When did "recitation" of Sadhanas become the norm?

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Malcolm
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Re: When did "recitation" of Sadhanas become the norm?

Post by Malcolm »

nightbloom wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 8:21 pm
Malcolm wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 12:14 pm That’s a false impression.
Can you explain why you think Indian sadhakas recited their sadhanas word for word? Given the way some of these are written, ("Do this, visualize that, if you do not have X and you can substitute Y,") without any metrical structure or anything, this seems doubtful to me. Tibetan sadhanas seem a little different.
Just how many Indian Sadhanas have you actually consulted? I've looked at very many (in Tibetan translation).
nightbloom
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Re: When did "recitation" of Sadhanas become the norm?

Post by nightbloom »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 8:40 pm
nightbloom wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 8:21 pm
Malcolm wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 12:14 pm That’s a false impression.
Can you explain why you think Indian sadhakas recited their sadhanas word for word? Given the way some of these are written, ("Do this, visualize that, if you do not have X and you can substitute Y,") without any metrical structure or anything, this seems doubtful to me. Tibetan sadhanas seem a little different.
Just how many Indian Sadhanas have you actually consulted?
Enough to generalize. I'm thinking of visualizations described at some length in the Vairocana Tantra, and a few of the less cryptic Yoginitantras and others from equivalent classes. It's also been a while, but I think many of the visualizations described in the Sadhanamala lack meter. But even in the sadhanas where meter is present, the form, e.g, "A mantrin should sit in the X posture, at a location with X, Y and Z qualities, while wearing a garment of such and such color," simply reads like instructions.

I can imagine that Indian practitioners memorized some of these texts, and meter obviously helps with that, but I always assumed the formalize treatment of sadhana as a form of *chant* was a Tibetan development.
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Re: When did "recitation" of Sadhanas become the norm?

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 7:52 pmAt some point, As Zong RInpoche pointed out, one can discard text and just do the visualizations, and if you can remember then, the offerings, praises and so on from memory.
Ha. I started doing it on my own, kinda spontaneously (and only with the practices I know half by heart). Loppon-la, how popular is such a view among Tibetans?
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Malcolm
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Re: When did "recitation" of Sadhanas become the norm?

Post by Malcolm »

nightbloom wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 8:57 pm
Malcolm wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 8:40 pm
nightbloom wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 8:21 pm

Can you explain why you think Indian sadhakas recited their sadhanas word for word? Given the way some of these are written, ("Do this, visualize that, if you do not have X and you can substitute Y,") without any metrical structure or anything, this seems doubtful to me. Tibetan sadhanas seem a little different.
Just how many Indian Sadhanas have you actually consulted?
Enough to generalize. I'm thinking of visualizations described at some length in the Vairocana Tantra, and a few of the less cryptic Yoginitantras and others from equivalent classes. It's also been a while, but I think many of the visualizations described in the Sadhanamala lack meter.
Why do you think meter is imporatant in a sadhana? Many are just in prose.
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Re: When did "recitation" of Sadhanas become the norm?

Post by nightbloom »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 9:53 pm
nightbloom wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 8:57 pm
Malcolm wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 8:40 pm

Just how many Indian Sadhanas have you actually consulted?
Enough to generalize. I'm thinking of visualizations described at some length in the Vairocana Tantra, and a few of the less cryptic Yoginitantras and others from equivalent classes. It's also been a while, but I think many of the visualizations described in the Sadhanamala lack meter.
Why do you think meter is imporatant in a sadhana? Many are just in prose.
I realize that. My point is that though the presence of meter in any sort of sanskrit composition tends to suggest recitation (or at least memorization), I still don't think these practices were written with their ritualized chant intended as a primary component of practice, because it seems silly to chant: "Now find a tree to sit under - a such-and-such tree is preferable, but if one cannot find that, an X or a Y tree, or any sort of tree at all, will do." Does this make sense?

To cut to the chase, is there something specific that makes you think sanskrit sadhanas were meant to be recited, rather than simply taken as instructions for visualization or exterior ritual?
Malcolm
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Re: When did "recitation" of Sadhanas become the norm?

Post by Malcolm »

nightbloom wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 10:05 pm
To cut to the chase, is there something specific that makes you think sanskrit sadhanas were meant to be recited...
Yes, reading them in the bstan 'gyur as well as commentaries on them, and the way these translations were practiced as such by early lotsawas in Tibet, for example Rinchen Zangpo and Drokmi, before Tibetans started writing their own sadhanas based in Indian material.
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Re: When did "recitation" of Sadhanas become the norm?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 5:54 pm
Sādhaka wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 4:55 pm Therefore study the English subtitles of the text to get to understand the meaning, and also learn how to pronounce the Tibetan or Sanskrit.

Would be better than reciting it in English, IMO.
No, not for most people and certainly not a sadhana of any significant length.

After all, Tibetans NEVER recited transliterated Sanskrit sadhanas. Why should we be expected to do so. It’s bullshit. Just lazy.
The previous Kalu Rinpoche favored students everywhere reciting Tibetan language sadhanas in Tibetan so that when people from different countries were together, such as at a Monlam, everyone would be reciting together.
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Re: When did "recitation" of Sadhanas become the norm?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

I wonder if the practice of reciting is derived from the time before the teachings were written down at all.
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Re: When did "recitation" of Sadhanas become the norm?

Post by Malcolm »

Crazywisdom wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 7:50 pm
Buddha did not speak Sanskrit.
Sure he did. He was educated.

These are utterances by awesome yogis a thousand years later. We talked about this. You affirmed.they are not imposters if the information is Buddhisty.
Mere details. The point is that they were uttered by the Buddha or blessed by the Buddha to do so. Time doesn’t matter much here.
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Re: When did "recitation" of Sadhanas become the norm?

Post by nightbloom »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 11:36 pm I wonder if the practice of reciting is derived from the time before the teachings were written down at all.
That’s possible. I still suspect that between years 500-1200, practice was meant to be mostly silent except for mantras, but it’s also totally possible that people were memorizing important texts and practices word for word.
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Re: When did "recitation" of Sadhanas become the norm?

Post by zerwe »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 11:33 pm
Malcolm wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 5:54 pm
Sādhaka wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 4:55 pm Therefore study the English subtitles of the text to get to understand the meaning, and also learn how to pronounce the Tibetan or Sanskrit.

Would be better than reciting it in English, IMO.
No, not for most people and certainly not a sadhana of any significant length.

After all, Tibetans NEVER recited transliterated Sanskrit sadhanas. Why should we be expected to do so. It’s bullshit. Just lazy.
The previous Kalu Rinpoche favored students everywhere reciting Tibetan language sadhanas in Tibetan so that when people from different countries were together, such as at a Monlam, everyone would be reciting together.
I like this approach too. There are lineages of specific chant tunes with varying speeds to choose from within certain practices, but I doubt that they are very old in comparison to the idea of chanting Indian sadhanas. While Tibetan seems fairly compact when compared to English, when the tunes are at a slower pace or more melismatic, it gives an opportunity to reflect on the meaning. I do think it is important to have the meaning in your primary language under your belt first before making this your means of recitation.

Shaun :namaste:
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Re: When did "recitation" of Sadhanas become the norm?

Post by nightbloom »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 10:46 pm
nightbloom wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 10:05 pm
To cut to the chase, is there something specific that makes you think sanskrit sadhanas were meant to be recited...
Yes, reading them in the bstan 'gyur as well as commentaries on them, and the way these translations were practiced as such by early lotsawas in Tibet, for example Rinchen Zangpo and Drokmi, before Tibetans started writing their own sadhanas based in Indian material.
You could be right, but this puts us in the position of believing that Indian yogins were saying things like “On a full moon, in a lonely place, construct the mandala out of such-and-such, and say this mantra 100x while gazing at the sky” while they are actually doing these things. I know that most Tibetan sadhanas also contain a few such instructions and that these parts get read aloud, obviously, but it’s also clear that many parts are meant to be recited. In contrast a lot of Indian ritual is so much like a cook book or any other set of instructions, and so unlike “liturgy,” that it seems counterintuitive.
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Re: When did "recitation" of Sadhanas become the norm?

Post by nightbloom »

zerwe wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 12:36 am
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 11:33 pm
Malcolm wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 5:54 pm

No, not for most people and certainly not a sadhana of any significant length.

After all, Tibetans NEVER recited transliterated Sanskrit sadhanas. Why should we be expected to do so. It’s bullshit. Just lazy.
The previous Kalu Rinpoche favored students everywhere reciting Tibetan language sadhanas in Tibetan so that when people from different countries were together, such as at a Monlam, everyone would be reciting together.
I like this approach too. There are lineages of specific chant tunes with varying speeds to choose from within certain practices, but I doubt that they are very old in comparison to the idea of chanting Indian sadhanas. While Tibetan seems fairly compact when compared to English, when the tunes are at a slower pace or more melismatic, it gives an opportunity to reflect on the meaning. I do think it is important to have the meaning in your primary language under your belt first before making this your means of recitation.

Shaun :namaste:
I tend to agree. If one is going to visualize while reciting, it makes sense to work in a slow, rhythmic way, and just reading the English translations aloud doesn’t quite cut it. I’d rather dispense with the words entirely in favor of silent visualization than chant in English.
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Re: When did "recitation" of Sadhanas become the norm?

Post by nightbloom »

treehuggingoctopus wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 9:49 pm
Malcolm wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 7:52 pmAt some point, As Zong RInpoche pointed out, one can discard text and just do the visualizations, and if you can remember then, the offerings, praises and so on from memory.
Ha. I started doing it on my own, kinda spontaneously (and only with the practices I know half by heart). Loppon-la, how popular is such a view among Tibetans?
I would like clarification on this as well, because I very much prefer to do it this way.
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Re: When did "recitation" of Sadhanas become the norm?

Post by Malcolm »

nightbloom wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 12:44 am
Malcolm wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 10:46 pm
nightbloom wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 10:05 pm
To cut to the chase, is there something specific that makes you think sanskrit sadhanas were meant to be recited...
Yes, reading them in the bstan 'gyur as well as commentaries on them, and the way these translations were practiced as such by early lotsawas in Tibet, for example Rinchen Zangpo and Drokmi, before Tibetans started writing their own sadhanas based in Indian material.
You could be right, but this puts us in the position of believing that Indian yogins were saying things like “On a full moon, in a lonely place, construct the mandala out of such-and-such, and say this mantra 100x while gazing at the sky” while they are actually doing these things.
No one recites such instructions in Tibetan sadhanas.
I know that most Tibetan sadhanas also contain a few such instructions and that these parts get read aloud, obviously, but it’s also clear that many parts are meant to be recited.
No, they don’t.
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Re: When did "recitation" of Sadhanas become the norm?

Post by Malcolm »

nightbloom wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 12:52 am
treehuggingoctopus wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 9:49 pm
Malcolm wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 7:52 pmAt some point, As Zong RInpoche pointed out, one can discard text and just do the visualizations, and if you can remember then, the offerings, praises and so on from memory.
Ha. I started doing it on my own, kinda spontaneously (and only with the practices I know half by heart). Loppon-la, how popular is such a view among Tibetans?
I would like clarification on this as well, because I very much prefer to do it this way.
You need to follow the instructions of your guru. In general, much more emphasis is placed on reciting every word (which are meant to recited) in Nyingma sadhanas, which is why they are universally in verse, from beginning to end, (including the parts not meant for recitation).
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Re: When did "recitation" of Sadhanas become the norm?

Post by Virgo »

nightbloom wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 12:52 am
treehuggingoctopus wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 9:49 pm
Malcolm wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 7:52 pmAt some point, As Zong RInpoche pointed out, one can discard text and just do the visualizations, and if you can remember then, the offerings, praises and so on from memory.
Ha. I started doing it on my own, kinda spontaneously (and only with the practices I know half by heart). Loppon-la, how popular is such a view among Tibetans?
I would like clarification on this as well, because I very much prefer to do it this way.
You are the deity. Why not just do it from memory if you like, or simply read it off the text if that is what you like? The main point is to do the practice.

Virgo
nightbloom
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Re: When did "recitation" of Sadhanas become the norm?

Post by nightbloom »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 12:55 am
nightbloom wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 12:44 am
Malcolm wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 10:46 pm

Yes, reading them in the bstan 'gyur as well as commentaries on them, and the way these translations were practiced as such by early lotsawas in Tibet, for example Rinchen Zangpo and Drokmi, before Tibetans started writing their own sadhanas based in Indian material.
You could be right, but this puts us in the position of believing that Indian yogins were saying things like “On a full moon, in a lonely place, construct the mandala out of such-and-such, and say this mantra 100x while gazing at the sky” while they are actually doing these things.
No one recites such instructions in Tibetan sadhanas.
I know that most Tibetan sadhanas also contain a few such instructions and that these parts get read aloud, obviously, but it’s also clear that many parts are meant to be recited.
No, they don’t.
I'm glad you clarified this embarrassing error in my part. I can't understand Tibetan, so I assumed that they were also reading the little snippets that say things like, "Now say the such and such mantra," or "Place the torma outside."

But you must have seen some of these Indian practices that consist almost solely of such instructions in conjunction with mantras, right? Some of them are in the scriptures themselves, and some are sadhanas generated on the basis of the scriptures (e.g, Sadhanamala).
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Re: When did "recitation" of Sadhanas become the norm?

Post by nightbloom »

Virgo wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 1:20 am
nightbloom wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 12:52 am
treehuggingoctopus wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 9:49 pm

Ha. I started doing it on my own, kinda spontaneously (and only with the practices I know half by heart). Loppon-la, how popular is such a view among Tibetans?
I would like clarification on this as well, because I very much prefer to do it this way.
You are the deity. Why not just do it from memory if you like, or simply read it off the text if that is what you like? The main point is to do the practice.

Virgo
I do not believe that knowing oneself to be the deity means that one defers to the preferences of one's ordinary self. Perhaps that day I prefer to sleep in and not practice at all - knowing myself to be the deity, my desire becomes instead to practice in the most potent, correct manner possible. Malcolm is right - I should reach out to my teachers for clarification.
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Re: When did "recitation" of Sadhanas become the norm?

Post by Malcolm »

nightbloom wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 1:26 am
But you must have seen some of these Indian practices that consist almost solely of such instructions in conjunction with mantras, right? Some of them are in the scriptures themselves, and some are sadhanas generated on the basis of the scriptures (e.g, Sadhanamala).

I have to ask, do you have the empowerment for any sadhana? The Sadhanamala is not commonly given and actually requires training to understand how it is practiced, since it is series of sadhanas that follow a standard template
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