Opinions on dream yoga course?

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lucidaromulus
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Opinions on dream yoga course?

Post by lucidaromulus »

Hi guys,

What are your views and opinions on this?

https://learn.tricycle.org/p/dream-yoga

R
PeterC
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Re: Opinions on dream yoga course?

Post by PeterC »

Whenever I see sentences like:
As a longtime student of Buddhism, he frequently presents the tradition from a contemporary perspective, blending ancient wisdom with modern tools.
...my immediate reaction is - no thanks.

But in this case, my reaction would be - no thanks. If you're going to learn the yogas of sleep and dream, do it in the context of whichever cycle of practice you're doing, rather than as a standalone 'modernized' thing.
Tata1
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Re: Opinions on dream yoga course?

Post by Tata1 »

lucidaromulus wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 9:26 am Hi guys,

What are your views and opinions on this?

https://learn.tricycle.org/p/dream-yoga

R
He is great.
Soma999
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Re: Opinions on dream yoga course?

Post by Soma999 »

It looks interesting. Dream yoga can be taught as a practice by itself.
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yagmort
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Re: Opinions on dream yoga course?

Post by yagmort »

i wouldn't take whatever this dream yoga course is as a buddhist proper practice. i don't know about dream yogas practices outside of kagyu tradition, but in kagyu dream yoga is a part of Naro Chodrug , Six Yogas/Dharmas of Naropa. Naro Chodrug is a completion level set of practices which require proficiency with tummo, which is the first of 6 Yogas. moreover, you can not practice those without empowerment and having first completed development stage. in other words, from my humble point of view, don't approach this course thinking you ll be doing vajrayana practice.
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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Opinions on dream yoga course?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

He has a couple of books on dream/sleep yoga you can check out to see if you like his flavor of teachings. They aren’t heavy in bells and whistles but they are good and are plenty “Buddhist”.

If the course is anything like those it will basically be dream yoga with ‘Mahayana Buddhism 101’.

His books definitely helped my practice, and I think he’s pretty cool; ymmv.
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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Opinions on dream yoga course?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

yagmort wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 3:22 pm i wouldn't take whatever this dream yoga course is as a buddhist proper practice. i don't know about dream yogas practices outside of kagyu tradition, but in kagyu dream yoga is a part of Naro Chodrug , Six Yogas/Dharmas of Naropa. Naro Chodrug is a completion level set of practices which require proficiency with tummo, which is the first of 6 Yogas. moreover, you can not practice those without empowerment and having first completed development stage. in other words, from my humble point of view, don't approach this course thinking you ll be doing vajrayana practice.
I’ve had dream yoga/sleep yoga teachings that involved empowerment, and also teachings that were very similar to what this guy does from other Lamas. It’s simply not true that sleep/dream is some highly restricted practice outside Kagyu, IME. For that matter, one can even get those kinds of teachings on the Mahayana level, focused on using shamatha/vipaysana as one falls asleep, etc.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

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Tata1
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Re: Opinions on dream yoga course?

Post by Tata1 »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 3:39 pm
yagmort wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 3:22 pm i wouldn't take whatever this dream yoga course is as a buddhist proper practice. i don't know about dream yogas practices outside of kagyu tradition, but in kagyu dream yoga is a part of Naro Chodrug , Six Yogas/Dharmas of Naropa. Naro Chodrug is a completion level set of practices which require proficiency with tummo, which is the first of 6 Yogas. moreover, you can not practice those without empowerment and having first completed development stage. in other words, from my humble point of view, don't approach this course thinking you ll be doing vajrayana practice.
I’ve had dream yoga/sleep yoga teachings that involved empowerment, and also teachings that were very similar to what this guy does from other Lamas. It’s simply not true that sleep/dream is some highly restricted practice outside Kagyu, IME.
He definitley knows what he is teaching. He is a 3 year retreat graduate and whatever he teaches, he teaches it with blessing of his guru.
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Re: Opinions on dream yoga course?

Post by Arnoud »

Tata1 wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 3:42 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 3:39 pm
yagmort wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 3:22 pm i wouldn't take whatever this dream yoga course is as a buddhist proper practice. i don't know about dream yogas practices outside of kagyu tradition, but in kagyu dream yoga is a part of Naro Chodrug , Six Yogas/Dharmas of Naropa. Naro Chodrug is a completion level set of practices which require proficiency with tummo, which is the first of 6 Yogas. moreover, you can not practice those without empowerment and having first completed development stage. in other words, from my humble point of view, don't approach this course thinking you ll be doing vajrayana practice.
I’ve had dream yoga/sleep yoga teachings that involved empowerment, and also teachings that were very similar to what this guy does from other Lamas. It’s simply not true that sleep/dream is some highly restricted practice outside Kagyu, IME.
He definitley knows what he is teaching. He is a 3 year retreat graduate and whatever he teaches, he teaches it with blessing of his guru.
Yeah, just because his last name isn’t Rinpoche doesn’t mean he doesn’t teach real dharma.
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Re: Opinions on dream yoga course?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Tata1 wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 3:42 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 3:39 pm
yagmort wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 3:22 pm i wouldn't take whatever this dream yoga course is as a buddhist proper practice. i don't know about dream yogas practices outside of kagyu tradition, but in kagyu dream yoga is a part of Naro Chodrug , Six Yogas/Dharmas of Naropa. Naro Chodrug is a completion level set of practices which require proficiency with tummo, which is the first of 6 Yogas. moreover, you can not practice those without empowerment and having first completed development stage. in other words, from my humble point of view, don't approach this course thinking you ll be doing vajrayana practice.
I’ve had dream yoga/sleep yoga teachings that involved empowerment, and also teachings that were very similar to what this guy does from other Lamas. It’s simply not true that sleep/dream is some highly restricted practice outside Kagyu, IME.
He definitley knows what he is teaching. He is a 3 year retreat graduate and whatever he teaches, he teaches it with blessing of his guru.
Oh I don’t doubt it, like I said I have a high opinion of him and his work.
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Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

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SilenceMonkey
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Re: Opinions on dream yoga course?

Post by SilenceMonkey »

I think he has some good techniques.

I'm with Peter and Yagmort... I prefer not to receive sacred tantric practices that have been somehow modernized. Then again, he might have realization... who knows.

I also wish he would talk Dharma in a way that upheld its sacredness a bit more... Just an observation from a weekly webcast I tuned into once, but when it came to the sacred and profound aspects, the conversation somehow didn't feel sacred. I guess he may have been catering to an audience of modern people who are more in the dreaming community and less inclined towards Dharma itself.

On the other hand, I do think he's a great Buddhist bridge for people in the world of lucid dreaming.
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Re: Opinions on dream yoga course?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

SilenceMonkey wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 1:57 am I think he has some good techniques.

I'm with Peter and Yagmort... I prefer not to receive sacred tantric practices that have been somehow modernized. Then again, he might have realization... who knows.

I also wish he would talk Dharma in a way that upheld its sacredness a bit more... Just an observation from a weekly webcast I tuned into once, but when it came to the sacred and profound aspects, the conversation somehow didn't feel sacred. I guess he may have been catering to an audience of modern people who are more in the dreaming community and less inclined towards Dharma itself.

On the other hand, I do think he's a great Buddhist bridge for people in the world of lucid dreaming.
I'll bite, how exactly do you think he's "modernizing" anything?

I ask because I've received dream/sleep yoga teachings from:

Sakya teachers
A (mostly) Nyingma teacher
A Bonpo teacher

And what Holecek does is not discernibly a whole lot different to me other than the fact that it does not involve empowerment (neither did some of the others I've had though, and dream yoga in a basic sense does not need to), and he speaks like a Westerner using Western-pysch style terms. He does integrate some stuff from modern lucid dreaming research, but only because it works for just that - it does not affect what he is teaching, but can be a useful add on to anyone seriously engaged in dream practice, and is philosophically neutral.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

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SilenceMonkey
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Re: Opinions on dream yoga course?

Post by SilenceMonkey »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:05 am
SilenceMonkey wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 1:57 am I think he has some good techniques.

I'm with Peter and Yagmort... I prefer not to receive sacred tantric practices that have been somehow modernized. Then again, he might have realization... who knows.

I also wish he would talk Dharma in a way that upheld its sacredness a bit more... Just an observation from a weekly webcast I tuned into once, but when it came to the sacred and profound aspects, the conversation somehow didn't feel sacred. I guess he may have been catering to an audience of modern people who are more in the dreaming community and less inclined towards Dharma itself.

On the other hand, I do think he's a great Buddhist bridge for people in the world of lucid dreaming.
I'll bite, how exactly do you think he's "modernizing" anything?

I ask because I've received dream/sleep yoga teachings from:

Sakya teachers
A (mostly) Nyingma teacher
A Bonpo teacher

And what Holecek does is not discernibly a whole lot different to me other than the fact that it does not involve empowerment (neither did some of the others I've had though, and dream yoga in a basic sense does not need to), and he speaks like a Westerner using Western-pysch style terms. He does integrate some stuff from modern lucid dreaming research, but only because it works for just that - it does not affect what he is teaching, but can be a useful add on to anyone seriously engaged in dream practice, and is philosophically neutral.
I didn’t stay with it for very long, so I don’t have an in depth critique. I just felt like all the talk about Dzogchen and the three kayas was a bit glib. Dzogchen is the most sacred teaching in Nyingma and Bon traditions, but it was being passed around as if it were a toy.

I’m not sure if the techniques themselves were modified or not. I think that traditionally, they would be learned in strict vajrayana retreat conditions, no?
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Re: Opinions on dream yoga course?

Post by Tata1 »

SilenceMonkey wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 1:57 am I think he has some good techniques.

I'm with Peter and Yagmort... I prefer not to receive sacred tantric practices that have been somehow modernized. Then again, he might have realization... who knows.

I also wish he would talk Dharma in a way that upheld its sacredness a bit more... Just an observation from a weekly webcast I tuned into once, but when it came to the sacred and profound aspects, the conversation somehow didn't feel sacred. I guess he may have been catering to an audience of modern people who are more in the dreaming community and less inclined towards Dharma itself.

On the other hand, I do think he's a great Buddhist bridge for people in the world of lucid dreaming.
What does that even mean? Is tibetan brocade sacred? Or maybe some guy in a thong eating raw fish sacred?. The point of the teaching is to gain knowladge of your relative and absolute condition, it has nothing to do with conforming to some abstract idea of sacred.
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Re: Opinions on dream yoga course?

Post by Tata1 »

SilenceMonkey wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 9:36 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:05 am
SilenceMonkey wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 1:57 am I think he has some good techniques.

I'm with Peter and Yagmort... I prefer not to receive sacred tantric practices that have been somehow modernized. Then again, he might have realization... who knows.

I also wish he would talk Dharma in a way that upheld its sacredness a bit more... Just an observation from a weekly webcast I tuned into once, but when it came to the sacred and profound aspects, the conversation somehow didn't feel sacred. I guess he may have been catering to an audience of modern people who are more in the dreaming community and less inclined towards Dharma itself.

On the other hand, I do think he's a great Buddhist bridge for people in the world of lucid dreaming.
I'll bite, how exactly do you think he's "modernizing" anything?

I ask because I've received dream/sleep yoga teachings from:

Sakya teachers
A (mostly) Nyingma teacher
A Bonpo teacher

And what Holecek does is not discernibly a whole lot different to me other than the fact that it does not involve empowerment (neither did some of the others I've had though, and dream yoga in a basic sense does not need to), and he speaks like a Westerner using Western-pysch style terms. He does integrate some stuff from modern lucid dreaming research, but only because it works for just that - it does not affect what he is teaching, but can be a useful add on to anyone seriously engaged in dream practice, and is philosophically neutral.
I didn’t stay with it for very long, so I don’t have an in depth critique. I just felt like all the talk about Dzogchen and the three kayas was a bit glib. Dzogchen is the most sacred teaching in Nyingma and Bon traditions, but it was being passed around as if it were a toy.

I’m not sure if the techniques themselves were modified or not. I think that traditionally, they would be learned in strict vajrayana retreat conditions, no?
Dream yoga has been taught as a stand alone thing from many teachers. There is nothing weird about this course. The only thing "different" is the introduction of lucid dreaming techniques, which again, many teachers do because they are helpfull for recognizing dreams
lucidaromulus
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Re: Opinions on dream yoga course?

Post by lucidaromulus »

Thank you all for sharing your thoughts.
I've gained some new perspectives from all of your sharings :namaste:
gb9810
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Re: Opinions on dream yoga course?

Post by gb9810 »

Tata1 wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 11:46 am
What does that even mean? Is tibetan brocade sacred? Or maybe some guy in a thong eating raw fish sacred?. The point of the teaching is to gain knowladge of your relative and absolute condition, it has nothing to do with conforming to some abstract idea of sacred.
:twothumbsup:
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Re: Opinions on dream yoga course?

Post by SilenceMonkey »

Andrew Holecek is probably a good teacher, but I have some hesitation when it comes to learning vajrayana from him. My feelings likely say more about me than him. I’m always a bit hesitant when it comes to vajrayana.
Tata1 wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 11:46 am
What does that even mean? Is tibetan brocade sacred? Or maybe some guy in a thong eating raw fish sacred?. The point of the teaching is to gain knowladge of your relative and absolute condition, it has nothing to do with conforming to some abstract idea of sacred.
There’s a lot of truth in this.

And yet, Tibetan brocade isn’t exactly the Dharma...

In general I think it’s good to uphold the dignity of Buddhadharma, to praise and respect it whenever possible.

Many people these days say the words Dzogchen and tantra, samaya, etc... much too lightly. Its like making so many jokes and references to someone like Milarepa. Hearing his name and story should inspire awe, respect and devotion. But instead often his name becomes meaningless when spoken by someone without reverence or faith.

Often when people talk too much about the profound, or do so without an idea of what it really means, the meaning is quickly lost. (I’m a great violator of this, and I speak from a feeling of regret.)

Maybe this is especially relevant on an online forum about Buddhism. Anyone can say anything, and things can become superficial.

Sometimes it’s best not to even engage in these kinds of conversations...
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yagmort
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Re: Opinions on dream yoga course?

Post by yagmort »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 3:39 pm ... It’s simply not true that sleep/dream is some highly restricted practice outside Kagyu, IME. For that matter, one can even get those kinds of teachings on the Mahayana level, focused on using shamatha/vipaysana as one falls asleep, etc.
i am not adressing if it restricted/open, if it is helpful or not or if this guy good/bad, qualified or not. i merely adressed the kagyu point of view on dream yoga. in Naro Chödrug, one first gains proficiency in tummo to be able to bring the subtle winds into the central channel, melt tigles and develop 4 blisses.
then one need to train in luminous clarity/clear light, specifically clear light of sleep being the prerequisite for dream yoga. i also tried to emphasized that Naro Chödrug is taught as a set where things work together you may say in synergy, amplifying each other. in this tradition it is not a common approach to dissect one particular yoga thinking just one will be sufficient to attain enlightenment. it simply not gonna work without tummo.

heres the quote from Mullin's book of six yogas of Naropa as presented according to Geluk/Tsongkapa view:

..The next aspect of the illusory body training involves working with the dream state. In the actual application of dream yoga it is necessary to borrow the technology from the clear light doctrine related to meditating on and retaining the clear light of sleep; for although a small degree of dream yoga can be implemented on the basis of conscious resolution conjoined with a conventional meditational technique, such as shamata or vipasyana, the degree of proficiency required in the Six Yogas emanates from the foundation, the inner heat doctrine, and what the meditator has achieved by means of it in terms of the yogic ability to induce the elemental dissolutions and consciously experience the stages of that dissolution, from the vision of the mirage up to the emergence of the clear light.
The ability to induce these dissolutions and retain them at their various phases during waking state meditation is instrumental to the application of the technology at the time of sleep and dream.
Tsongkhapa points this out again and again. When the ability is present in the waking state, implementing it in sleep and dream is a simple matter. As he puts it,
In the first of these ... during the waking state one gathers the vital energies into the central channel and dissolves them, inducing the experiences of the four emptinesses. The manner of the application is that in the process of first retaining the clear light of sleep one cultivates awareness of the four emptinesses of sleep. After that, when dreams occur one recognizes them as such. When awareness of the four emptinesses of sleep is present, no other technique for retention of awareness in dreams is required.



Tata1 wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 3:42 pm ...whatever he teaches, he teaches it with blessing of his guru.
how do you know? he neither mentions his guru nor his blessings. he didn't even mention what tradition he teach dream yoga according to.

anyway, i think OP got a scope of opinions about the subject to make a decision.
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Tata1
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Re: Opinions on dream yoga course?

Post by Tata1 »

yagmort wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 2:08 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 3:39 pm ... It’s simply not true that sleep/dream is some highly restricted practice outside Kagyu, IME. For that matter, one can even get those kinds of teachings on the Mahayana level, focused on using shamatha/vipaysana as one falls asleep, etc.
i am not adressing if it restricted/open, if it is helpful or not or if this guy good/bad, qualified or not. i merely adressed the kagyu point of view on dream yoga. in Naro Chödrug, one first gains proficiency in tummo to be able to bring the subtle winds into the central channel, melt tigles and develop 4 blisses.
then one need to train in luminous clarity/clear light, specifically clear light of sleep being the prerequisite for dream yoga. i also tried to emphasized that Naro Chödrug is taught as a set where things work together you may say in synergy, amplifying each other. in this tradition it is not a common approach to dissect one particular yoga thinking just one will be sufficient to attain enlightenment. it simply not gonna work without tummo.

heres the quote from Mullin's book of six yogas of Naropa as presented according to Geluk/Tsongkapa view:

..The next aspect of the illusory body training involves working with the dream state. In the actual application of dream yoga it is necessary to borrow the technology from the clear light doctrine related to meditating on and retaining the clear light of sleep; for although a small degree of dream yoga can be implemented on the basis of conscious resolution conjoined with a conventional meditational technique, such as shamata or vipasyana, the degree of proficiency required in the Six Yogas emanates from the foundation, the inner heat doctrine, and what the meditator has achieved by means of it in terms of the yogic ability to induce the elemental dissolutions and consciously experience the stages of that dissolution, from the vision of the mirage up to the emergence of the clear light.
The ability to induce these dissolutions and retain them at their various phases during waking state meditation is instrumental to the application of the technology at the time of sleep and dream.
Tsongkhapa points this out again and again. When the ability is present in the waking state, implementing it in sleep and dream is a simple matter. As he puts it,
In the first of these ... during the waking state one gathers the vital energies into the central channel and dissolves them, inducing the experiences of the four emptinesses. The manner of the application is that in the process of first retaining the clear light of sleep one cultivates awareness of the four emptinesses of sleep. After that, when dreams occur one recognizes them as such. When awareness of the four emptinesses of sleep is present, no other technique for retention of awareness in dreams is required.



Tata1 wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 3:42 pm ...whatever he teaches, he teaches it with blessing of his guru.
how do you know? he neither mentions his guru nor his blessings. he didn't even mention what tradition he teach dream yoga according to.

anyway, i think OP got a scope of opinions about the subject to make a decision.
It takes two seconds to find out who he is and what are his credentials.

Im pretty sure that if this same exact course was given but an asian mean with the title rinpoche this conversation would not be happening.
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