Furthering confidence in mantras

Forum for discussion of Tibetan Buddhism. Questions specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
Post Reply
User avatar
Chenda
Posts: 87
Joined: Wed Sep 15, 2021 1:58 pm

Furthering confidence in mantras

Post by Chenda »

Vajrayana is often referred to as Mantrayana. Whether that's entirely accurate or not is not my concern, however, I see the efficacy of one's mantra recitation to be dependent on one's confidence in them as well (Please correct me if I'm wrong on this). For it to "have power", in a way. I would say I have confidence in my mantras but I feel like I'm lacking in a lot of ways, which is why I'd like to hear more from everyone else.

Do you, assuming you also recite mantras, try to further develop your confidence in the mantras you recite? If you do, please give some examples of practices or techniques that help you do so, beyond continuous and consistent recitation. If not, please also explain why.
With the wisdom of threefold purity, dedicate all the virtue gained from having made such effort toward enlightenment. Dedicate it to clear away the suffering of infinite beings. This is the way of a Bodhisattva.
Gyalsé Ngulchu Tokmé (རྒྱལ་སྲས་དངུལ་ཆུ་ཐོགས་མེད་), The Thirty-Seven Practices of All the Bodhisattvas
User avatar
明安 Myoan
Former staff member
Posts: 2855
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2012 7:11 am
Location: Portland, OR

Re: Furthering confidence in mantras

Post by 明安 Myoan »

You can recite mantras to benefit others, and downplay your role in whether or not the buddhas will listen to a sincere prayer.

Also, Bokar Rinpoche has some lucid explanations on the relationship between our mind, the mantra, and the relevant deity. While the three are not separate, the activity doesn't depend solely on your own ideas and thinking.
I'll look for some quotes.
Namu Amida Butsu
User avatar
Ayu
Global Moderator
Posts: 13255
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2012 8:25 am
Location: Europe

Re: Furthering confidence in mantras

Post by Ayu »

Chenda wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 5:14 am Vajrayana is often referred to as Mantrayana. Whether that's entirely accurate or not is not my concern, however, I see the efficacy of one's mantra recitation to be dependent on one's confidence in them as well (Please correct me if I'm wrong on this). For it to "have power", in a way. I would say I have confidence in my mantras but I feel like I'm lacking in a lot of ways, which is why I'd like to hear more from everyone else.

Do you, assuming you also recite mantras, try to further develop your confidence in the mantras you recite? If you do, please give some examples of practices or techniques that help you do so, beyond continuous and consistent recitation. If not, please also explain why.
In my personal experience, confidence is not the main point. Confidence needs a reason. More important - for me - is a kind of seriousness. This involves concentration, openness, simpleness and (for me) developing a kind of contact to the diety. Other people may view at it differently.
I mean, I can worry if it really works and it works nevertheless. But an outcome appears rather unexpectedly.

For me, affection to the diety helps very much in deepening the practice - and having received an empowerment is an important influencing factor. So, it's both: the spiritual power of the guru and my own willingness and openness.
On the other hand, letting go and just patter the mantra mechanically is no sin, I believe. It's a kind of relaxation, waiting for the precious moments without grasping.
Giovanni
Posts: 765
Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2020 11:07 am

Re: Furthering confidence in mantras

Post by Giovanni »

In the Vajrayana scheme of things manta recitation is not a stand alone activity, although as a device to calm the mind it might have merit. But it’s use and efficacy can only be seen in full as Ayu implies, in relationship to the guru and empowerments received.
User avatar
明安 Myoan
Former staff member
Posts: 2855
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2012 7:11 am
Location: Portland, OR

Re: Furthering confidence in mantras

Post by 明安 Myoan »

Bokar Rinpoche, Chenrezig Lord of Love, p. 37-38 wrote:Mantras are a sound manifestation coming from emptiness. They are the authentic sound of emptiness.

From the point of view of the absolute truth and of emptiness itself, the mantra does not have any existence. There is neither sound nor mantra. Sounds and mantras, as with all other forms of manifestation, are located in the relative realm that arises from emptiness. In the relative realm, sounds, although devoid of their own entity, have the power to designate, name, and act on the mind. When, for instance, someone tells us “You are a fine person” or “You are very disagreeable,” the words “fine” or “disagreeable” are not “things.” They are only sounds that are not either “fine” or “disagreeable” in themselves, but simply evoke the thoughts of “fine” and “disagreeable” and produce an effect on our mind. Similarly, in the relative domain mantras are endowed with an infallible power of action.

Mantras are very often the names of buddhas, bodhisattvas, or deities. For instance, OM MANI PADME HUNG is a way of naming Chenrezig. From an absolute point of view, Chenrezig does not have a name, but he is designated by names in the domain of the relative or literal meaning. These names are the vector of his compassion, grace, and the strength of the wishes he makes for the benefit of beings. In this way the recitation of his name transmits these qualities of his mind, Herein lies the explanation for the beneficial power of his mantra, which is also his name.

As we assimilate ourselves to our own name and are at one with it, in the same way, on the relative level, the mantra is identical with the deity. They form a single reality. When one recites the mantra, this is not other than the deity himself. By reciting the mantra, one receives the grace of the deity; by visualizing the deity, one receives the same grace without any difference.
Namu Amida Butsu
User avatar
PadmaVonSamba
Posts: 9439
Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am

Re: Furthering confidence in mantras

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Personally, I don’t understand by what principle mantras, and for that matter, dharanis, can have any effect beyond that on the mind of the person reciting them.
Mantra, as I understand it, is the audible manifestation of the yidam or deity. So, I get that, for example, within the sadhana practice of Chenrezig a point arises when the six-syllable mantra is recited as part of a visualization. But the idea that mantras and dharanis can be used essentially as magical invocations, I don’t get what logical basis there is for that.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
User avatar
Ayu
Global Moderator
Posts: 13255
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2012 8:25 am
Location: Europe

Re: Furthering confidence in mantras

Post by Ayu »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 3:44 pm Personally, I don’t understand by what principle mantras, and for that matter, dharanis, can have any effect beyond that on the mind of the person reciting them.
Mantra, as I understand it, is the audible manifestation of the yidam or deity. So, I get that, for example, within the sadhana practice of Chenrezig a point arises when the six-syllable mantra is recited as part of a visualization. But the idea that mantras and dharanis can be used essentially as magical invocations, I don’t get what logical basis there is for that.
I once asked this question to a venerable old Tulku Rinpoche who is living in Germany. He answered, these kind of practices can give a tiny impulse to the better.
I imagine, it is something like the butterfly-effect or self-fulfilling prophecy. Anyhow, sometimes it works strongly. :shrug:
User avatar
Könchok Thrinley
Former staff member
Posts: 3275
Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2015 11:18 am
Location: He/Him from EU

Re: Furthering confidence in mantras

Post by Könchok Thrinley »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 3:44 pm Personally, I don’t understand by what principle mantras, and for that matter, dharanis, can have any effect beyond that on the mind of the person reciting them.
Mantra, as I understand it, is the audible manifestation of the yidam or deity. So, I get that, for example, within the sadhana practice of Chenrezig a point arises when the six-syllable mantra is recited as part of a visualization. But the idea that mantras and dharanis can be used essentially as magical invocations, I don’t get what logical basis there is for that.
Well depends on the mantra I'd guess. Some mantras and especially dharanis are basically invocations asking a particular deity or enlightened being for action. In most cases however I understand it as the mantras being like the name of the deity/buddha. Simply a way to get their attention and they knowing our mind and etc, influenc whatever event they can influence. Tantric practices also create relationship with these enlightened beings through offerings, praises, invocations, etc. This is all ofc strictly from dualistic perspective a bit of a secondary function.
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

For those who do virtuous actions,
goodness is what comes to pass.
For those who do non-virtuous actions,
that becomes suffering indeed.

- Arya Sanghata Sutra
User avatar
treehuggingoctopus
Posts: 2507
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 6:26 pm
Location: EU

Re: Furthering confidence in mantras

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

Könchok Thrinley wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 9:40 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 3:44 pm Personally, I don’t understand by what principle mantras, and for that matter, dharanis, can have any effect beyond that on the mind of the person reciting them.
Mantra, as I understand it, is the audible manifestation of the yidam or deity. So, I get that, for example, within the sadhana practice of Chenrezig a point arises when the six-syllable mantra is recited as part of a visualization. But the idea that mantras and dharanis can be used essentially as magical invocations, I don’t get what logical basis there is for that.
Well depends on the mantra I'd guess. Some mantras and especially dharanis are basically invocations asking a particular deity or enlightened being for action. In most cases however I understand it as the mantras being like the name of the deity/buddha. Simply a way to get their attention and they knowing our mind and etc, influence whatever event they can influence. Tantric practices also create relationship with these enlightened beings through offerings, praises, invocations, etc. This is all ofc strictly from dualistic perspective a bit of a secondary function.
Garchen Rinpoche has been (relatively) recently addressing this a lot.
HEGR wrote:Those light rays that you send out in the accomplishment stage are the light rays of Bodhichitta. It is bodhichitta that pervades all sentient beings and since all beings are one with your own mind there is nothing that pervades and nothing that's pervaded because we are all one mind. So during the sending out of light rays a real feeling should arise too and that's the feeling of immeasurable love that is sent out and then made to pervade all sentient beings. You should think that – you should bring to mind all the suffering of sentient beings the suffering of samsara in an instant and think that these light rays of love clear away all of their karmic imprints, all of their suffering and they become completely pervaded by love. That is what happens on the outer level: you visualize how these light rays of love go out there and this love – your Bodhicitta – has the power to destroy all the self-grasping in the minds of sentient beings. And the blessings of Vajrakilaya really arise only when you pervade all sentient beings – all the three realms of samsara – and everything becomes purified and brought under control, and all beings become free of self-grasping, their minds become infused with Bodhichitta and then finally they realize the ultimate truth which is emptiness that there is no self; they mature into that state gradually. In order to mature into this state we have to eliminate self-grasping like melting and ice block. If you pervade beings with love then it will naturally melt so therefore it's very important to give rise to this actual feeling of love when you're sending out the light rays. And so that's the feeling, and the visualization is that you think the light rays pervade all beings and purifies their observations – but then you shouldn't just think, “so now I'm sending out the light rays and now everything is purified,” so that's just kind of an imagination but you actually should have a feeling of all of that. Really bring to mind all of the suffering in the world like it is now, for example, so really feel that suffering that they have and that feeling of suffering and then pervade that with love and think it is all cleared away by bodhichitta which is like the sun shining clearing away all of their self grasping. So this is how we purify the obscurations of the lower fields which are the sentient beings and it's really a self-grasping that's cleared away and it's cleared away by the altruistic mind of bodhichitta so altruism really is that -- it is bodhichitta, it is immeasurable love
Sorry for the stream-of-consciousness feel. It is my own transcript of Ina's interpretation.
Générosité de l’invisible.
Notre gratitude est infinie.
Le critère est l’hospitalité.

Edmond Jabès
Natan
Posts: 3685
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 5:48 pm

Re: Furthering confidence in mantras

Post by Natan »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 3:44 pm Personally, I don’t understand by what principle mantras, and for that matter, dharanis, can have any effect beyond that on the mind of the person reciting them.
Mantra, as I understand it, is the audible manifestation of the yidam or deity. So, I get that, for example, within the sadhana practice of Chenrezig a point arises when the six-syllable mantra is recited as part of a visualization. But the idea that mantras and dharanis can be used essentially as magical invocations, I don’t get what logical basis there is for that.
It's the same for any effect based on yogacara. Habit. Think that our habits and abilities evolved over countless eons and it makes sense mantra is a method to develop new abilities through extensível repetitions.
User avatar
PadmaVonSamba
Posts: 9439
Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am

Re: Furthering confidence in mantras

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Crazywisdom wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 12:51 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 3:44 pm Personally, I don’t understand by what principle mantras, and for that matter, dharanis, can have any effect beyond that on the mind of the person reciting them.
Mantra, as I understand it, is the audible manifestation of the yidam or deity. So, I get that, for example, within the sadhana practice of Chenrezig a point arises when the six-syllable mantra is recited as part of a visualization. But the idea that mantras and dharanis can be used essentially as magical invocations, I don’t get what logical basis there is for that.
It's the same for any effect based on yogacara. Habit. Think that our habits and abilities evolved over countless eons and it makes sense mantra is a method to develop new abilities through extensível repetitions.
Yes, it’s about the mind.
Actually, the words mantra and mind share the same etymology. Mantra literally means to focus the mind, or that which focuses the mind.
My question was about how reciting mantras or dharanis would have any efficacy on external influences. For example, protection from illness or enemies.
But as you point out, in the yogacara view, there are no external influences. It’s all in the mind.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
Natan
Posts: 3685
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 5:48 pm

Re: Furthering confidence in mantras

Post by Natan »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:37 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 12:51 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 3:44 pm Personally, I don’t understand by what principle mantras, and for that matter, dharanis, can have any effect beyond that on the mind of the person reciting them.
Mantra, as I understand it, is the audible manifestation of the yidam or deity. So, I get that, for example, within the sadhana practice of Chenrezig a point arises when the six-syllable mantra is recited as part of a visualization. But the idea that mantras and dharanis can be used essentially as magical invocations, I don’t get what logical basis there is for that.
It's the same for any effect based on yogacara. Habit. Think that our habits and abilities evolved over countless eons and it makes sense mantra is a method to develop new abilities through extensível repetitions.
Yes, it’s about the mind.
Actually, the words mantra and mind share the same etymology. Mantra literally means to focus the mind, or that which focuses the mind.
My question was about how reciting mantras or dharanis would have any efficacy on external influences. For example, protection from illness or enemies.
But as you point out, in the yogacara view, there are no external influences. It’s all in the mind.
Exactly. Externalities are not real.
Terma
Posts: 556
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2011 11:07 am

Re: Furthering confidence in mantras

Post by Terma »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:37 pm Yes, it’s about the mind.
Actually, the words mantra and mind share the same etymology. Mantra literally means to focus the mind, or that which focuses the mind.
I have been taught that 'mantra' is translated more as "that which protects the mind". In fact, in the context of Vajrayana, mantras help to protect the mind from ordinary perceptions.
MiphamFan
Posts: 1096
Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2015 5:46 am

Re: Furthering confidence in mantras

Post by MiphamFan »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 3:44 pm Personally, I don’t understand by what principle mantras, and for that matter, dharanis, can have any effect beyond that on the mind of the person reciting them.
Mantra, as I understand it, is the audible manifestation of the yidam or deity. So, I get that, for example, within the sadhana practice of Chenrezig a point arises when the six-syllable mantra is recited as part of a visualization. But the idea that mantras and dharanis can be used essentially as magical invocations, I don’t get what logical basis there is for that.
You can read this on how mantras work through interdependent arising:

https://perfumedskull.com/2016/06/19/t ... e-results/
User avatar
PadmaVonSamba
Posts: 9439
Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am

Re: Furthering confidence in mantras

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Terma wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 3:14 am
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:37 pm Yes, it’s about the mind.
Actually, the words mantra and mind share the same etymology. Mantra literally means to focus the mind, or that which focuses the mind.
I have been taught that 'mantra' is translated more as "that which protects the mind". In fact, in the context of Vajrayana, mantras help to protect the mind from ordinary perceptions.
Perhaps I confused protects with directs . In any case, to direct the mind is probably the first step in protecting the mind, because what does the mind really need to be protected from that isn’t a distraction?
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
Terma
Posts: 556
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2011 11:07 am

Re: Furthering confidence in mantras

Post by Terma »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 4:02 am
Terma wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 3:14 am
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:37 pm Yes, it’s about the mind.
Actually, the words mantra and mind share the same etymology. Mantra literally means to focus the mind, or that which focuses the mind.
I have been taught that 'mantra' is translated more as "that which protects the mind". In fact, in the context of Vajrayana, mantras help to protect the mind from ordinary perceptions.
Perhaps I confused protects with directs . In any case, to direct the mind is probably the first step in protecting the mind, because what does the mind really need to be protected from that isn’t a distraction?
But in the context of the Vajrayana, it is not really the function of mantra. Otherwise we could just repeat something like "peanut-butter and jelly" again and again. Sure, this will help to anchor the mind and free it from distraction. In Vajrayana mantras work in conjunction with the other aspects of tantric yoga to train our mind in pure perception as being the mandala of whichever deity we are practicing.

:anjali:
Natan
Posts: 3685
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 5:48 pm

Re: Furthering confidence in mantras

Post by Natan »

MiphamFan wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 3:56 am
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 3:44 pm Personally, I don’t understand by what principle mantras, and for that matter, dharanis, can have any effect beyond that on the mind of the person reciting them.
Mantra, as I understand it, is the audible manifestation of the yidam or deity. So, I get that, for example, within the sadhana practice of Chenrezig a point arises when the six-syllable mantra is recited as part of a visualization. But the idea that mantras and dharanis can be used essentially as magical invocations, I don’t get what logical basis there is for that.
You can read this on how mantras work through interdependent arising:

https://perfumedskull.com/2016/06/19/t ... e-results/
Excellent
Post Reply

Return to “Tibetan Buddhism”