There's a reincarnation of Chogyam Trungpa and emanation of Padmasambhava?

Forum for discussion of Tibetan Buddhism. Questions specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: There's a reincarnation of Chogyam Trungpa and emanation of Padmasambhava?

Post by Malcolm »

Knotty Veneer wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 10:39 am
PeterC wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 10:23 am Didn't they show up at his monastery anyway and hold some sort of enthronement ceremony for Mukpo Jr.?

Nobody in their right mind would entrust anyone's education to that group
I'm not sure - I know Shambhala were late to the party for the XIIth Trungpa (as well as for the 17th Karmapa!). My teacher the late Akong Rinpoche, I believe, was one of his main benefactors for many years (and his organization Rokpa may still be).

Shambhala has little to do with the traditional teachings of the Trungpa lineage and even though some members (and former members like Pema Chodron) practise within the Kagyu tradition to some degree, I think they are their own thing. So while it is good that Shambhala help with some money, their interest is not really with the Trungpa lineage so much as with the teachings specific to the 11th Trungpa. Whether the current Trungpa will take any of those up, we wait to see. I cannot imagine him though requesting a lineage transmission from Osel Mukpo the current holder though, so it's probably unlikely.

At this point the Shambhala lineage is not even Buddhist. It has become a strange cult of Gesar, with a bit of Bon and Kalacakra mythos tossed in for good measure.
Knotty Veneer
Posts: 967
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2012 1:50 pm

Re: There's a reincarnation of Chogyam Trungpa and emanation of Padmasambhava?

Post by Knotty Veneer »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 4:11 pm At this point the Shambhala lineage is not even Buddhist. It has become a strange cult of Gesar, with a bit of Bon and Kalacakra mythos tossed in for good measure.
Would agree. Always considered its relationship to Tibetan Buddhism, the same as that of Mormonism to mainstream Protestantism. An American pastiche of the original. A new religion for a new continent. A bit of hokum.

It has never really taken off in Europe. We are not impressed by absolute monarchies so much any more. It's strange that the US, given its founding myth, would be the seed bed for a spiritual monarchial movement.
This is not the wrong life.
GrapeLover
Posts: 291
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2020 12:55 am

Re: There's a reincarnation of Chogyam Trungpa and emanation of Padmasambhava?

Post by GrapeLover »

Josef wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 3:53 pm
Losal Samten wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 8:54 pm
Padmist wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 7:32 pm So Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche is back?
IIRC the last Chogyam Trungpa said he was actually the reincarnation of the previous Trungpa's attendant.
That kind of makes a lot of sense.
How so? Just interested。
Knotty Veneer
Posts: 967
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2012 1:50 pm

Re: There's a reincarnation of Chogyam Trungpa and emanation of Padmasambhava?

Post by Knotty Veneer »

Wonder too if the Twelfth Trungpa ever got the lineage seals of office etc that were in the possession of Chogyam Trungpa? Or did Shambhala hold on to those?
This is not the wrong life.
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: There's a reincarnation of Chogyam Trungpa and emanation of Padmasambhava?

Post by Malcolm »

Knotty Veneer wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 4:20 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 4:11 pm At this point the Shambhala lineage is not even Buddhist. It has become a strange cult of Gesar, with a bit of Bon and Kalacakra mythos tossed in for good measure.
Would agree. Always considered its relationship to Tibetan Buddhism, the same as that of Mormonism to mainstream Protestantism. An American pastiche of the original. A new religion for a new continent. A bit of hokum.

It has never really taken off in Europe. We are not impressed by absolute monarchies so much any more. It's strange that the US, given its founding myth, would be the seed bed for a spiritual monarchial movement.
Umm, the Shambhala thing found its home in Canada, because Americans do not like kings in general. Canada is a monarchy, at least, the Queen thinks so:

https://www.royal.uk/canada
Knotty Veneer
Posts: 967
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2012 1:50 pm

Re: There's a reincarnation of Chogyam Trungpa and emanation of Padmasambhava?

Post by Knotty Veneer »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 5:30 pm
Umm, the Shambhala thing found its home in Canada, because Americans do not like kings in general. Canada is a monarchy, at least, the Queen thinks so:

https://www.royal.uk/canada
Well, maybe but I don't think you can shift the blame onto the Canadians, entirely.
This is not the wrong life.
PeterC
Posts: 5190
Joined: Tue May 20, 2014 12:38 pm

Re: There's a reincarnation of Chogyam Trungpa and emanation of Padmasambhava?

Post by PeterC »

Knotty Veneer wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 5:50 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 5:30 pm
Umm, the Shambhala thing found its home in Canada, because Americans do not like kings in general. Canada is a monarchy, at least, the Queen thinks so:

https://www.royal.uk/canada
Well, maybe but I don't think you can shift the blame onto the Canadians, entirely.
Au contraire, mon ami…

SilenceMonkey
Posts: 1448
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2018 9:54 am

Re: There's a reincarnation of Chogyam Trungpa and emanation of Padmasambhava?

Post by SilenceMonkey »

PeterC wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 1:46 am
Au contraire, mon ami…
"They're not even a real country anyway." :rolling:
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: There's a reincarnation of Chogyam Trungpa and emanation of Padmasambhava?

Post by Malcolm »

SilenceMonkey wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 4:04 pm
PeterC wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 1:46 am
Au contraire, mon ami…
"They're not even a real country anyway." :rolling:
It's important to remember this was all brought on the the kid's addiction to the Terrance and Phillip show:



Hence the Blame Canada campaign.
DGA
Former staff member
Posts: 9466
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:04 pm

Re: There's a reincarnation of Chogyam Trungpa and emanation of Padmasambhava?

Post by DGA »

I'm just trying to figure out what to do with these lapel pins
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: There's a reincarnation of Chogyam Trungpa and emanation of Padmasambhava?

Post by Malcolm »

DGA wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 10:30 pm I'm just trying to figure out what to do with these lapel pins
Hang on to them, they’ll be collectible someday. Especially the early bacon and eggs pin of Shambhala level 5.
Knotty Veneer
Posts: 967
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2012 1:50 pm

Re: There's a reincarnation of Chogyam Trungpa and emanation of Padmasambhava?

Post by Knotty Veneer »

DGA wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 10:30 pm I'm just trying to figure out what to do with these lapel pins
:jumping:
This is not the wrong life.
User avatar
cky
Posts: 92
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2016 3:00 pm

Re: There's a reincarnation of Chogyam Trungpa and emanation of Padmasambhava?

Post by cky »

Just letting you know that the tone is disrespectful towards students of Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche. Its not your lineage and you dont like it, we get it.
PeterC
Posts: 5190
Joined: Tue May 20, 2014 12:38 pm

Re: There's a reincarnation of Chogyam Trungpa and emanation of Padmasambhava?

Post by PeterC »

cky wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 9:30 am Just letting you know that the tone is disrespectful towards students of Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche. Its not your lineage and you dont like it, we get it.
Do you feel they are owed respect? For what reason?
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: There's a reincarnation of Chogyam Trungpa and emanation of Padmasambhava?

Post by Malcolm »

cky wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 9:30 am Just letting you know that the tone is disrespectful towards students of Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche. Its not your lineage and you dont like it, we get it.
I have no problem with students of CTR or of Shambhala.

Shambhala itself, however has become something quite strange under the leadership of Osel Mukpo.

Going for refuge to mythical Rigdens? The obsessive focus on Gesar? Really? How is this Buddhadharma? Then there is Mukpo himself, who is in the process of an ugly divorce from Shambhala International, because the latter recognize that the former is a liability and not an asset.
User avatar
heart
Posts: 6287
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: There's a reincarnation of Chogyam Trungpa and emanation of Padmasambhava?

Post by heart »

PeterC wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 12:26 pm
cky wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 9:30 am Just letting you know that the tone is disrespectful towards students of Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche. Its not your lineage and you dont like it, we get it.
Do you feel they are owed respect? For what reason?
Of course you should show them respect since they are a group of very serious practitioners.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
PeterC
Posts: 5190
Joined: Tue May 20, 2014 12:38 pm

Re: There's a reincarnation of Chogyam Trungpa and emanation of Padmasambhava?

Post by PeterC »

heart wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 3:35 pm
PeterC wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 12:26 pm
cky wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 9:30 am Just letting you know that the tone is disrespectful towards students of Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche. Its not your lineage and you dont like it, we get it.
Do you feel they are owed respect? For what reason?
Of course you should show them respect since they are a group of very serious practitioners.

/magnus
I politely disagree with that reasoning, though I fear whenever we get into a discussion of the mukpos here we’re only a few posts away from the discussion becoming futile.

Nobody gets to demand respect for their sangha by default. I certainly don’t demand that anyone respect my sangha or my lamas: I don’t care if they are respected or not. I don’t think any serious practitioner should need to feel that that their sangha is respected. Some students of that sangha are very serious practitioners indeed, and I’m sure it’s completely irrelevant to them what others think of their lama. But the sangha is a trainwreck, and it would be impossible to pretend otherwise. The common response of waving that away because “that’s just Mukpo’s crazy enlightened teaching method” etc is frankly a bit disrespectful to all the other teachers who manage to teach the dharma perfectly well without resorting to that sort of circus.

Sure I can express respect in the abstract sense that they practice the Dharma, and any practice of the Dharma is commendable, with the important caveat that I’m not really sure that the “shambhala” stuff really is Buddhadharma. But that’s about all I can express.
User avatar
heart
Posts: 6287
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: There's a reincarnation of Chogyam Trungpa and emanation of Padmasambhava?

Post by heart »

PeterC wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 4:28 pm
heart wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 3:35 pm
PeterC wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 12:26 pm

Do you feel they are owed respect? For what reason?
Of course you should show them respect since they are a group of very serious practitioners.

/magnus
I politely disagree with that reasoning, though I fear whenever we get into a discussion of the mukpos here we’re only a few posts away from the discussion becoming futile.

Nobody gets to demand respect for their sangha by default. I certainly don’t demand that anyone respect my sangha or my lamas: I don’t care if they are respected or not. I don’t think any serious practitioner should need to feel that that their sangha is respected. Some students of that sangha are very serious practitioners indeed, and I’m sure it’s completely irrelevant to them what others think of their lama. But the sangha is a trainwreck, and it would be impossible to pretend otherwise. The common response of waving that away because “that’s just Mukpo’s crazy enlightened teaching method” etc is frankly a bit disrespectful to all the other teachers who manage to teach the dharma perfectly well without resorting to that sort of circus.

Sure I can express respect in the abstract sense that they practice the Dharma, and any practice of the Dharma is commendable, with the important caveat that I’m not really sure that the “shambhala” stuff really is Buddhadharma. But that’s about all I can express.

Disrespecting other practitioners is not a good habit. I personally feel I. owe Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche a lot, without him I think Dharma would have been seriously crippled here in the west. Over the years I met many of Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche's student and they have been utterly serious about their practice. That is worthy of respect in my book.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: There's a reincarnation of Chogyam Trungpa and emanation of Padmasambhava?

Post by Malcolm »

heart wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 4:46 pmOver the years I met many of Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche's student and they have been utterly serious about their practice. That is worthy of respect in my book.

/magnus
I don’t think there are many of them left in Shambala.
PeterC
Posts: 5190
Joined: Tue May 20, 2014 12:38 pm

Re: There's a reincarnation of Chogyam Trungpa and emanation of Padmasambhava?

Post by PeterC »

heart wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 4:46 pm
Disrespecting other practitioners is not a good habit. I personally feel I. owe Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche a lot, without him I think Dharma would have been seriously crippled here in the west. Over the years I met many of Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche's student and they have been utterly serious about their practice. That is worthy of respect in my book.

/magnus
It isn’t a choice between “respect” and “disrespect”. We can choose just to not respect. One shouldn’t conclude that they are being “disrespected” because we are honest about the issues with that teacher and sangha - issues which still continue. Mukpo Jr took less than a year off after the last round of scandals before starting to teach again.

I don’t know how things would have turned out. I think we can be reasonably confident that Akong Rinpoche taught less publicly as a result of his experiences with Mukpo and the aftermath. There were other vajrayana teachers in the west before and at the same time as Mukpo, it’s not like he was the only game in town. I think it’s an exaggeration to say that the Dharma would have been seriously crippled. And that’s before we weigh the damage done by introducing this highly misleading idea of “crazy wisdom” to western Dharma students, many of whom considered it normative rather than unusual and questionable.
Locked

Return to “Tibetan Buddhism”