Just how many Indian Sadhanas have you actually consulted? I've looked at very many (in Tibetan translation).nightbloom wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 8:21 pmCan you explain why you think Indian sadhakas recited their sadhanas word for word? Given the way some of these are written, ("Do this, visualize that, if you do not have X and you can substitute Y,") without any metrical structure or anything, this seems doubtful to me. Tibetan sadhanas seem a little different.
When did "recitation" of Sadhanas become the norm?
Re: When did "recitation" of Sadhanas become the norm?
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Re: When did "recitation" of Sadhanas become the norm?
Enough to generalize. I'm thinking of visualizations described at some length in the Vairocana Tantra, and a few of the less cryptic Yoginitantras and others from equivalent classes. It's also been a while, but I think many of the visualizations described in the Sadhanamala lack meter. But even in the sadhanas where meter is present, the form, e.g, "A mantrin should sit in the X posture, at a location with X, Y and Z qualities, while wearing a garment of such and such color," simply reads like instructions.Malcolm wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 8:40 pmJust how many Indian Sadhanas have you actually consulted?nightbloom wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 8:21 pmCan you explain why you think Indian sadhakas recited their sadhanas word for word? Given the way some of these are written, ("Do this, visualize that, if you do not have X and you can substitute Y,") without any metrical structure or anything, this seems doubtful to me. Tibetan sadhanas seem a little different.
I can imagine that Indian practitioners memorized some of these texts, and meter obviously helps with that, but I always assumed the formalize treatment of sadhana as a form of *chant* was a Tibetan development.
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Re: When did "recitation" of Sadhanas become the norm?
Ha. I started doing it on my own, kinda spontaneously (and only with the practices I know half by heart). Loppon-la, how popular is such a view among Tibetans?
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Re: When did "recitation" of Sadhanas become the norm?
Why do you think meter is imporatant in a sadhana? Many are just in prose.nightbloom wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 8:57 pmEnough to generalize. I'm thinking of visualizations described at some length in the Vairocana Tantra, and a few of the less cryptic Yoginitantras and others from equivalent classes. It's also been a while, but I think many of the visualizations described in the Sadhanamala lack meter.Malcolm wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 8:40 pmJust how many Indian Sadhanas have you actually consulted?nightbloom wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 8:21 pm
Can you explain why you think Indian sadhakas recited their sadhanas word for word? Given the way some of these are written, ("Do this, visualize that, if you do not have X and you can substitute Y,") without any metrical structure or anything, this seems doubtful to me. Tibetan sadhanas seem a little different.
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Re: When did "recitation" of Sadhanas become the norm?
I realize that. My point is that though the presence of meter in any sort of sanskrit composition tends to suggest recitation (or at least memorization), I still don't think these practices were written with their ritualized chant intended as a primary component of practice, because it seems silly to chant: "Now find a tree to sit under - a such-and-such tree is preferable, but if one cannot find that, an X or a Y tree, or any sort of tree at all, will do." Does this make sense?Malcolm wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 9:53 pmWhy do you think meter is imporatant in a sadhana? Many are just in prose.nightbloom wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 8:57 pmEnough to generalize. I'm thinking of visualizations described at some length in the Vairocana Tantra, and a few of the less cryptic Yoginitantras and others from equivalent classes. It's also been a while, but I think many of the visualizations described in the Sadhanamala lack meter.
To cut to the chase, is there something specific that makes you think sanskrit sadhanas were meant to be recited, rather than simply taken as instructions for visualization or exterior ritual?
Re: When did "recitation" of Sadhanas become the norm?
Yes, reading them in the bstan 'gyur as well as commentaries on them, and the way these translations were practiced as such by early lotsawas in Tibet, for example Rinchen Zangpo and Drokmi, before Tibetans started writing their own sadhanas based in Indian material.nightbloom wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 10:05 pm
To cut to the chase, is there something specific that makes you think sanskrit sadhanas were meant to be recited...
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Re: When did "recitation" of Sadhanas become the norm?
The previous Kalu Rinpoche favored students everywhere reciting Tibetan language sadhanas in Tibetan so that when people from different countries were together, such as at a Monlam, everyone would be reciting together.
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Re: When did "recitation" of Sadhanas become the norm?
I wonder if the practice of reciting is derived from the time before the teachings were written down at all.
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Re: When did "recitation" of Sadhanas become the norm?
Sure he did. He was educated.
Mere details. The point is that they were uttered by the Buddha or blessed by the Buddha to do so. Time doesn’t matter much here.These are utterances by awesome yogis a thousand years later. We talked about this. You affirmed.they are not imposters if the information is Buddhisty.
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Re: When did "recitation" of Sadhanas become the norm?
That’s possible. I still suspect that between years 500-1200, practice was meant to be mostly silent except for mantras, but it’s also totally possible that people were memorizing important texts and practices word for word.PadmaVonSamba wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 11:36 pm I wonder if the practice of reciting is derived from the time before the teachings were written down at all.
Re: When did "recitation" of Sadhanas become the norm?
I like this approach too. There are lineages of specific chant tunes with varying speeds to choose from within certain practices, but I doubt that they are very old in comparison to the idea of chanting Indian sadhanas. While Tibetan seems fairly compact when compared to English, when the tunes are at a slower pace or more melismatic, it gives an opportunity to reflect on the meaning. I do think it is important to have the meaning in your primary language under your belt first before making this your means of recitation.PadmaVonSamba wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 11:33 pmThe previous Kalu Rinpoche favored students everywhere reciting Tibetan language sadhanas in Tibetan so that when people from different countries were together, such as at a Monlam, everyone would be reciting together.
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Re: When did "recitation" of Sadhanas become the norm?
You could be right, but this puts us in the position of believing that Indian yogins were saying things like “On a full moon, in a lonely place, construct the mandala out of such-and-such, and say this mantra 100x while gazing at the sky” while they are actually doing these things. I know that most Tibetan sadhanas also contain a few such instructions and that these parts get read aloud, obviously, but it’s also clear that many parts are meant to be recited. In contrast a lot of Indian ritual is so much like a cook book or any other set of instructions, and so unlike “liturgy,” that it seems counterintuitive.Malcolm wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 10:46 pmYes, reading them in the bstan 'gyur as well as commentaries on them, and the way these translations were practiced as such by early lotsawas in Tibet, for example Rinchen Zangpo and Drokmi, before Tibetans started writing their own sadhanas based in Indian material.nightbloom wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 10:05 pm
To cut to the chase, is there something specific that makes you think sanskrit sadhanas were meant to be recited...
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Re: When did "recitation" of Sadhanas become the norm?
I tend to agree. If one is going to visualize while reciting, it makes sense to work in a slow, rhythmic way, and just reading the English translations aloud doesn’t quite cut it. I’d rather dispense with the words entirely in favor of silent visualization than chant in English.zerwe wrote: ↑Wed Sep 29, 2021 12:36 amI like this approach too. There are lineages of specific chant tunes with varying speeds to choose from within certain practices, but I doubt that they are very old in comparison to the idea of chanting Indian sadhanas. While Tibetan seems fairly compact when compared to English, when the tunes are at a slower pace or more melismatic, it gives an opportunity to reflect on the meaning. I do think it is important to have the meaning in your primary language under your belt first before making this your means of recitation.PadmaVonSamba wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 11:33 pmThe previous Kalu Rinpoche favored students everywhere reciting Tibetan language sadhanas in Tibetan so that when people from different countries were together, such as at a Monlam, everyone would be reciting together.
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Re: When did "recitation" of Sadhanas become the norm?
I would like clarification on this as well, because I very much prefer to do it this way.treehuggingoctopus wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 9:49 pmHa. I started doing it on my own, kinda spontaneously (and only with the practices I know half by heart). Loppon-la, how popular is such a view among Tibetans?
Re: When did "recitation" of Sadhanas become the norm?
No one recites such instructions in Tibetan sadhanas.nightbloom wrote: ↑Wed Sep 29, 2021 12:44 amYou could be right, but this puts us in the position of believing that Indian yogins were saying things like “On a full moon, in a lonely place, construct the mandala out of such-and-such, and say this mantra 100x while gazing at the sky” while they are actually doing these things.Malcolm wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 10:46 pmYes, reading them in the bstan 'gyur as well as commentaries on them, and the way these translations were practiced as such by early lotsawas in Tibet, for example Rinchen Zangpo and Drokmi, before Tibetans started writing their own sadhanas based in Indian material.nightbloom wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 10:05 pm
To cut to the chase, is there something specific that makes you think sanskrit sadhanas were meant to be recited...
No, they don’t.I know that most Tibetan sadhanas also contain a few such instructions and that these parts get read aloud, obviously, but it’s also clear that many parts are meant to be recited.
Re: When did "recitation" of Sadhanas become the norm?
You need to follow the instructions of your guru. In general, much more emphasis is placed on reciting every word (which are meant to recited) in Nyingma sadhanas, which is why they are universally in verse, from beginning to end, (including the parts not meant for recitation).nightbloom wrote: ↑Wed Sep 29, 2021 12:52 amI would like clarification on this as well, because I very much prefer to do it this way.treehuggingoctopus wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 9:49 pmHa. I started doing it on my own, kinda spontaneously (and only with the practices I know half by heart). Loppon-la, how popular is such a view among Tibetans?
Re: When did "recitation" of Sadhanas become the norm?
You are the deity. Why not just do it from memory if you like, or simply read it off the text if that is what you like? The main point is to do the practice.nightbloom wrote: ↑Wed Sep 29, 2021 12:52 amI would like clarification on this as well, because I very much prefer to do it this way.treehuggingoctopus wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 9:49 pmHa. I started doing it on my own, kinda spontaneously (and only with the practices I know half by heart). Loppon-la, how popular is such a view among Tibetans?
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Re: When did "recitation" of Sadhanas become the norm?
I'm glad you clarified this embarrassing error in my part. I can't understand Tibetan, so I assumed that they were also reading the little snippets that say things like, "Now say the such and such mantra," or "Place the torma outside."Malcolm wrote: ↑Wed Sep 29, 2021 12:55 amNo one recites such instructions in Tibetan sadhanas.nightbloom wrote: ↑Wed Sep 29, 2021 12:44 amYou could be right, but this puts us in the position of believing that Indian yogins were saying things like “On a full moon, in a lonely place, construct the mandala out of such-and-such, and say this mantra 100x while gazing at the sky” while they are actually doing these things.Malcolm wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 10:46 pm
Yes, reading them in the bstan 'gyur as well as commentaries on them, and the way these translations were practiced as such by early lotsawas in Tibet, for example Rinchen Zangpo and Drokmi, before Tibetans started writing their own sadhanas based in Indian material.
No, they don’t.I know that most Tibetan sadhanas also contain a few such instructions and that these parts get read aloud, obviously, but it’s also clear that many parts are meant to be recited.
But you must have seen some of these Indian practices that consist almost solely of such instructions in conjunction with mantras, right? Some of them are in the scriptures themselves, and some are sadhanas generated on the basis of the scriptures (e.g, Sadhanamala).
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Re: When did "recitation" of Sadhanas become the norm?
I do not believe that knowing oneself to be the deity means that one defers to the preferences of one's ordinary self. Perhaps that day I prefer to sleep in and not practice at all - knowing myself to be the deity, my desire becomes instead to practice in the most potent, correct manner possible. Malcolm is right - I should reach out to my teachers for clarification.Virgo wrote: ↑Wed Sep 29, 2021 1:20 amYou are the deity. Why not just do it from memory if you like, or simply read it off the text if that is what you like? The main point is to do the practice.nightbloom wrote: ↑Wed Sep 29, 2021 12:52 amI would like clarification on this as well, because I very much prefer to do it this way.treehuggingoctopus wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 9:49 pm
Ha. I started doing it on my own, kinda spontaneously (and only with the practices I know half by heart). Loppon-la, how popular is such a view among Tibetans?
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Re: When did "recitation" of Sadhanas become the norm?
nightbloom wrote: ↑Wed Sep 29, 2021 1:26 am
But you must have seen some of these Indian practices that consist almost solely of such instructions in conjunction with mantras, right? Some of them are in the scriptures themselves, and some are sadhanas generated on the basis of the scriptures (e.g, Sadhanamala).
I have to ask, do you have the empowerment for any sadhana? The Sadhanamala is not commonly given and actually requires training to understand how it is practiced, since it is series of sadhanas that follow a standard template