On Rebirth - Is it the same guy?

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Malcolm
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Re: On Rebirth - Is it the same guy?

Post by Malcolm »

Supramundane wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 2:50 pm
I stand by my claim that the Buddha never declared that there is no self;
You would be tragically wrong, in that case.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: On Rebirth - Is it the same guy?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Supramundane wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 2:50 pm I stand by my claim that the Buddha never declared that there is no self;
So then, what exactly is this “true self” of which you speak?
EMPTIFUL.
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Supramundane
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Re: On Rebirth - Is it the same guy?

Post by Supramundane »

I wouldn't want that!

If you say there is absolutely no self, is this not tantamount to nihilism?

Anatta does not mean 'not having a self' but anatta means 'is not atman'. You are correct though that a strict reading of Nagarjuna shifts 'not-self' to 'no self'.

To go out on a limb, one way of defining Tahtagatagarbha is "the non-self"....
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Supramundane
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Re: On Rebirth - Is it the same guy?

Post by Supramundane »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 3:18 pm
Supramundane wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 2:50 pm I stand by my claim that the Buddha never declared that there is no self;
So then, what exactly is this “true self” of which you speak?
I never meant that... I misquoted a Sutra LOL

Please see my discussion with Malcolm above.

How about this, the Tatagatagharba is the true non-self :)
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Supramundane
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Re: On Rebirth - Is it the same guy?

Post by Supramundane »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 3:14 pm
Supramundane wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 2:51 pm Also, the platform Sutra is not a Sutra, why not?

Sort of like the way Pluto is not a planet? LOL
No, it’s a biography of Huineng. It and other Chinese texts spurious and otherwise are irrelevant in this forum.
I wasn't being facetious by the way. The people who declared that Pluto is not a planet did so for good reasons. They had an intellectual basis for defining what constitutes a planet, and when Pluto did not fall into those parameters, they thus changed this classification. I'm not saying it was not a valid choice.

You may be acting upon a similar methodology.
Malcolm
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Re: On Rebirth - Is it the same guy?

Post by Malcolm »

Supramundane wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 3:33 pm I wouldn't want that!

If you say there is absolutely no self, is this not tantamount to nihilism?
Of course not. There is a “self” which serves as a nominal designation for aggregates, but there is no actual self that is one, all, or separate from the aggregates.
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Supramundane
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Re: On Rebirth - Is it the same guy?

Post by Supramundane »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 4:13 pm
Supramundane wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 3:33 pm I wouldn't want that!

If you say there is absolutely no self, is this not tantamount to nihilism?
Of course not. There is a “self” which serves as a nominal designation for aggregates, but there is no actual self that is one, all, or separate from the aggregates.
But "the nominal designation" you refer to is false, i.e. an illusion.

You seem to be opting for a no self. Isn't there room for a non-self?

What about our Buddhanature....
Malcolm
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Re: On Rebirth - Is it the same guy?

Post by Malcolm »

Supramundane wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 4:18 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 4:13 pm
Supramundane wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 3:33 pm I wouldn't want that!

If you say there is absolutely no self, is this not tantamount to nihilism?
Of course not. There is a “self” which serves as a nominal designation for aggregates, but there is no actual self that is one, all, or separate from the aggregates.
But "the nominal designation" you refer to is false, i.e. an illusion.
Correct, but the Buddha allowed it for the purpose of discourse.
You seem to be opting for a no self. Isn't there room for a non-self?

What about our Buddhanature....

“No self” is non-affirming negation. It does not fall into any extreme, since an existent self is not being negated.

“Non-self” is an affirming negation since it affirms there is a self that remains to proven, hence it falls into both extremes at once.

Buddhanature is a provisional teaching for those who can’t fully accept emptiness.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: On Rebirth - Is it the same guy?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Supramundane wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 4:18 pm What about our Buddhanature....
Buddha nature is more like capacity or inherent potential, like that of a caterpillar to become a butterfly.
But if you look at the caterpillar or butterfly, trying to find its ‘self’ there is no ‘self’ that can be found, ultimately.

And what ‘ultimately’ means is an intrinsic essence which is not merely the result of aggregates. In other words, some kind of essential caterpillar-ness or butterfly-ness, some “thing” which both exists and has arisen entirely on its own.

There is a sort of poetic idea that within each of us is a Buddha just waiting to hatch out, like a butterfly emerging from a cocoon. It’s a nice metaphor, but it lends itself too easily to the idea that for now, one is a samsara-self, and we want to replace that with a Buddha-self.
However, that’s not really what the Buddha taught.
All notions of ‘self’ including true self, fake self, whatever, are limited.
If anything, Buddha-nature is unlimited, in that it is freedom from all notions of self.
EMPTIFUL.
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Re: On Rebirth - Is it the same guy?

Post by Padmist »

Supramundame, please don't hijack. There is no self.
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Re: On Rebirth - Is it the same guy?

Post by Padmist »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 2:16 am
Padmist wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 12:10 am
Malcolm wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 9:52 pm

No, you cannot say that.

No entity passes from this life to the next, but the aggregates of the life are serially connected to the aggregates of the next, so there is a continuum.
You meant the 2nd part right?

We can't say this -> "that goats karma/characteristics/habits got transferred to the newly born guy (Padmist)"

But can I say this? -> When you die, you just die, it's over. No reincarnation or resurrection or anything. If "you" are reborn, it isn't you at all. It's a totally different new guy.
Both positions are wrong.


Can we say that there is a continuation of consciousness, mind, memory?
Malcolm
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Re: On Rebirth - Is it the same guy?

Post by Malcolm »

Padmist wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 12:36 am
Malcolm wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 2:16 am
Padmist wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 12:10 am

You meant the 2nd part right?

We can't say this -> "that goats karma/characteristics/habits got transferred to the newly born guy (Padmist)"

But can I say this? -> When you die, you just die, it's over. No reincarnation or resurrection or anything. If "you" are reborn, it isn't you at all. It's a totally different new guy.
Both positions are wrong.


Can we say that there is a continuation of consciousness, mind, memory?
The aggregates are serially connected.
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Re: On Rebirth - Is it the same guy?

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

Can we say that there is a continuation of consciousness, mind, memory?
Yes. In Mahayana there’s a storehouse consciousness, the 8th consciousness, that goes from one life to another. Memory, habit, & karma remain associated with it—but not personality. That gets thoroughly shuffled.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Malcolm
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Re: On Rebirth - Is it the same guy?

Post by Malcolm »

Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 1:37 am
Can we say that there is a continuation of consciousness, mind, memory?
Yes. In Mahayana there’s a storehouse consciousness, the 8th consciousness, that goes from one life to another. Memory, habit, & karma remain associated with it—but not personality. That gets thoroughly shuffled.
This is included in the aggregates. Nothing transfers from this life to the next. Not even traces, karma or anything else. But since actions do not inherently exist there is nothing existent to prevent their ripening.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: On Rebirth - Is it the same guy?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 1:37 am
Can we say that there is a continuation of consciousness, mind, memory?
Yes. In Mahayana there’s a storehouse consciousness, the 8th consciousness, that goes from one life to another. Memory, habit, & karma remain.
I’m not so sure about that.
Yes, storehouse consciousness.
Continuous after the body dies?
Then what’s the difference between
Alaya vijnana, and atma?
Malcolm is correct here.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
Malcolm
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Re: On Rebirth - Is it the same guy?

Post by Malcolm »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 2:01 am
Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 1:37 am
Can we say that there is a continuation of consciousness, mind, memory?
Yes. In Mahayana there’s a storehouse consciousness, the 8th consciousness, that goes from one life to another. Memory, habit, & karma remain.
I’m not so sure about that.
Yes, storehouse consciousness.
Continuous after the body dies?
Then what’s the difference between
Alaya vijnana, and atma?
Ones part of the aggregates, the other is not.
undefineable
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Re: On Rebirth - Is it the same guy?

Post by undefineable »

Malcolm wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 2:00 amThis is included in the aggregates. Nothing transfers from this life to the next. Not even traces, karma or anything else.
Awareness?

Even if copied continually from moment to moment? As some element of the aggregates?
Malcolm wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 2:00 amBut since actions do not inherently exist there is nothing existent to prevent their ripening.
Because they're just aspects of parts of a process?
you wore out your welcome with random precision {Pink Floyd}
Malcolm
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Re: On Rebirth - Is it the same guy?

Post by Malcolm »

undefineable wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 2:15 am
Malcolm wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 2:00 amThis is included in the aggregates. Nothing transfers from this life to the next. Not even traces, karma or anything else.
Awareness?

Even if copied continually from moment to moment? As some element of the aggregates?
awareness is a mental factor, so part of the formations aggregate, and yes momentary.

Because they're just aspects of parts of a process?
Because of dependent origination.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: On Rebirth - Is it the same guy?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Malcolm wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 2:05 am
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 2:01 am Then what’s the difference between
Alaya vijnana, and atma?
Ones part of the aggregates, the other is not.
(Sorry… that was a rhetorical question.
I should have simply said, “otherwise there would be no difference between alaya vijnana and atma”)
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
Malcolm
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Re: On Rebirth - Is it the same guy?

Post by Malcolm »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 2:23 am
Malcolm wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 2:05 am
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 2:01 am Then what’s the difference between
Alaya vijnana, and atma?
Ones part of the aggregates, the other is not.
(Sorry… that was a rhetorical question.
I should have simply said, “otherwise there would be no difference between alaya vijnana and atma”)
Yes, mistaking alaya as a self is an error.
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