There's a reincarnation of Chogyam Trungpa and emanation of Padmasambhava?

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MiphamFan
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Re: There's a reincarnation of Chogyam Trungpa and emanation of Padmasambhava?

Post by MiphamFan »

Padmist wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 2:38 am
MiphamFan wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 2:24 am
Padmist wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 8:58 pm

That the West doesn't deserve Vajrayana or is not ready. Maybe for the sake of the Dharma, we should focus more sravakayana/sutrayana/mahayana/boddhisatvayana or everything else minus Vajrayana. Not everyone can be Lama Lena or Malcolm. I'm already dissapointed Lama Surya Das misused Vajrayana for his carnal urges. Heart broken to hear of the news about the Karmapa.

These days, I'm just praying "God, dear God, please, not B Alan Wallace next."
Don’t get why this implies the “West” doesn’t deserve Vajrayana.

If the OTD affairs are true, actually he did it in Taiwan first at the very least, possibly abetted by other prominent Tully’s.

It’s a problem of the modern world, not just the “West” and it’s not about deserving or undeserving, but about Teachers behaving badly, while being abetted by their friends and students.

Personally yes, these revelations over the last few years also shook my perception of Vajrayana.

“If these high lamas who spent years studying and practising can’t even control these urges in society, and ultimately cause harm to the Dharma, what good is all that study and practice? Even corporate CEOs would have better self control and refrain from abusing their power in this way.” That’s what I thought.

Then I realised too that honestly a lot of these perpetrators never did spend that much time in strict study and practice, especially retreats. Sometimes they are of course abetted and enabled by people who do, who turn a blind eye or rationalise it in terms of samaya.

I have no solution also, I’m just another normal guy.

I am happy with all the Teachers I’ve received tantric teachings from so far, and in particular still really think there’s no one like ChNN. If the traditional Tulku hierarchy took his approach to the modern world rather than Trungpa’s, we would avoid a lot of this mess IMO.
Because that's where it is being propagated. Obviously, I wouldn't say North Korea.
I know the majority of posters here are in the West.

Personally I am Asian, raised in Asia. I don’t like this characterisation of East vs West because 1) the “conservatives” in Asia will latch on to it and say “Westerners” don’t get it 2) it reifies the concept that there is an “East”, a modern day “orientalism” in a way

This stuff doesn’t just happen in the West, it’s happening throughout Asia as well, and it is not okay.

I remember that ChNN said that he suggested back in the pre-cultural revolution days that monasteries should start contributing to the labour economy before the communists came, so they could adapt to the modern world. They accused him of being a communist and ignored his suggestions.

I feel that that same spirit of resisting change and modernity is still very much alive today in the tulku hierarchy.
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Tilopa
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Re: There's a reincarnation of Chogyam Trungpa and emanation of Padmasambhava?

Post by Tilopa »

tobes wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 3:20 am A lot has gone very well too, let's not forget that or diminish it
An excellent point and one worth emphasizing.

There's many Rinpoche's, Lama's, Geshe's and other teachers who keep pure morality, who tirelessly encourage their students to do likewise and who unambiguously present morality as the foundation of the path.

There are also some - possibly many - successful dharma centres free of scandal.

The widespread misconception that Vajrayana Buddhism celebrates and encourages immorality, promiscuity or drunken debauchery is one of the most damaging legacies of the so called 'crazy wisdom' guru's - a shameful disservice to the dharma and a complete betrayal of their students.
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Re: There's a reincarnation of Chogyam Trungpa and emanation of Padmasambhava?

Post by tobes »

Tilopa wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 5:26 am
tobes wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 3:20 am A lot has gone very well too, let's not forget that or diminish it
An excellent point and one worth emphasizing.

There's many Rinpoche's, Lama's, Geshe's and other teachers who keep pure morality, who tirelessly encourage their students to do likewise and who unambiguously present morality as the foundation of the path.

There are also some - possibly many - successful dharma centres free of scandal.

The widespread misconception that Vajrayana Buddhism celebrates and encourages immorality, promiscuity or drunken debauchery is one of the most damaging legacies of the so called 'crazy wisdom' guru's - a shameful disservice to the dharma and a complete betrayal of their students.
+ many genuine practitioners and a few who have accomplishments.
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Re: There's a reincarnation of Chogyam Trungpa and emanation of Padmasambhava?

Post by Lingpupa »

I have doubts about a couple of things Malcolm has said, one factual and one more theoretical. Regarding Sogyal, he said that he:
did the retreats, etc.,
A close analysis of his known history, and his own claims about himself, strongly suggests not only that there was no time in his early life during which he could have undertaken more than light studies of the dharma, and there is no question of there being any years during which he could have undertaken a longer retreat (such as a three-year retreat). As far as I know, he didn't in any case claim to have done such a retreat, but if I'm wrong it would be interesting to know what exactly were the years in which this was supposed to have happened. He had a good English education, the gift of the gab, a pushy mother and a thirst for admiration. Poor lad!

More theoretically, Malcolm also said:
my statement is standard fare in our tradition.
The fact that it is standard fare is clearly true, but it is hardly a justification. It would be rather like saying, "that's my groupthink, so it's true."
All best wishes

"The profundity of your devotion to your lama is not measured by your ability to turn a blind eye."
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Re: There's a reincarnation of Chogyam Trungpa and emanation of Padmasambhava?

Post by Padmist »

Sorry, what is Kali Yoga? Google failed me.
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Re: There's a reincarnation of Chogyam Trungpa and emanation of Padmasambhava?

Post by Malcolm »

Lingpupa wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 11:19 am I have doubts about a couple of things Malcolm has said, one factual and one more theoretical. Regarding Sogyal, he said that he:
did the retreats, etc.,
A close analysis of his known history, and his own claims about himself, strongly suggests not only that there was no time in his early life during which he could have undertaken more than light studies of the dharma, and there is no question of there being any years during which he could have undertaken a longer retreat (such as a three-year retreat). As far as I know, he didn't in any case claim to have done such a retreat, but if I'm wrong it would be interesting to know what exactly were the years in which this was supposed to have happened. He had a good English education, the gift of the gab, a pushy mother and a thirst for admiration. Poor lad!
Sogyal himself made no pretense towards being a ritual lama or of having done large amounts of retreat, though he did do long retreats, for example, a year long Kilaya retreat, etc in the 1990’s. He generally had other lamas give empowerments to,his students. CTR on the other hand definitely did retreats when he was quite young and in fact gave the entire Rinchen Terzod in Tibet while still a teenager. Many lamas in the Gelug and Sakya school never do three year retreats. It’s not a requirement.

More theoretically, Malcolm also said:
my statement is standard fare in our tradition.
The fact that it is standard fare is clearly true,
Do I have to justify Vajrayana teachings in the Vajrayana forum? Seriously? If people want to find out why this is true, they can become Vajrayana Buddhists, otherwise they can piss off.
Last edited by Malcolm on Tue Sep 28, 2021 12:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: There's a reincarnation of Chogyam Trungpa and emanation of Padmasambhava?

Post by frankie »

Lingpupa wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 11:19 am
did the retreats, etc.,

More theoretically, Malcolm also said:
my statement is standard fare in our tradition.
The fact that it is standard fare is clearly true, but it is hardly a justification. It would be rather like saying, "that's my groupthink, so it's true."
Think of it as Buddhist advertising. All religious traditions and denominations, therein, have what they consider are their special and distinct qualities.

It's the ancient art of persuasion based on the 'bigger-better-best' comparison game. Buddhism is certainly not exceptional in that, or immune to such activity. Tibetan Buddhism excels in the art. Looked at reasonably - why would anybody get onboard the vehicle if they didn't proclaim a great game and destination?

Most people will (eventually) let go their doctrinaire participation and just get on with the far more prosaic, really rather simple and commonsensical aspects of ever more fruitful practice.

Nevertheless, It is also encouraged not to get too caught up in beliefs views and opinions...but damn, it's so bloody seductive for the ego. Not only can we get to achieve enlightenment...but it is the very best enlightenment. You gotta love those spiritual ad agencies! :applause:
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Re: There's a reincarnation of Chogyam Trungpa and emanation of Padmasambhava?

Post by Ayu »

Padmist wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 11:36 am Sorry, what is Kali Yoga? Google failed me.
Do you mean Kali Yuga?
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Re: There's a reincarnation of Chogyam Trungpa and emanation of Padmasambhava?

Post by PeterC »

frankie wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 2:26 amI also know that that sort of statement is standard fare in Tibetan Buddhism and Vajrayana.
Actually every Buddhist school asserts its superiority over every other school, for various different reasons in each case.
In old Tibet, there was huge regard for such metaphysical and abstract hyperbole coming from lamas because their received and acculturated Buddhism was pretty much the only intellectual, religious and cultural matrix available to the beholding and pious masses.
No, they asserted these things because that’s what their canonical texts said, if you read the polemic literature that is abundantly clear. And what is your basis for what you say above about the “intellectual, religious and cultural matrix” of “old Tibet”? Are you a cultural anthropologist with a research interest in the area?
In the west, thankfully, we have a larger range of views…
If you’re going to practice in a lineage you should practice according to it’s tenets and traditions. You shouldn’t try to adapt, improve or modify it according to ones own aesthetics. If you want to do that, there are other websites more sympathetic to that position than here.
This is not just a Vajrayana forum, btw. It is viewed by many other Buddhists and indeed non-Buddhists, seen and unseen.
This is a vajrayana forum - see the subforum index above. Please refer to the rules of this site on how we discuss in subforums. Anyone can read it but there are agreed rules for this.
If we really feel the need to say that stuff to people, I think it is better presented in terms of opinion based on received information, rather than as defacto.
Neither actually. We should explain according to the canonical views of the traditions we practice in.
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Re: There's a reincarnation of Chogyam Trungpa and emanation of Padmasambhava?

Post by Malcolm »

frankie wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 12:12 pm
Lingpupa wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 11:19 am
did the retreats, etc.,

More theoretically, Malcolm also said:
my statement is standard fare in our tradition.
The fact that it is standard fare is clearly true, but it is hardly a justification. It would be rather like saying, "that's my groupthink, so it's true."
Think of it as Buddhist advertising.
It’s not merely advertisement. Or do you think that when the Buddha asserted there was no awakening outside his dharma and vinaya, he was just shilling for business?
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Re: There's a reincarnation of Chogyam Trungpa and emanation of Padmasambhava?

Post by frankie »

PeterC wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 12:21 pm
frankie wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 2:26 amI also know that that sort of statement is standard fare in Tibetan Buddhism and Vajrayana.
Actually every Buddhist school asserts its superiority over every other school, for various different reasons in each case.
In old Tibet, there was huge regard for such metaphysical and abstract hyperbole coming from lamas because their received and acculturated Buddhism was pretty much the only intellectual, religious and cultural matrix available to the beholding and pious masses.
No, they asserted these things because that’s what their canonical texts said, if you read the polemic literature that is abundantly clear. And what is your basis for what you say above about the “intellectual, religious and cultural matrix” of “old Tibet”? Are you a cultural anthropologist with a research interest in the area?
In the west, thankfully, we have a larger range of views…
If you’re going to practice in a lineage you should practice according to it’s tenets and traditions. You shouldn’t try to adapt, improve or modify it according to ones own aesthetics. If you want to do that, there are other websites more sympathetic to that position than here.
This is not just a Vajrayana forum, btw. It is viewed by many other Buddhists and indeed non-Buddhists, seen and unseen.
This is a vajrayana forum - see the subforum index above. Please refer to the rules of this site on how we discuss in subforums. Anyone can read it but there are agreed rules for this.
If we really feel the need to say that stuff to people, I think it is better presented in terms of opinion based on received information, rather than as defacto.
Neither actually. We should explain according to the canonical views of the traditions we practice in.
Loving all the 'shoulds' and 'shouldn'ts' there.

Only remember that there are views that differ from your no doubt long term experiential and academic Tibetan Buddhist expertise. Consider curbing the tendency to absolute certainties. And appreciate that others have also been round the block a few times over many years with it. Buddhism is quite radical you see; interptretations, innovations and upayas are fair abounding.

As for the rest, you may find the cooling and reassuring balm of agreement based in another post I put there.
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Re: There's a reincarnation of Chogyam Trungpa and emanation of Padmasambhava?

Post by Lingpupa »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 12:11 pm Do I have to justify Vajrayana teachings in the Vajrayana forum? Seriously? If people want to find out why this is true, they can become Vajrayana Buddhists, otherwise they can piss off.
Yes, you do, for as long thinking people are still allowed into the forum. If questioning is not allowed, the forum should be made closed or secret.

And if your "piss off" was directed at me, then all I can say is "piss off yourself". Otherwise I'll just take it as a rhetorical comment directed at straw men.
All best wishes

"The profundity of your devotion to your lama is not measured by your ability to turn a blind eye."
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Re: There's a reincarnation of Chogyam Trungpa and emanation of Padmasambhava?

Post by PeterC »

frankie wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 12:44 pm
Loving all the 'shoulds' and 'shouldn'ts' there.

Only remember that there are views that differ from your no doubt long term experiential and academic Tibetan Buddhist expertise. Consider curbing the tendency to absolute certainties. And appreciate that others have also been round the block a few times over many years with it. Buddhism is quite radical you see; interptretations, innovations and upayas are fair abounding.

As for the rest, you may find the cooling and reassuring balm of agreement based in another post I put there.
So no specific response to any of my points then.

If you don’t like the rules, take it up with the house
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Re: There's a reincarnation of Chogyam Trungpa and emanation of Padmasambhava?

Post by PeterC »

frankie wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 12:53 pm
Malcolm wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 12:22 pm
frankie wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 12:12 pm

Think of it as Buddhist advertising.
It’s not merely advertisement. Or do you think that when the Buddha asserted there was no awakening outside his dharma and vinaya, he was just shilling for business?
Ouch...pulling the boss on me! No, but if he did say exactly that without further exegesis, discussion, room for movement or dispensation, then... I contend that it's horseshit. With all due love and respect.
So you’re not a follower of the Buddhadharma?
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Re: There's a reincarnation of Chogyam Trungpa and emanation of Padmasambhava?

Post by PeterC »

Ayu wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 12:15 pm
Padmist wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 11:36 am Sorry, what is Kali Yoga? Google failed me.
Do you mean Kali Yuga?
Here at the Dharma Yoga Shala we teach Iyengar Yoga, Hot Yoga, Astanga Yoga and Kali Yoga.
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Re: There's a reincarnation of Chogyam Trungpa and emanation of Padmasambhava?

Post by Malcolm »

frankie wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 12:53 pm
Malcolm wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 12:22 pm
frankie wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 12:12 pm

Think of it as Buddhist advertising.
It’s not merely advertisement. Or do you think that when the Buddha asserted there was no awakening outside his dharma and vinaya, he was just shilling for business?
Ouch...pulling the boss on me! No, but if he did say exactly that without further exegesis, discussion, room for movement or dispensation, then... I contend that it's horseshit. With all due love and respect.
He asserted that outside his dharma and discipline there were no stream entrants, once-returners, never-returners, and arhats, and that the doctrines of other teachers were devoid of such persons, that is, awakened persons.

He stated this in more than one sutra.
Last edited by Malcolm on Tue Sep 28, 2021 1:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: There's a reincarnation of Chogyam Trungpa and emanation of Padmasambhava?

Post by Malcolm »

Lingpupa wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 1:04 pm
Malcolm wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 12:11 pm Do I have to justify Vajrayana teachings in the Vajrayana forum? Seriously? If people want to find out why this is true, they can become Vajrayana Buddhists, otherwise they can piss off.
Yes, you do, for as long thinking people are still allowed into the forum. If questioning is not allowed, the forum should be made closed or secret.
So you are suggesting an overall change to DW forum rules, I take it. The previous posts were not “questioning,” they were assertions that core statements made by the Buddha in the tantras must be false. Hence my response that debate on the point would not be possible, since there is no common basis for a debate on the issue.
And if your "piss off" was directed at me, then all I can say is "piss off yourself". Otherwise I'll just take it as a rhetorical comment directed at straw men.
It was directed at those who are not Vajrayana Buddhists who have opinions about it based on nothing more than their opinions.
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Re: There's a reincarnation of Chogyam Trungpa and emanation of Padmasambhava?

Post by Malcolm »

MiphamFan wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 4:58 am
I remember that ChNN said that he suggested back in the pre-cultural revolution days that monasteries should start contributing to the labour economy before the communists came, so they could adapt to the modern world. They accused him of being a communist and ignored his suggestions.
At one time, ChNN’s politics were very left wing. Just look at the number of radical leftists among his early group of students, it might not be an accident that Merigar was sited in Tuscany, which is a very heavily socialist region of Italy, where Communist parties 🎉 are weekend events, seen regularly in Castel Del Piano, etc.
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Re: There's a reincarnation of Chogyam Trungpa and emanation of Padmasambhava?

Post by dharmafootsteps »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 1:52 pm
MiphamFan wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 4:58 am
I remember that ChNN said that he suggested back in the pre-cultural revolution days that monasteries should start contributing to the labour economy before the communists came, so they could adapt to the modern world. They accused him of being a communist and ignored his suggestions.
At one time, ChNN’s politics were very left wing. Just look at the number of radical leftists among his early group of students, it might not be an accident that Merigar was sited in Tuscany, which is a very heavily socialist region of Italy, where Communist parties 🎉 are weekend events, seen regularly in Castel Del Piano, etc.
That’s interesting I didn’t realise that. I was surprised to find the prevalence of right wing views among community members these days.
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Re: There's a reincarnation of Chogyam Trungpa and emanation of Padmasambhava?

Post by frankie »

PeterC wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 1:33 pm
frankie wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 12:53 pm
Malcolm wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 12:22 pm

It’s not merely advertisement. Or do you think that when the Buddha asserted there was no awakening outside his dharma and vinaya, he was just shilling for business?
Ouch...pulling the boss on me! No, but if he did say exactly that without further exegesis, discussion, room for movement or dispensation, then... I contend that it's horseshit. With all due love and respect.
So you’re not a follower of the Buddhadharma?
I won't take umbrage at the rather superior 'wronging' tone of your 'leading the witness' the question. Based, I suspect, on a convinced and subjective presuppositional view and opinion you have formed of received information. Instead, I will just be honest with you.

I would probably say, one can be a disciple without buying into the whole deal and everything he (or Malcolm) was reported to have said. Others may feel I'm cheating myself, but I feel not. Quite the contrary, actually.

Yes, I am a follower since the mid 80's when I started working in Buddhist publishing.

I am not one who is convinced of everything in sutras, commentaries or from teachers. My preference is to compare and contrast, both with myself, experience, and also that of others. Ask questions, consider other viewpoints, and not get too sucked into stuff that smells cultish, overly prescriptive and doctrinaire, without full recourse and allowance for honest, open query and questioning.

I am understanding that the Buddha's way worked splendidly for him and much of it seems to serve me well too.
along with him, the greeks and other Tibetan, Theravada, and Zen teachers that have saved and blessed my life, I never pass a day without acknowledging my great good fortune in encountering them and trying in my imperfect way to merge my nature with theirs.

A strange thing:

Like many here, I can swing from being a real fundamentalist arsehole back to a self-indulgent Stephen Batchelor show-off. Great to watch the mind and see the ironic and humorous impermanence of all that - resulting in not taking either polarity too seriously before returning back to the approximate middle.
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