Is it permissable in Guru Yoga to choose an historical guru?

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FiveSkandhas
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Is it permissable in Guru Yoga to choose an historical guru?

Post by FiveSkandhas »

Forgive me for what seems like a silly question even to me...but I know very little about Vajrayana guru yoga.

So..it it technically possible to claim your "root guru", main teacher, or primary guru (whatever the correct terminology) is somebody like Padmasambhava, Milarepa, Marpa, etc.? That is, is it possible to establish a guru-student relationship with a non-living figure?

I am guessing the answer is "no," but I wonder if there is perhaps any precedence for this.

The reason I ask at all is this interesting quote from Gampopa: "For anyone who wishes to see me, studying THE JEWEL ORNAMENT OF LIBERATION and the PRECIOUS GARLAND OF THE EXCELLENT PATH is the same as meeting me."

There are also terma treasure revealers who seem to establish some sort of direct contact with Padmasambhava or perhaps a Dakini (?) as the source of their wisdom, rather than an in-the-flesh living human teacher.


What if we were to take Gampopa at his literal word? Could someone "meet him" and choose him as a guru through reading his text, as he rather baldly states?

Forgive my ignorance, by inclination and experience I'm more of a nembutsu mumbler of the far eastern stamp than a Himalayan vajra-wielder.
"One should cultivate contemplation in one’s foibles. The foibles are like fish, and contemplation is like fishing hooks. If there are no fish, then the fishing hooks have no use. The bigger the fish is, the better the result we will get. As long as the fishing hooks keep at it, all foibles will eventually be contained and controlled at will." -Zhiyi

"Just be kind." -Atisha
Charlie123
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Re: Is it permissable in Guru Yoga to choose an historical guru?

Post by Charlie123 »

FiveSkandhas wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 9:48 am Forgive me for what seems like a silly question even to me...but I know very little about Vajrayana guru yoga.

So..it it technically possible to claim your "root guru", main teacher, or primary guru (whatever the correct terminology) is somebody like Padmasambhava, Milarepa, Marpa, etc.? That is, is it possible to establish a guru-student relationship with a non-living figure?

I am guessing the answer is "no," but I wonder if there is perhaps any precedence for this.

The reason I ask at all is this interesting quote from Gampopa: "For anyone who wishes to see me, studying THE JEWEL ORNAMENT OF LIBERATION and the PRECIOUS GARLAND OF THE EXCELLENT PATH is the same as meeting me."

There are also terma treasure revealers who seem to establish some sort of direct contact with Padmasambhava or perhaps a Dakini (?) as the source of their wisdom, rather than an in-the-flesh living human teacher.


What if we were to take Gampopa at his literal word? Could someone "meet him" and choose him as a guru through reading his text, as he rather baldly states?

Forgive my ignorance, by inclination and experience I'm more of a nembutsu mumbler of the far eastern stamp than a Himalayan vajra-wielder.
No, ordinary beings need a living, breathing guru. Terma and pure vision teachings can only be received by people who have already reached a high level of realization. These realized people also depended on living, breathing gurus at some point in their lives. It is pretty common to encounter Vajrayana practitioners who are very confused about this subject.
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FiveSkandhas
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Re: Is it permissable in Guru Yoga to choose an historical guru?

Post by FiveSkandhas »

Charlie123 wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 10:11 am
FiveSkandhas wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 9:48 am Forgive me for what seems like a silly question even to me...but I know very little about Vajrayana guru yoga.

So..it it technically possible to claim your "root guru", main teacher, or primary guru (whatever the correct terminology) is somebody like Padmasambhava, Milarepa, Marpa, etc.? That is, is it possible to establish a guru-student relationship with a non-living figure?

I am guessing the answer is "no," but I wonder if there is perhaps any precedence for this.

The reason I ask at all is this interesting quote from Gampopa: "For anyone who wishes to see me, studying THE JEWEL ORNAMENT OF LIBERATION and the PRECIOUS GARLAND OF THE EXCELLENT PATH is the same as meeting me."

There are also terma treasure revealers who seem to establish some sort of direct contact with Padmasambhava or perhaps a Dakini (?) as the source of their wisdom, rather than an in-the-flesh living human teacher.


What if we were to take Gampopa at his literal word? Could someone "meet him" and choose him as a guru through reading his text, as he rather baldly states?

Forgive my ignorance, by inclination and experience I'm more of a nembutsu mumbler of the far eastern stamp than a Himalayan vajra-wielder.
No, ordinary beings need a living, breathing guru. Terma and pure vision teachings can only be received by people who have already reached a high level of realization. These realized people also depended on living, breathing gurus at some point in their lives. It is pretty common to encounter Vajrayana practitioners who are very confused about this subject.
Thank you for the clear and helpful answer.
"One should cultivate contemplation in one’s foibles. The foibles are like fish, and contemplation is like fishing hooks. If there are no fish, then the fishing hooks have no use. The bigger the fish is, the better the result we will get. As long as the fishing hooks keep at it, all foibles will eventually be contained and controlled at will." -Zhiyi

"Just be kind." -Atisha
merilingpa
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Re: Is it permissable in Guru Yoga to choose an historical guru?

Post by merilingpa »

I would say thats fine to take a historical figure as an objekt of Guruyoga.
There is even a terma of Jatsun Nyingpo that focuses on Gampopa as Guru. Practiced in the Karma Kagyu a lot.
But if you want to study Dharma genuinely you will need a living teacher or guru.

All the best...
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Berry
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Re: Is it permissable in Guru Yoga to choose an historical guru?

Post by Berry »

Hi FiveSkandhas,

It also might be helpful for you to read "Path to Buddhahood" -teachings on Gampopa's Jewel Ornament of Liberation, by Ringu Tulku.

https://www.shambhala.com/path-to-buddhahood.html


:reading:
Leave the polluted water of conceptual thoughts in its natural clarity. Without affirming or denying appearances, leave them as they are. When there is neither acceptance nor rejection, mind is liberated into mahāmudra.

~ Tilopa
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Sonam Wangchug
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Re: Is it permissable in Guru Yoga to choose an historical guru?

Post by Sonam Wangchug »

It is permissible, and it is valid.

Several of the Kagyu forefathers said in the future degenerate age beings could rely on them directly as a Root-Guru which is especially relevant the fewer and fewer genuine lama's that exist

I will follow up with citation when I find it.

That's whether it's possible, however it would still likely be advisable to make contact with a living teacher, when the opportunity and karmic link manifests itself.

I think there are still a few real ones floating on this globe with us.
"To have confidence in the teacher is the ultimate refuge." -Rigzin Jigme Lingpa
Malcolm
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Re: Is it permissable in Guru Yoga to choose an historical guru?

Post by Malcolm »

Sonam Wangchug wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 12:40 pm It is permissible, and it is valid.
Neither permissible, valid, nor taught in any tantra.

A root guru is a person from whom one has at minimum received empowerments. No empowerment, no guru.

It’s amazing how people like you get all upset about minor issues, but boldly proclaims doctrines that harm the essence of the Dharma with barely a thought.
zerwe
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Re: Is it permissable in Guru Yoga to choose an historical guru?

Post by zerwe »

Charlie123 wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 10:11 am
FiveSkandhas wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 9:48 am Forgive me for what seems like a silly question even to me...but I know very little about Vajrayana guru yoga.

So..it it technically possible to claim your "root guru", main teacher, or primary guru (whatever the correct terminology) is somebody like Padmasambhava, Milarepa, Marpa, etc.? That is, is it possible to establish a guru-student relationship with a non-living figure?

I am guessing the answer is "no," but I wonder if there is perhaps any precedence for this.

The reason I ask at all is this interesting quote from Gampopa: "For anyone who wishes to see me, studying THE JEWEL ORNAMENT OF LIBERATION and the PRECIOUS GARLAND OF THE EXCELLENT PATH is the same as meeting me."

There are also terma treasure revealers who seem to establish some sort of direct contact with Padmasambhava or perhaps a Dakini (?) as the source of their wisdom, rather than an in-the-flesh living human teacher.


What if we were to take Gampopa at his literal word? Could someone "meet him" and choose him as a guru through reading his text, as he rather baldly states?

Forgive my ignorance, by inclination and experience I'm more of a nembutsu mumbler of the far eastern stamp than a Himalayan vajra-wielder.
No, ordinary beings need a living, breathing guru. Terma and pure vision teachings can only be received by people who have already reached a high level of realization. These realized people also depended on living, breathing gurus at some point in their lives. It is pretty common to encounter Vajrayana practitioners who are very confused about this subject.
While your response is spot on. I'm not really sure about this last statement
It is pretty common to encounter Vajrayana practitioners who are very confused about this subject.
How could one receive empowerment, instructions, and teachings (thus entering into the vehicle) and be confused about who their root guru is?

Shaun :namaste:
Soma999
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Re: Is it permissable in Guru Yoga to choose an historical guru?

Post by Soma999 »

It is possible to connect to guru from the past, and receive even transmissions from them. It is possible for many reasons. When a guru acheive the Dharmakaya, any guru can manifest through their body. So at a certain point, there is no more lineage, only the connection with the Guru.

That being said, it is better to start with a real flesh and bone guru so you can receive personal guidance, and extends from here. Otherwise, it is too easy to misleads oneself.

There are Guru disciple relationship in all traditions. « Empowerment » is a ritual. The connection with a guru can manifests in a myriad of way, transmission also.
Malcolm
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Re: Is it permissable in Guru Yoga to choose an historical guru?

Post by Malcolm »

zerwe wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 1:41 pm
It is pretty common to encounter Vajrayana practitioners who are very confused about this subject.
How could one receive empowerment, instructions, and teachings (thus entering into the vehicle) and be confused about who their root guru is?
People are often confused about this point, and think that only one guru can be a root guru or mūlaguru. In reality, any qualified person from whom one has received the four empowerments in a proper way is one's root guru.

In Nyingma and Kagyu circles is common to understand that one's principle guru is the person from whom one has received definitive instructions through which one has understood the nature of the mind. The Sakyapas and others talk about one's karmically linked root guru as being one's principle guru, which has the same meaning as the Nyingma/Kagyu idea.

Some people think that their root guru is the person from whom they received refuge, this is another common misunderstanding. Some people in organizations like Shambhala, are encouraged to think dead teachers like Trungpa are their root guru, thus adding more confusion to the pot. Some people think they can just pick a famous figure, like HHDL, the Karmapa, etc., to be their root guru without having ever received teachings from them, but this is yet another misunderstanding.

All of this confusion comes about from not studying proper commentaries like the 50 Verses on guru devotion, and other texts.
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Re: Is it permissable in Guru Yoga to choose an historical guru?

Post by Malcolm »

FiveSkandhas wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 9:48 am
The reason I ask at all is this interesting quote from Gampopa: "For anyone who wishes to see me, studying THE JEWEL ORNAMENT OF LIBERATION and the PRECIOUS GARLAND OF THE EXCELLENT PATH is the same as meeting me."
This simply means that if you met Gampopa, he couldn't tell you anything more about the essentials of Dharma than what's contained in these two texts.

It is just a restatement of the Buddha's declaration. "Those who see dependent origination see the Dharma. Those who see the Dharma see me."
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Re: Is it permissable in Guru Yoga to choose an historical guru?

Post by Malcolm »

Soma999 wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 2:46 pm « Empowerment » is a ritual.
Not just a ritual. It is misunderstandings like this that cause harm to the teachings.

There is no guru in Vajrayāna without empowerment, and there is no authorization to explain the details of Vajrayāna practice at all to someone who has not received empowerment. The Mahāmudrātilaka make this abundantly clear:

First, once empowerments are conferred
upon the disciple,
at that time the great secret may be explained
because they have become suitable recipients.

If there is no empowerment, there will be no siddhi,
just as there is no oil from pressing sand.

When someone arrogantly explicates
the collection of tantras to one lacking empowerment,
both master and disciple will go to hell
as soon as they die, even if they attained siddhi.
Charlie123
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Re: Is it permissable in Guru Yoga to choose an historical guru?

Post by Charlie123 »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 3:00 pm
zerwe wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 1:41 pm
It is pretty common to encounter Vajrayana practitioners who are very confused about this subject.
How could one receive empowerment, instructions, and teachings (thus entering into the vehicle) and be confused about who their root guru is?
Some people in organizations like Shambhala, are encouraged to think dead teachers like Trungpa are their root guru, thus adding more confusion to the pot. Some people think they can just pick a famous figure, like HHDL, the Karmapa, etc., to be their root guru without having ever received teachings from them, but this is yet another misunderstanding.

Hi Shaun,

What Malcolm wrote above is what I meant. Also, I had this quote from Norbu Rinpoche in mind as I was reading the original post:
Some people, because they are not satisfied by their ordinary relationship with the master, think to themselves, "The master is just an ordinary person who eats spaghetti and drinks wine just like me. But I want to enter into direct contact with the Buddha or with Padmasambhava." We all have this attitude a little deep down in ourselves, because the principal cause of birth in the human realm is pride. But it is, in reality, very difficult to enter into contact with the Buddha if we do not recognize the Buddha in our master; in fact, the true Buddha, for the disciple, is the master.

Chogyal Namkhai Norbu. Dzogchen (Kindle Locations 971-974). Kindle Edition.
Last edited by Charlie123 on Thu Oct 28, 2021 4:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Soma999
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Re: Is it permissable in Guru Yoga to choose an historical guru?

Post by Soma999 »

I understand, you speak from a specific point of view, with tantric texts to explain what you say.

What i am saying is that the essence of empowerment is not necessarily dependent upon a specific form.

Life is bigger than any texts. I highly respect texts by the way.
zerwe
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Re: Is it permissable in Guru Yoga to choose an historical guru?

Post by zerwe »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 3:00 pm
zerwe wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 1:41 pm
It is pretty common to encounter Vajrayana practitioners who are very confused about this subject.
How could one receive empowerment, instructions, and teachings (thus entering into the vehicle) and be confused about who their root guru is?
People are often confused about this point, and think that only one guru can be a root guru or mūlaguru. In reality, any qualified person from whom one has received the four empowerments in a proper way is one's root guru.

In Nyingma and Kagyu circles is common to understand that one's principle guru is the person from whom one has received definitive instructions through which one has understood the nature of the mind. The Sakyapas and others talk about one's karmically linked root guru as being one's principle guru, which has the same meaning as the Nyingma/Kagyu idea.

Some people think that their root guru is the person from whom they received refuge, this is another common misunderstanding. Some people in organizations like Shambhala, are encouraged to think dead teachers like Trungpa are their root guru, thus adding more confusion to the pot. Some people think they can just pick a famous figure, like HHDL, the Karmapa, etc., to be their root guru without having ever received teachings from them, but this is yet another misunderstanding.

All of this confusion comes about from not studying proper commentaries like the 50 Verses on guru devotion, and other texts.
Got it, and I know I am preaching to the choir, but I guess I have been fortunate enough to have it spelled out to me early on and throughout my study and practice.

Although, it is taught that we should regard even those from whom we have been taught the alphabet (in the context of learning a "Dharma language") as a guru, my teachers have been pretty explicit about defining the differences between refuge/preceptor/abbot, the guru from a Mahayana perspective, and those whom you have received empowerment, explanation, and instructions --which at that point is among whom your root guru is discovered.

In short, if you are NOT practicing Vajrayana, whoever has had the greatest impact on moving your heart/mind is your root guru.

Otherwise, whoever you first received HYT initiation is your root guru by default.

I catch the drift that, from a Dzogchen perspective, this is whoever you first received direct introduction from?

I understand that there may differences between the two (direct introduction and receiving the 4 empowerments), but I (not a Dzogchen practitioner) tend to equate these as being the relatively the same--I don't think I have the terminology to adequately describe.

And, then there are teachings on how to see all the gurus as one, all as the dharmakaya, and all the activities of many gurus as originating, being initiated, from our root guru.

Shaun :namaste:
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Re: Is it permissable in Guru Yoga to choose an historical guru?

Post by zerwe »

Charlie123 wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 4:13 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 3:00 pm
zerwe wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 1:41 pm


How could one receive empowerment, instructions, and teachings (thus entering into the vehicle) and be confused about who their root guru is?
Some people in organizations like Shambhala, are encouraged to think dead teachers like Trungpa are their root guru, thus adding more confusion to the pot. Some people think they can just pick a famous figure, like HHDL, the Karmapa, etc., to be their root guru without having ever received teachings from them, but this is yet another misunderstanding.

Hi Shaun,

What Malcolm wrote above is what I meant. Also, I had this quote from Norbu Rinpoche in mind as I was reading the original post:
Some people, because they are not satisfied by their ordinary relationship with the master, think to themselves, "The master is just an ordinary person who eats spaghetti and drinks wine just like me. But I want to enter into direct contact with the Buddha or with Padmasambhava." We all have this attitude a little deep down in ourselves, because the principal cause of birth in the human realm is pride. But it is, in reality, very difficult to enter into contact with the Buddha if we do not recognize the Buddha in our master; in fact, the true Buddha, for the disciple, is the master.

Chogyal Namkhai Norbu. Dzogchen (Kindle Locations 971-974). Kindle Edition.
Got it, as I responded to Malcom, I have fortunately had it spelled out to me. Now, with that said, I am sure I am still susceptible to confusion about a great many things.

Shaun :namaste:
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FiveSkandhas
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Re: Is it permissable in Guru Yoga to choose an historical guru?

Post by FiveSkandhas »

Thanks for all the comments. This thread is developing in an interesting direction and I appreciate all of your input.
"One should cultivate contemplation in one’s foibles. The foibles are like fish, and contemplation is like fishing hooks. If there are no fish, then the fishing hooks have no use. The bigger the fish is, the better the result we will get. As long as the fishing hooks keep at it, all foibles will eventually be contained and controlled at will." -Zhiyi

"Just be kind." -Atisha
Archie2009
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Re: Is it permissable in Guru Yoga to choose an historical guru?

Post by Archie2009 »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 3:00 pm
zerwe wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 1:41 pm
It is pretty common to encounter Vajrayana practitioners who are very confused about this subject.
How could one receive empowerment, instructions, and teachings (thus entering into the vehicle) and be confused about who their root guru is?
People are often confused about this point, and think that only one guru can be a root guru or mūlaguru. In reality, any qualified person from whom one has received the four empowerments in a proper way is one's root guru.

In Nyingma and Kagyu circles is common to understand that one's principle guru is the person from whom one has received definitive instructions through which one has understood the nature of the mind. The Sakyapas and others talk about one's karmically linked root guru as being one's principle guru, which has the same meaning as the Nyingma/Kagyu idea.
So, in theory, if a Buddha were to give someone the necessary empowerment(s) and that person as a consequence of that interaction realized the nature of mind, that Buddha would be their root guru?

A beautiful pipe dream and not a solution to the OP's question, as the practitioner would still not get to choose the guru.
Malcolm
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Re: Is it permissable in Guru Yoga to choose an historical guru?

Post by Malcolm »

Soma999 wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 4:23 pm
What i am saying is that the essence of empowerment is not necessarily dependent upon a specific form.
The essence of an empowerment is the arrangement of a special dependent origination by the master upon the disciple according to the methods taught by Buddha Vajradhara in the authoritative tantras, realized by mahāsiddhas, practiced by bodhisattvas, and translated by qualified translators out of Sanskrit and other dialects of India in Tibetan, and thence into English and other languages. There is no other essence than this.

These days however, people take it upon them themselves to just make up whatever doctrine feels good to them, disregarding the clear words of the sūtras and tantras about how to follow a virtuous mentor or a guru. They buy books and attempt to practice their contents without transmission. Such people close the doorway to liberation for themselves by inappropriately using methods taught in the tantras.
Malcolm
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Re: Is it permissable in Guru Yoga to choose an historical guru?

Post by Malcolm »

zerwe wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 4:23 pm In short, if you are NOT practicing Vajrayana, whoever has had the greatest impact on moving your heart/mind is your root guru.
No, there is no such thing in Mahāyāna or for that matter in lower tantra, as a root guru.
Otherwise, whoever you first received HYT initiation is your root guru by default.
Any guru from whom you receive the four empowerments from is a root guru. Not merely the first one from whom one received such as empowerment. If you received Kalacakra from one guru and Hevjara from another, each is your root guru for that system.
I catch the drift that, from a Dzogchen perspective, this is whoever you first received direct introduction from?
No, the one from whom your actual understanding of rig pa arose. Not necessarily the first person one has received Dzogchen transmission from. Case in point, ChNN had already received the complete teachings of Dzogchen from 13 different teachers before he met Chanchub Dorje.
I understand that there may differences between the two (direct introduction and receiving the 4 empowerments), but I (not a Dzogchen practitioner) tend to equate these as being the relatively the same--I don't think I have the terminology to adequately describe.

The fourth empowerment and direct introduction/pointing out are equivalent. In general, Gelukpas and Sakyas do not accept direct introduction as a ripening empowerment. Some Gelukpas do not accept direct introductions at all, even after empowerment. Some Kagyus and generally all Nyingmapas do.

Even so, there is still some argument in Dzogchen tantras which indicate it is much better to receive the four empowerments in the Dzogchen intimate instruction system, and that direct introduction alone is not necessarily sufficient as a ripening empowerment, so even Nyingmapas and Kagyus generally err on the side of caution.
And, then there are teachings on how to see all the gurus as one, all as the dharmakaya, and all the activities of many gurus as originating, being initiated, from our root guru.
Yes, but this is common to all four schools.
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