There's a reincarnation of Chogyam Trungpa and emanation of Padmasambhava?

Forum for discussion of Tibetan Buddhism. Questions specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: There's a reincarnation of Chogyam Trungpa and emanation of Padmasambhava?

Post by Malcolm »

PeterC wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 5:01 pm There were other vajrayana teachers in the west before and at the same time as Mukpo, it’s not like he was the only game in town.
No, but he was the only person who had a publisher/book store owner as one of his students. CTR's relationship with Sam Bercholz, more than any other single factor, was responsible for his swift rise and success in opening Dharma centers throughout North America. He founded Vajradhātu in 1973, the same year his first major book came out, Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism. Indeed, it was among the first books on Buddhism I ever read, along with Myth of Freedom, Three Pillars of Zen, Zen Mind Beginners Mind, Zen Bones, Zen Flesh, etc. in 1978. By the time I went to work in bookstore owned by member of Vajradhātu, Trident Books in Boston, in 1987. The Regent scandal was in the making, since Trungpa had died earlier that year. I never did join the local Dharmadhātu. I did do a couple of Shambhala levels, but found the teachers that I encountered in that program extremely unimpressive and pompous. There were also clear problems with rampant sexual harassment of new female students and wide-spread alcoholism in that sangha. But this seems to be a problem in every large sangha that I can think of.
Knotty Veneer
Posts: 967
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2012 1:50 pm

Re: There's a reincarnation of Chogyam Trungpa and emanation of Padmasambhava?

Post by Knotty Veneer »

Agree with Malcolm that Sam Bercholz really provided the foundation for the growth of Buddhism in the US. Chogyam Trungpa's legacy has diminished. His books read more and more of their time and I'd bet his student Pema Chodron's works outsell them many times over at this point. His legacy in Shambhala has largely imploded - as it was bound to. A "spiritual monarchy" in this day and age was bound to fall prey to the very issues which have consumed Shambhala.

I think Chogyam Trungpa's role in establishing the Dharma in the West is important but has been largely overstated because of the magazines and publishing arm that Shambhala runs. No other teacher of the era (or their direct students) has that sort of publicity machine that I can think of.

The Dharma flourished in Europe without the input of Shambhala. I think his, and indeed the influence of any one teacher from the 60s/70s period, will not be seen as decisive in the growth of the Dharma in the West in the current century.
This is not the wrong life.
User avatar
heart
Posts: 6288
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: There's a reincarnation of Chogyam Trungpa and emanation of Padmasambhava?

Post by heart »

Malcolm wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 4:57 pm
heart wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 4:46 pmOver the years I met many of Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche's student and they have been utterly serious about their practice. That is worthy of respect in my book.

/magnus
I don’t think there are many of them left in Shambala.
I think you are right, most of them I know had issues with Trungpa jr. long before the current situation.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: There's a reincarnation of Chogyam Trungpa and emanation of Padmasambhava?

Post by Malcolm »

heart wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 7:40 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 4:57 pm
heart wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 4:46 pmOver the years I met many of Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche's student and they have been utterly serious about their practice. That is worthy of respect in my book.

/magnus
I don’t think there are many of them left in Shambala.
I think you are right, most of them I know had issues with Trungpa jr. long before the current situation.

/magnus
Anyway, they seem to have badly gone off the rails. It no longer resembles the organization Trungpa left behind, warts and all. I have concerns that the Dzogchen Community will also go this way.
SilenceMonkey
Posts: 1448
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2018 9:54 am

Re: There's a reincarnation of Chogyam Trungpa and emanation of Padmasambhava?

Post by SilenceMonkey »

heart wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 7:40 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 4:57 pm
heart wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 4:46 pmOver the years I met many of Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche's student and they have been utterly serious about their practice. That is worthy of respect in my book.

/magnus
I don’t think there are many of them left in Shambala.
I think you are right, most of them I know had issues with Trungpa jr. long before the current situation.

/magnus
I went to an event at a shambhala center last weekend. There were a couple people there who had a palpable spiritual quality, old students of Chogyam Trungpa. But for the most part it seemed the culture was pretty worldly... just my impression (and judgement). I think it’s hard to practice authentically as a Dharma community without the guidance of an enlightened master.
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: There's a reincarnation of Chogyam Trungpa and emanation of Padmasambhava?

Post by Malcolm »

SilenceMonkey wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 1:42 am
heart wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 7:40 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 4:57 pm

I don’t think there are many of them left in Shambala.
I think you are right, most of them I know had issues with Trungpa jr. long before the current situation.

/magnus
I went to an event at a shambhala center last weekend. There were a couple people there who had a palpable spiritual quality, old students of Chogyam Trungpa. But for the most part it seemed the culture was pretty worldly... just my impression (and judgement). I think it’s hard to practice authentically as a Dharma community without the guidance of an enlightened master.
It’s very totally open to question whether CTR was an “enlightened master.” He got away with far more than Sogyal ever did.
SilenceMonkey
Posts: 1448
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2018 9:54 am

Re: There's a reincarnation of Chogyam Trungpa and emanation of Padmasambhava?

Post by SilenceMonkey »

Malcolm wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 1:45 am
SilenceMonkey wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 1:42 am
heart wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 7:40 pm

I think you are right, most of them I know had issues with Trungpa jr. long before the current situation.

/magnus
I went to an event at a shambhala center last weekend. There were a couple people there who had a palpable spiritual quality, old students of Chogyam Trungpa. But for the most part it seemed the culture was pretty worldly... just my impression (and judgement). I think it’s hard to practice authentically as a Dharma community without the guidance of an enlightened master.
It’s very totally open to question whether CTR was an “enlightened master.” He got away with far more than Sogyal ever did.
That’s fair. It’s also fair to question whether he was leading people in the direction of enlightenment. Personally, I think he did.

My point was that it seems like there’s not such a person to fill the power vacuum, and it seems (to me) like the values are moving away from the direction of liberation from samsara.
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: There's a reincarnation of Chogyam Trungpa and emanation of Padmasambhava?

Post by Malcolm »

SilenceMonkey wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 1:51 am
That’s fair. It’s also fair to question whether he was leading people in the direction of enlightenment. Personally, I think he did.
Maybe. So did Sogyal and a lot of other flawed teachers. And like Sogyal, he alienated a lot of people from the path.
PeterC
Posts: 5192
Joined: Tue May 20, 2014 12:38 pm

Re: There's a reincarnation of Chogyam Trungpa and emanation of Padmasambhava?

Post by PeterC »

Malcolm wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 10:14 pm
heart wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 7:40 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 4:57 pm

I don’t think there are many of them left in Shambala.
I think you are right, most of them I know had issues with Trungpa jr. long before the current situation.

/magnus
Anyway, they seem to have badly gone off the rails. It no longer resembles the organization Trungpa left behind, warts and all. I have concerns that the Dzogchen Community will also go this way.
I don't really see the DC choosing leaders who happen to be rapists with drug problems, so the odds of that are low. The risk with the DC is of inability to move on leading it to becoming a retirement home for an increasingly small number of practitioners. It is however frustrating that mukpo sr's revealed practices continue to be propagated - though not so much by his older students - while ChNNr's termas look increasingly likely to die out in this generation.
Knotty Veneer
Posts: 967
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2012 1:50 pm

Re: There's a reincarnation of Chogyam Trungpa and emanation of Padmasambhava?

Post by Knotty Veneer »

PeterC wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 2:18 am I don't really see the DC choosing leaders who happen to be rapists with drug problems, so the odds of that are low. The risk with the DC is of inability to move on leading it to becoming a retirement home for an increasingly small number of practitioners. It is however frustrating that mukpo sr's revealed practices continue to be propagated - though not so much by his older students - while ChNNr's termas look increasingly likely to die out in this generation.
I think the period immediately after the passing of a founder is the real crunch time for any organisation. If the founder has thought ahead about or succession or at least is part of wider lineage I think that helps ease things. If, however, s/he was doing something completely unique or the organisation ran largely on the founder's charisma, then there is always the strong possibility it will not survive.

Take the well-known spirit-worshipping cult that shall not be named. Its founder has not been seen in public since 2013 when he was 82. It's a good guess that he is dead or perhaps greatly incapacitated by stroke or dementia or whatever. His organisation clearly have no idea what to do so they keep it quiet and hope the new management can bed in before numbers start falling off because the great leader is gone.

I do not know so much about DC but don't think it's in anything like the same danger. Shambhala in addition to losing its charismatic founder has a structural fault, a single point of failure in the role of the Sakyong. Absolute power corrupts etc.

It will be interesting to see how many of the Western Buddhist organisations that swelled in the late 20th century due to the charisma of one person manage to survive.
This is not the wrong life.
User avatar
tobes
Posts: 2194
Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2010 5:02 am

Re: There's a reincarnation of Chogyam Trungpa and emanation of Padmasambhava?

Post by tobes »

The question is: what can we learn from all of these examples?

I'm increasingly coming to the view that lo-fi/ minimal institution is the best way forward. Lama Lena style.
PeterC
Posts: 5192
Joined: Tue May 20, 2014 12:38 pm

Re: There's a reincarnation of Chogyam Trungpa and emanation of Padmasambhava?

Post by PeterC »

tobes wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 9:10 am The question is: what can we learn from all of these examples?

I'm increasingly coming to the view that lo-fi/ minimal institution is the best way forward. Lama Lena style.
Well, at least two things:

1. There are enough teachers around of impeccable reputation, who do nothing but teach the Dharma, that one should not need to get involved with marginal/questionable cases

2. Maintain a safe distance from organizations and institutions, particularly those who demand that you have an exclusive relationship with them
Knotty Veneer
Posts: 967
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2012 1:50 pm

Re: There's a reincarnation of Chogyam Trungpa and emanation of Padmasambhava?

Post by Knotty Veneer »

tobes wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 9:10 am The question is: what can we learn from all of these examples?

I'm increasingly coming to the view that lo-fi/ minimal institution is the best way forward. Lama Lena style.
I think there are groups who have managed this - even in the wake of scandal.

San Francisco Zen Center for example. Suzuki Roshi passed control to Richard Baker on his death - Baker turned out to be pretty scandal-prone. They revamped their entire organisation in the light of the problems with Baker, created a new system of rotating abbot positions to stop one person getting too much power and a constitution that ensured any issues where fairly and quickly addressed.

The Triratna Buddhist Community seems to have survived the scandals involving its leader. - not sure how/if they implemented measures to stop abuse happening again though. Sangharakshita though did not have the powerful charisma of a Chogyam Trungpa though so perhaps their job was not so difficult. They do not seem to have a central leader figure anymore though.

I think the tulku system in Tibetan Buddhism makes it easier for unscrupulous teachers. Western followers can get a bit star-struck by someone with Rinpoche in their title. Sogyal did not have much in the way of retreat or study experience but he was very well connected and had the gift of the gab. The title did most of the work for him. And his students wanted to believe he was something special.

For TBists, until we can learn to identify teachers by the quality of their actions and not just rely on the titles and the praises of their friends and students, we will see more Osel Mukpo's and Sogyal Lakars.
This is not the wrong life.
User avatar
tobes
Posts: 2194
Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2010 5:02 am

Re: There's a reincarnation of Chogyam Trungpa and emanation of Padmasambhava?

Post by tobes »

Th fundamental question seems to be: how do you square the 8 worldly concerns with institution building etc? It is rare (but not impossible) for them to not be inconsistent. And this is not just a Buddhism in the west problem - Tibetan history is filled with endless chapters of it.
Giovanni
Posts: 765
Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2020 11:07 am

Re: There's a reincarnation of Chogyam Trungpa and emanation of Padmasambhava?

Post by Giovanni »

tobes wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 9:10 am The question is: what can we learn from all of these examples?

I'm increasingly coming to the view that lo-fi/ minimal institution is the best way forward. Lama Lena style.
I don’t think that ‘lo if’/minimal guarantees no future scandal.That comes down to individual teachers. It’s just that the percentages of likely fall out are lower. The dynamic within the group might be worse because more concentrated.
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: There's a reincarnation of Chogyam Trungpa and emanation of Padmasambhava?

Post by Malcolm »

Knotty Veneer wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 9:28 am Sogyal did not have much in the way of retreat or study experience but he was very well connected and had the gift of the gab. The title did most of the work for him. And his students wanted to believe he was something special.
Which is important for them, and proper in every respect. The same goes for the students of Trungpa. Despite whatever misgivings I have about both of these teacher's conduct, they knew the rules, did the retreats, etc., even if they may have used the "unconventional behavior" card too much to excuse what was, frankly, gross misbehavior, some of it completely abusive by modern standards.
For TBists, until we can learn to identify teachers by the quality of their actions and not just rely on the titles and the praises of their friends and students, we will see more Osel Mukpo's and Sogyal Lakars.
We will see more of them anyway. As you point out, the history of Indo-Tibetan Buddhism is full of characters whose behavior is quite appalling. It is not like there is going to be a Church of Reformed Tibetan Buddhism, though the Ngorpas and the Gelugpas also tried. Tibetan history is full of warlord gurus like Lama Zhang, sorcerers like Rwa Lotsawa and Milarepa, libertines like Drukpa Kunlay and more recently, Reting Rinpoche, semi-Buddhist mystics with wrongs views like Sanggye Kargyal, etc., etc.
Knotty Veneer
Posts: 967
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2012 1:50 pm

Re: There's a reincarnation of Chogyam Trungpa and emanation of Padmasambhava?

Post by Knotty Veneer »

I agree that one should try to see their teacher as something special - up to the point where the evidence of the their eyes tells them something different. The problem is people did speak out but were sidelined and ignored.

A lot of people refused to accept the evidence of their eyes and their own common sense where Trungpa's and Sogyal's and Osel Mukpo's conduct was concerned. A groupthink set in in their organisations which protected the guru as being beyond the standards other people are judged by and this caused further bad behavior to be perpetrated.

At least groups like the SFZC were awake clever enough to try and stop that kind of groupthink from taking root too strongly.

The myths and stories of crazy wisdom teachers only usually ever serve to explain away bad behavior.
This is not the wrong life.
Giovanni
Posts: 765
Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2020 11:07 am

Re: There's a reincarnation of Chogyam Trungpa and emanation of Padmasambhava?

Post by Giovanni »

Knotty Veneer wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 2:50 pm I agree that one should try to see their teacher as something special - up to the point where the evidence of the their eyes tells them something different. The problem is people did speak out but were sidelined and ignored.

A lot of people refused to accept the evidence of their eyes and their own common sense where Trungpa's and Sogyal's and Osel Mukpo's conduct was concerned. A groupthink set in in their organisations which protected the guru as being beyond the standards other people are judged by and this caused further bad behavior to be perpetrated.

At least groups like the SFZC were awake clever enough to try and stop that kind of groupthink from taking root too strongly.

The myths and stories of crazy wisdom teachers only usually ever serve to explain away bad behavior.
:good:
We must remember that the populariser of the term ‘crazy wisdom’ was among the chief abusers hiding behind the term. In retrospect it’s all pretty transparent, but many western students back then had few valid criteria and saw ordinary decency as
somehow undharmic. They thought that the only alternative to being asleep was to be ‘crazy’…
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: There's a reincarnation of Chogyam Trungpa and emanation of Padmasambhava?

Post by Malcolm »

Knotty Veneer wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 2:50 pm I agree that one should try to see their teacher as something special - up to the point where the evidence of the their eyes tells them something different. The problem is people did speak out but were sidelined and ignored.
Sure, for a whole host of reasons.
A lot of people refused to accept the evidence of their eyes and their own common sense where Trungpa's and Sogyal's and Osel Mukpo's conduct was concerned.
And now we have the wait and see whether the paternity test for Karmapa OTD proves to be positive or not, should there be one. How many Karma Kagyus will refuse to accept the results if they are positive? And if there isn't one, because that case in Canada is settled out of court, how many Karma Kagyus will insist that the settlement does not prove anything? How can a lineage accept a person accused of rape as a lineage head, as long as there is any doubt as to their innocence or guilt?

This story has huge implications for Tibetan Buddhism, no matter which way it turns out.
Knotty Veneer
Posts: 967
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2012 1:50 pm

Re: There's a reincarnation of Chogyam Trungpa and emanation of Padmasambhava?

Post by Knotty Veneer »

Malcolm wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 3:31 pm And now we have the wait and see whether the paternity test for Karmapa OTD proves to be positive or not, should there be one. How many Karma Kagyus will refuse to accept the results if they are positive? And if there isn't one, because that case in Canada is settled out of court, how many Karma Kagyus will insist that the settlement does not prove anything? How can a lineage accept a person accused of rape as a lineage head, as long as there is any doubt as to their innocence or guilt?

This story has huge implications for Tibetan Buddhism, no matter which way it turns out.
Absolutely! If this does turn out to be true then the cat is well and truly among the pigeons.
This is not the wrong life.
Locked

Return to “Tibetan Buddhism”