There's a reincarnation of Chogyam Trungpa and emanation of Padmasambhava?

[PeterC]

And now we have the wait and see whether the paternity test for Karmapa OTD proves to be positive or not, should there be one. How many Karma Kagyus will refuse to accept the results if they are positive? And if there isn't one, because that case in Canada is settled out of court, how many Karma Kagyus will insist that the settlement does not prove anything? How can a lineage accept a person accused of rape as a lineage head, as long as there is any doubt as to their innocence or guilt?

This story has huge implications for Tibetan Buddhism, no matter which way it turns out.

They already are in a difficult position, because he appears to have sent her a lot of money and engaged in protracted communication with her, which is not what people usually do when falsely accused of rape. So even if the paternity test isn’t a match, they have to eliminate the possibility that he thought it might be. So either there will be some explanations, or people will be asked to take things on trust. The former would be healthier.

[Nemo]

And now we have the wait and see whether the paternity test for Karmapa OTD proves to be positive or not, should there be one. How many Karma Kagyus will refuse to accept the results if they are positive? And if there isn't one, because that case in Canada is settled out of court, how many Karma Kagyus will insist that the settlement does not prove anything? How can a lineage accept a person accused of rape as a lineage head, as long as there is any doubt as to their innocence or guilt?

This story has huge implications for Tibetan Buddhism, no matter which way it turns out.

They already are in a difficult position, because he appears to have sent her a lot of money and engaged in protracted communication with her, which is not what people usually do when falsely accused of rape. So even if the paternity test isn’t a match, they have to eliminate the possibility that he thought it might be. So either there will be some explanations, or people will be asked to take things on trust. The former would be healthier.

These revelations really burned my biscuits. It caused a spiritual crisis and then perhaps an awakening. I think hierarchy is an add on. I don't think it exists in the Buddha realms. They have zero need for subservience. I think part of this is a Tibetan scam so Lamas can make a living selling water beside the river. Most especially the have their cake and eat it too sexy lamas. Good luck to one of them getting a penny out of me in the future.

[Harimoo]

So did Sogyal and a lot of other flawed teachers.

Hi,

This sentence made me ask myself 2 questions :
-How can we assume that there is no flawed teacher in any given lineage ?
-Do flawed lineage always dissapear by their own ?

[Malcolm]

I think hierarchy is an add on.

Well, of course it is. This is Tibetan culture we are dealing with here, not Dharma. At least as far as tantras go, there is no mention of tulku recognitions, etc. This is a 12th century Tibetan innovation.

The point of the tantras is that everyone is initiated to the level of a cakravartin. Everyone is the sovereign of their own mandala.

[Malcolm]

So did Sogyal and a lot of other flawed teachers.

Hi,

This sentence made me ask myself 2 questions :
-How can we assume that there is no flawed teacher in any given lineage ?

We can't. In this kali yuga, all teachers are flawed. The goal is to choose teachers with least amount of flaws.

-Do flawed lineage always dissapear by their own ?

The lineage is ultimately more important than the individual teacher, as long as the rules are followed and empowerments are transmitted properly.

[Harimoo]

(...) semi-Buddhist mystics with wrongs views like Sanggye Kargyal, etc., etc.

Acharya,

who is this guy ?

[Malcolm]

(...) semi-Buddhist mystics with wrongs views like Sanggye Kargyal, etc., etc.

Acharya,

who is this guy ?

https://www.jstor.org/stable/43391257?r ... fa85bf0a8a

[n8pee]

The lineage is ultimately more important than the individual teacher, as long as the rules are followed and empowerments are transmitted properly.

This makes me so grateful for the masters from whom I received empowerment from.

[Padmist]

The question is: what can we learn from all of these examples?

I'm increasingly coming to the view that lo-fi/ minimal institution is the best way forward. Lama Lena style.

That the West doesn't deserve Vajrayana or is not ready. Maybe for the sake of the Dharma, we should focus more sravakayana/sutrayana/mahayana/boddhisatvayana or everything else minus Vajrayana. Not everyone can be Lama Lena or Malcolm. I'm already dissapointed Lama Surya Das misused Vajrayana for his carnal urges. Heart broken to hear of the news about the Karmapa.

These days, I'm just praying "God, dear God, please, not B Alan Wallace next."

[Malcolm]

The question is: what can we learn from all of these examples?

I'm increasingly coming to the view that lo-fi/ minimal institution is the best way forward. Lama Lena style.

That the West doesn't deserve Vajrayana

Of course we do. It’s the only thing that works in the Kali Yuga.

[Constructelf]

The question is: what can we learn from all of these examples?

I'm increasingly coming to the view that lo-fi/ minimal institution is the best way forward. Lama Lena style.

That the West doesn't deserve Vajrayana

Of course we do. It’s the only thing that works in the Kali Yuga.

So you're saying that Theravadins, Zen practitioners, Pure Landers, and other non-Vajrayana Buddhists are deluded and wasting their time following impotent Dharma? Because without qualification or clarification, it does seem like that's what you're saying.

[frankie]

The question is: what can we learn from all of these examples?

I'm increasingly coming to the view that lo-fi/ minimal institution is the best way forward. Lama Lena style.

That the West doesn't deserve Vajrayana

Of course we do. It’s the only thing that works in the Kali Yuga.

If you are only having a conversation with yourself or strictly within the bounds of the traditional rhetorical belief system received by a very small faith group...then that'll work - maybe even be an inspiration.

Otherwise, it is pretty narrow-minded and quite dangerously misleading. Even within the larger Buddhist schema, and leaving aside many other religions, which all vary in the passion and rationality of their salvific claims, as well.

[Malcolm]

That the West doesn't deserve Vajrayana

Of course we do. It’s the only thing that works in the Kali Yuga.

So you're saying that Theravadins, Zen practitioners, Pure Landers, and other non-Vajrayana Buddhists are deluded and wasting their time following impotent Dharma? Because without qualification or clarification, it does seem like that's what you're saying.

No dharma is a waste of time. But some are more relevant than others in this time. We are in the Tibetan Buddhist forum, here, and my statement is standard fare in our tradition.

[Malcolm]

Otherwise, it is pretty narrow-minded and quite dangerously misleading.

Care to debate the point? The problem with that is that we don’t have a common basis to debate this because you won’t accept the authorities I will cite (the tantras). Therefore you won’t accept the reasonings. But you also can’t refute my position through reasoning for a number of reasons, not least of which there is no authentic Mahayana sutra that teaches a method for a beginner to realize buddhahood in one lifetime.

[MiphamFan]

The question is: what can we learn from all of these examples?

I'm increasingly coming to the view that lo-fi/ minimal institution is the best way forward. Lama Lena style.

That the West doesn't deserve Vajrayana or is not ready. Maybe for the sake of the Dharma, we should focus more sravakayana/sutrayana/mahayana/boddhisatvayana or everything else minus Vajrayana. Not everyone can be Lama Lena or Malcolm. I'm already dissapointed Lama Surya Das misused Vajrayana for his carnal urges. Heart broken to hear of the news about the Karmapa.

These days, I'm just praying "God, dear God, please, not B Alan Wallace next."

Don’t get why this implies the “West” doesn’t deserve Vajrayana.

If the OTD affairs are true, actually he did it in Taiwan first at the very least, possibly abetted by other prominent Tully’s.

It’s a problem of the modern world, not just the “West” and it’s not about deserving or undeserving, but about Teachers behaving badly, while being abetted by their friends and students.

Personally yes, these revelations over the last few years also shook my perception of Vajrayana.

“If these high lamas who spent years studying and practising can’t even control these urges in society, and ultimately cause harm to the Dharma, what good is all that study and practice? Even corporate CEOs would have better self control and refrain from abusing their power in this way.” That’s what I thought.

Then I realised too that honestly a lot of these perpetrators never did spend that much time in strict study and practice, especially retreats. Sometimes they are of course abetted and enabled by people who do, who turn a blind eye or rationalise it in terms of samaya.

I have no solution also, I’m just another normal guy.

I am happy with all the Teachers I’ve received tantric teachings from so far, and in particular still really think there’s no one like ChNN. If the traditional Tulku hierarchy took his approach to the modern world rather than Trungpa’s, we would avoid a lot of this mess IMO.

[frankie]

Otherwise, it is pretty narrow-minded and quite dangerously misleading.

Care to debate the point? The problem with that is that we don’t have a common basis to debate this because you won’t accept the authorities I will cite (the tantras). Therefore you won’t accept the reasonings. But you also can’t refute my position through reasoning for a number of reasons, not least of which there is no authentic Mahayana sutra that teaches a method for a beginner to realize buddhahood in one lifetime.

I may or may not, but that wouldn't really be my objection. I know enough about your endeavours to fully respect your sources and damned hard work you've put in to come from where you are coming from.

I also know that that sort of statement is standard fare in Tibetan Buddhism and Vajrayana.

In old Tibet, there was huge regard for such metaphysical and abstract hyperbole coming from lamas because their received and acculturated Buddhism was pretty much the only intellectual, religious and cultural matrix available to the beholding and pious masses.

In the west, thankfully, we have a larger range of views - philosophically, psychologically, scientifically and historically. And can therefore more readily see the dangers in such attitudes drifting towards a kind of exclusive, divisive and superior-conceit mentality, tending towards cultish outlooks. We have seen this already in the short time we’ve been trying to grok this stuff in the west.

Although it seems healthier that, as time passes, more Tibetan teachers, including the Dalai lama, are cottoning onto the western Zeitgeist, looking towards the future viability of Tibetan Buddhism and Vajrayana, and are therefore more discouraging (or shall we say de-emphasiszing) of that kind of public rhetoric. This is not just a Vajrayana forum, btw. It is viewed by many other Buddhists and indeed non-Buddhists, seen and unseen. Therefore, my personal mentality tends to balk at seeing such statements in open forums that are then so easily taken up and misused for years of endless mischief and back and forthing on superiority conceits.

If we really feel the need to say that stuff to people, I think it is better presented in terms of opinion based on received information, rather than as defacto.

Or perhaps not bother at all and just cool our boots for a while and go watch the very instructive Life of Brian…or something.

[Sādhaka]

The individual either ‘deserves’ higher Dharma or doesn’t.

IMO, “the West” these days has gone ‘full-retard’ like Tropic Thunder. Then again, “the East” isn’t too far behind....

If you consider karma from one’s beginning-less lifetimes (or at least from the last time that ‘you’ went to the hell-realms, and then eventually got out with a relatively-clean slate), many things can happen for a individual despite apparent outward ‘collective karma’.

A ‘good’ free-thinking ‘conservative’ person can have many bad things happen to them in this lifetime; whereas an far-left more-or-less hive-mind automaton type person can have all kinds of fortunes in this lifetime.

That’s samsara I suppose....

[Padmist]

The question is: what can we learn from all of these examples?

I'm increasingly coming to the view that lo-fi/ minimal institution is the best way forward. Lama Lena style.

That the West doesn't deserve Vajrayana or is not ready. Maybe for the sake of the Dharma, we should focus more sravakayana/sutrayana/mahayana/boddhisatvayana or everything else minus Vajrayana. Not everyone can be Lama Lena or Malcolm. I'm already dissapointed Lama Surya Das misused Vajrayana for his carnal urges. Heart broken to hear of the news about the Karmapa.

These days, I'm just praying "God, dear God, please, not B Alan Wallace next."

Don’t get why this implies the “West” doesn’t deserve Vajrayana.

If the OTD affairs are true, actually he did it in Taiwan first at the very least, possibly abetted by other prominent Tully’s.

It’s a problem of the modern world, not just the “West” and it’s not about deserving or undeserving, but about Teachers behaving badly, while being abetted by their friends and students.

Personally yes, these revelations over the last few years also shook my perception of Vajrayana.

“If these high lamas who spent years studying and practising can’t even control these urges in society, and ultimately cause harm to the Dharma, what good is all that study and practice? Even corporate CEOs would have better self control and refrain from abusing their power in this way.” That’s what I thought.

Then I realised too that honestly a lot of these perpetrators never did spend that much time in strict study and practice, especially retreats. Sometimes they are of course abetted and enabled by people who do, who turn a blind eye or rationalise it in terms of samaya.

I have no solution also, I’m just another normal guy.

I am happy with all the Teachers I’ve received tantric teachings from so far, and in particular still really think there’s no one like ChNN. If the traditional Tulku hierarchy took his approach to the modern world rather than Trungpa’s, we would avoid a lot of this mess IMO.

Because that's where it is being propagated. Obviously, I wouldn't say North Korea.

[PeterC]

“If these high lamas who spent years studying and practising can’t even control these urges in society, and ultimately cause harm to the Dharma, what good is all that study and practice? Even corporate CEOs would have better self control and refrain from abusing their power in this way.” That’s what I thought.

Senior corporate executives are generally much better at not getting caught, unless they're in the (fairly large) group that actually enjoy the risk of getting caught

Then I realised too that honestly a lot of these perpetrators never did spend that much time in strict study and practice, especially retreats. Sometimes they are of course abetted and enabled by people who do, who turn a blind eye or rationalise it in terms of samaya.

Hence the endless injunctions to examine the qualities of the guru, combined with extensive descriptions of how we should do that. Some would argue that it's not practical, but really, there is so much information accessible about teachers these days that it's quite easy to come up with a shortlist of lamas that are both free from scandal and clearly qualified to teach.

I am happy with all the Teachers I’ve received tantric teachings from so far, and in particular still really think there’s no one like ChNN. If the traditional Tulku hierarchy took his approach to the modern world rather than Trungpa’s, we would avoid a lot of this mess IMO.

All people really need to worry about is (a) picking their teacher and (b) doing their practice. You don't even have to see the teacher very often if you're doing part (b) seriously. I personally don't have any say on how the tulku system operates, how individual sanghas operate, how the Dharma is viewed in the west, how tibetan teachers relate to western students, etc. All we can really change is what we're doing at an individual level.

Open discussion of teachers and sanghas is, contra some of the suggestions earlier in this thread, a useful thing, because it allows people to evaluate prospective gurus more easily. But I'll repeat what I said before - you can easily find very good teachers free from controversy if you do a little work.

[tobes]

A lot has gone very well too, let's not forget that or diminish it.

Again there is a bit of a paradox here: when Vajrayana or Dzogchen or Mahamudra goes well, you don't actually hear much about it.