pm but ALL mantras?
All mantras.

There exist dharāṇis, which may not require a lung. But all mantras do, especially for texts like Mipham's Mañjuśrī dice mo.
Mipham's dice Mo, while it may not be necessary, I am under the impression that the accumulations (and the "blessing" of the dice) are completed during a Le Rung style retreat.

So, the short answer is that "Mo" itself may not require empowerment--transmission would be good, but the procedures/preliminaries in a manner of speaking do?

Shaun :namaste:
Sufficient practice, and of course some clarity and stability of mind. And Manjushri inseparable from one's own teacher.
The anedoct about Sakya Tridzin is nice, I experienced the same with one of my teachers. One also has to think carefully about the usefulness of the question, its wording and this sometimes allow us to find a solution or an answer.
Many obstacles are of our own making.

But mistakes happen, and one of my teachers stopped accepting making mos (he was quite good), after an erroneous result - he told me that was too dangerous.
No 100% garantee.
But in one case, the Ju Mipham's system saved my life.

Actually a lot of lay Tibetan, Sherpa, etc. people do mos for themselves actually.
Mirror divination is a bit of a family tradition among Sherpas. But oracles (lhawa) are not well-considered nowadays.
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Me and the madman don't have a guide- Me and the rainbow have no experiences
Me, the sun and the moon have no certitudes - Me and the jewel bear no fruit" - Dampa Sanggyé as quoted by Domar Mingyur Dorjé (born 1675)
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