On Rebirth - Is it the same guy?

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Padmist
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On Rebirth - Is it the same guy?

Post by Padmist »

Would it be right or wrong to say:

1. The person who died is dead, gone, no more, not going to return or reincarnate.

2. The person who reincarnated is a NEW person, a different person, not the same guy who died.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: On Rebirth - Is it the same guy?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Padmist wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 6:19 pm Would it be right or wrong to say:

1. The person who died is dead, gone, no more, not going to return or reincarnate.

2. The person who reincarnated is a NEW person, a different person, not the same guy who died.
1. Would be true if talking about a Buddha.

There is a problem with the question,
because “person” is a convenient term but is not really accurate, as it suggests some kind of self-existing entity dying and being reborn, and that’s not what actually happens (according to Buddhism).

Think of it this way: you aren’t who you were a moment ago, you are a pretty good copy of who you were a moment ago.

What that means is, at any given moment, what you experience as “person” is the result of millions of active causes. As long as the causes are mostjy the same, what results appears to be mostly the same “person”. And for humans, causes don’t change very quickly. Your hair is the same color now as it was a minute ago.
But 50 years from now, the causes of your hair color will be different. The result is that you will have different color hair. You will have causes for wrinkly skin, fragile bones, and so forth.
Although we can’t see the changes occur, because they are gradual, we can determine that change is occurring all the time. Otherwise there would be no change at all. You would still be a newborn baby perhaps. And since change is happening all the time, there is no point at which “person” can actually be located. So, “person” in this case is really a word that describes the illusion that things are not changing.
Therefore, to answer your question accurately, you can’t use a concept which is not truly accurate.

How does this relate to your question?

Because the same principle applies from lifetime to lifetime, except not necessarily with hair color or skin. In this life (or more accurately, this series of cause/result) causes are set into motion according to one’s actions of body, speech, and mind. What you do in this life produces the conditions for what will emerge as the next life.

Those causes result in “rebirth in samsara”. The term “Rebirth” is a little bit misleading (I think) but pretty accurate of a term. An entirely new person isn’t born. Rather, the causes merely continue to perpetuate the cycle, what arises is the appearance of “person”.
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Re: On Rebirth - Is it the same guy?

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

Having known a few tulkus in my youth that died and then have been reborn, I can definitely say it’s not the same “personality”. However with someone like HHK Orgyen Thinley, he does seem to have a certain impressive bearing as did Karmapa 16. It’s more on the level of an energy than personality.

I hope that helps.
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2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
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Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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heart
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Re: On Rebirth - Is it the same guy?

Post by heart »

Padmist wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 6:19 pm Would it be right or wrong to say:

1. The person who died is dead, gone, no more, not going to return or reincarnate.

2. The person who reincarnated is a NEW person, a different person, not the same guy who died.
Last life you where a goat and now you are padmist, are you the same guy?

Sentient beings don't have an ego/self that is travelling from one life to an other, this is a basic buddhist teaching. The self is an illusion. Tulkus supposedly don't really have even the illusion of a self their actions are a reflection of their circumstances.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
Padmist
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Re: On Rebirth - Is it the same guy?

Post by Padmist »

heart wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 9:21 am
Padmist wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 6:19 pm Would it be right or wrong to say:

1. The person who died is dead, gone, no more, not going to return or reincarnate.

2. The person who reincarnated is a NEW person, a different person, not the same guy who died.
Last life you where a goat and now you are padmist, are you the same guy?

Sentient beings don't have an ego/self that is travelling from one life to an other, this is a basic buddhist teaching. The self is an illusion. Tulkus supposedly don't really have even the illusion of a self their actions are a reflection of their circumstances.

/magnus
Would you say then that the goat completely died, ceased to exist, vanished and that this new Padmist is a completely different entity?
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: On Rebirth - Is it the same guy?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Padmist wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 9:43 am
heart wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 9:21 am
Padmist wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 6:19 pm Would it be right or wrong to say:

1. The person who died is dead, gone, no more, not going to return or reincarnate.

2. The person who reincarnated is a NEW person, a different person, not the same guy who died.
Last life you where a goat and now you are padmist, are you the same guy?

Sentient beings don't have an ego/self that is travelling from one life to an other, this is a basic buddhist teaching. The self is an illusion. Tulkus supposedly don't really have even the illusion of a self their actions are a reflection of their circumstances.

/magnus
Would you say then that the goat completely died, ceased to exist, vanished and that this new Padmist is a completely different entity?
The flaw in your question (and also the key to the answer, I think) is your use of the concept of “entity”. Previously, you used the concept of “person”.

Since you are asking about what happens to the entity, define what you mean by “entity”.

Buddhist theory says there is no entity
(Merely the illusion of identity).
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Re: On Rebirth - Is it the same guy?

Post by Malcolm »

Padmist wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 9:43 am
heart wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 9:21 am
Padmist wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 6:19 pm Would it be right or wrong to say:

1. The person who died is dead, gone, no more, not going to return or reincarnate.

2. The person who reincarnated is a NEW person, a different person, not the same guy who died.
Last life you where a goat and now you are padmist, are you the same guy?

Sentient beings don't have an ego/self that is travelling from one life to an other, this is a basic buddhist teaching. The self is an illusion. Tulkus supposedly don't really have even the illusion of a self their actions are a reflection of their circumstances.

/magnus
Would you say then that the goat completely died, ceased to exist, vanished and that this new Padmist is a completely different entity?
Nothings transfers from this life to the next, but aggregates are serially connected.
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Re: On Rebirth - Is it the same guy?

Post by heart »

Padmist wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 9:43 am
heart wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 9:21 am
Padmist wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 6:19 pm Would it be right or wrong to say:

1. The person who died is dead, gone, no more, not going to return or reincarnate.

2. The person who reincarnated is a NEW person, a different person, not the same guy who died.
Last life you where a goat and now you are padmist, are you the same guy?

Sentient beings don't have an ego/self that is travelling from one life to an other, this is a basic buddhist teaching. The self is an illusion. Tulkus supposedly don't really have even the illusion of a self their actions are a reflection of their circumstances.

/magnus
Would you say then that the goat completely died, ceased to exist, vanished and that this new Padmist is a completely different entity?
When padmist see a beautiful patch of green grass his mouth begin to water. Habits do endure, that is karma.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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Re: On Rebirth - Is it the same guy?

Post by heart »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 1:35 pm
Padmist wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 9:43 am
heart wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 9:21 am

Last life you where a goat and now you are padmist, are you the same guy?

Sentient beings don't have an ego/self that is travelling from one life to an other, this is a basic buddhist teaching. The self is an illusion. Tulkus supposedly don't really have even the illusion of a self their actions are a reflection of their circumstances.

/magnus
Would you say then that the goat completely died, ceased to exist, vanished and that this new Padmist is a completely different entity?
Nothings transfers from this life to the next, but aggregates are serially connected.
:good:
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
fckw
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Re: On Rebirth - Is it the same guy?

Post by fckw »

Unfortunately, no definition of "sameness" is given here in relation to "guy", so the question cannot be answered.
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Re: On Rebirth - Is it the same guy?

Post by Padmist »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 12:08 pm The flaw in your question (and also the key to the answer, I think) is your use of the concept of “entity”. Previously, you used the concept of “person”.

Since you are asking about what happens to the entity, define what you mean by “entity”.

Buddhist theory says there is no entity
(Merely the illusion of identity).
Then let's go with the "illusion of identity". The false self. The conventional day-to-day thing you refer to as "I". The conventional illusion false "I" you referred to as you open this thread and say "Oh yeah, "I" posted that earlier for Padmist and "I" will reply to this new post he made." We both know that "I" doesn't really exist fundamentally. There is no lasting, independently existing, self there. Only the illusion of self as you said. And yet, this illusion of self is what you refer to as "you" posted yesterday and "you" are continuing on with this conversation today. For the sake of conventional speaking, we can agree that there wasn't another guy who hacked into your account yesterday, using your handle, and knows your password. It is the same continually persisting "you". (conventionally and illusory speaking) Otherwise, you'd probably call your banks to change your PIN numbers and passwords because there's another different guy hacking into your accounts. No, the banks and you will agree that the person yesterday using your online accounts is.....you. The same guy. Conventionally speaking, illusory speaking.

I hope that we established that?

Now, in the same manner, that the "you" (the "guy") who posted earlier or yesterday is the same "you" who is reading today, and the same "you" who will reply to this (aka, the same guy) and in the same manner that the "you" who used your bank account last week is the same "you" who will use it this weekend, let's suppose that this "you" dies and is reborn. Is the reborn person the same you/guy?

IF it is the same guy in the examples, we can expect a continuity of behavior/activities/relationship. You are replying to this post. That is a continuity of activity "you" made yesterday. We can therefore expect that IF it is the same guy who died, this newly reborn person will...at the very least visit his parents, wife, children, visit his old office, know where he hides his lighter, finds his old computer in the basement of his old office, turns on his Windows 98 computer, still knowing the password, logs in to Yahoo Mail, still knowing his password, and reopening the Draft folder to continue the reply on a mailing list thread he was writing in the previous life which is an online debate about Clinton's action in Kosovo. That kind of same "guy". The way the "you" now is the same "you" talking to me yesterday on this chat, no matter how false or illusory (without fundamental essence) that "you" is. Yet conventionally speaking, it is the same guy.

IF it is not the same guy, then can we say then that the guy who died is just that. Dead, gone, perished from existence, nowhere and not coming back, and that this new person who was "reborn" is just that. A new totally different guy?
Last edited by Padmist on Fri Sep 24, 2021 8:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Padmist
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Re: On Rebirth - Is it the same guy?

Post by Padmist »

heart wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 5:17 pm
Padmist wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 9:43 am
heart wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 9:21 am

Last life you where a goat and now you are padmist, are you the same guy?

Sentient beings don't have an ego/self that is travelling from one life to an other, this is a basic buddhist teaching. The self is an illusion. Tulkus supposedly don't really have even the illusion of a self their actions are a reflection of their circumstances.

/magnus
Would you say then that the goat completely died, ceased to exist, vanished and that this new Padmist is a completely different entity?
When padmist see a beautiful patch of green grass his mouth begin to water. Habits do endure, that is karma.

/magnus
Great. So characteristics carried through? Can we say then that Padmist is a totally different new persona and not in any way connected to that goat who died except that goats karma/characteristics/habits got transferred to the newly born guy (Padmist)?
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Re: On Rebirth - Is it the same guy?

Post by heart »

Padmist wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 8:21 pm
heart wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 5:17 pm
Padmist wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 9:43 am

Would you say then that the goat completely died, ceased to exist, vanished and that this new Padmist is a completely different entity?
When padmist see a beautiful patch of green grass his mouth begin to water. Habits do endure, that is karma.

/magnus
Great. So characteristics carried through? Can we say then that Padmist is a totally different new persona and not in any way connected to that goat who died except that goats karma/characteristics/habits got transferred to the newly born guy (Padmist)?
Habits are carried through. Of course you are connected with the goat, because you have the habits of the goat. Greed, lust, anger, ignorance and a strange urge for green grass. Is it a persona? You tell me.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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Re: On Rebirth - Is it the same guy?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Padmist wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 8:19 pm
Then let's go with the "illusion of identity". The false self…

IF it is not the same guy, then can we say then that the guy who died is just that. Dead, gone, perished from existence, nowhere and not coming back, and that this new person who was "reborn" is just that. A new totally different guy?

Thanks for being clear!
I think it was Nagarjuna who says ‘not the same/not different’.

One thing, however is that just as two rivers can be distinguished from one another, the Nile and the Amazon, each one in itself is constantly changing. You can’t stand in a river twice (or even once, Malcolm has pointed out). So, it’s important not to confuse the two aspects of an “entity”.

So, “you who is reading this” and “you as different from me” are two different things.

Returning to the question of whether what continues from point A to point B (lifetime to lifetime) is the same entity or different, within itself it never was the same to begin with. As you say, the illusion of self that we each experience.
If there is no cause for that illusion to re-manifest itself, there will be no re-manifest as a result.

The logical question then, might be “how does “karmic imprint” work? Why, if I have certain actions in this life, the results of those actions will arise in a future life?”

The thing to keep in mind is that there isn’t an entity that owns those actions. It’s just the reverse: the actions produce the conditions for the illusion of the entity. But it’s been a beginningless cycle.
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Re: On Rebirth - Is it the same guy?

Post by Malcolm »

Padmist wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 8:21 pm
Great. So characteristics carried through? Can we say then that Padmist is a totally different new persona and not in any way connected to that goat who died except that goats karma/characteristics/habits got transferred to the newly born guy (Padmist)?
No, you cannot say that.

No entity passes from this life to the next, but the aggregates of the life are serially connected to the aggregates of the next, so there is a continuum.
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Re: On Rebirth - Is it the same guy?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 9:52 pm
Padmist wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 8:21 pm
Great. So characteristics carried through? Can we say then that Padmist is a totally different new persona and not in any way connected to that goat who died except that goats karma/characteristics/habits got transferred to the newly born guy (Padmist)?
No, you cannot say that.

No entity passes from this life to the next, but the aggregates of the life are serially connected to the aggregates of the next, so there is a continuum.
The aggregates is like a box of 1000 LEGO bricks. You put them together to make a shape. That’s this life.

If you take the shape apart, the first shape is dead, then if you build another shape, it’s a different shape. That’s the next life.

But since LEGOs was the condition in the previous construction, LEGOS is the condition for what gets built as a new shape.

If greed is one of your building blocks in this life, it will still be a building block in the next life, even if that next life is in the shape of a goat.

No self or entity is truly occurring, merely constructions built of aggregates. (But not exactly reconstructions, as Malcolm said, serial connections)
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Padmist
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Re: On Rebirth - Is it the same guy?

Post by Padmist »

re: PadmavonSamba

Can we say...

When John dies, he's just dead. Gone. It's over. Nothing from John is going to get carried through the next life. No transfer, nothing. If he's going to be reborn as Andy, this person is not John. It's a totally different guy.
Last edited by Padmist on Sat Sep 25, 2021 12:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
Padmist
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Re: On Rebirth - Is it the same guy?

Post by Padmist »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 9:52 pm
Padmist wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 8:21 pm
Great. So characteristics carried through? Can we say then that Padmist is a totally different new persona and not in any way connected to that goat who died except that goats karma/characteristics/habits got transferred to the newly born guy (Padmist)?
No, you cannot say that.

No entity passes from this life to the next, but the aggregates of the life are serially connected to the aggregates of the next, so there is a continuum.
You meant the 2nd part right?

We can't say this -> "that goats karma/characteristics/habits got transferred to the newly born guy (Padmist)"

But can I say this? -> When you die, you just die, it's over. No reincarnation or resurrection or anything. If "you" are reborn, it isn't you at all. It's a totally different new guy.
Last edited by Padmist on Sat Sep 25, 2021 12:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: On Rebirth - Is it the same guy?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Padmist wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 12:07 am re: PadmavonSamba

Can we say...

When John dies, he's just dead. Gone. It's over. Nothing from John is going to get carried through the next life. No transfer, nothing. If he's going to be reborn as Andy, this person is not John. It's a totally different guy.
Nothing “from” John is going to get carried through the next life because ultimately there is no entity “John” to begin with so how could it?
If an entity doesn’t truly exist, the entity has nothing to pass along.

John doesn’t own the aggregates.
John is the result of the aggregates arising together.

At the same time, the aggregates that add up to John in this life are the causes for the aggregates to arise in the next life, as Andy.
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Re: On Rebirth - Is it the same guy?

Post by KristenM »

I like PadmaVonSamba's Legos explanation, I can understand that (been playing with Legos for work-related stuff a LOT lately).

Are aggregates essentially the elements/Buddha Families? What is a mindstream? Is that essentially some aggregates?

As Malcolm said in 2010 on DW:

"There is a difference between "eternal" and "permanent." Nirvana, for example, is permanent, but it is not eternal. Mind streams are permanent in the sense only that they are a ceaseless continuum of moments. Space is eternal, since it was never created. All eternal phenomena are permanent as well, but not all permanent phenomena are eternal."
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