How do Ngondros of various schools differ from one another?

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Padmist
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How do Ngondros of various schools differ from one another?

Post by Padmist »

And perhaps a stupid follow up question, which one leads to Dzogchen?
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climb-up
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Re: How do Ngondros of various schools differ from one another?

Post by climb-up »

Padmist wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 11:08 pm And perhaps a stupid follow up question, which one leads to Dzogchen?

Any nyingma path will lead to Dzogchen (especially the nyingthigs, “longchen nyingthig” being the most popular, I believe) other paths may too depending on the teacher.

I think most (all?) ngondro include refuge, prostrations, bodhicitta, mandala offering and vajrasattva.
Some will include other practices like guru yoga, chöd, circumambulations, making tsa teas, etc.

The ‘standard’ is to do 100,000 of each, but different teachers teach differently.
Some have a time in retreat, some have smaller numbers, some don’t really care about the numbers but have you start mahamudra or Dzogchen in conjunction with them.

Dzogchen also has its own ngöndro, which is totally different and is generally done after the more standard ‘uncommon ngöndro,’ although some will let you start right off with that.
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zerwe
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Re: How do Ngondros of various schools differ from one another?

Post by zerwe »

There are typically nine standard Ngondro practices in Gelug done within the context of a particular Guru Yoga practice (usually Ganden Lhagyama);

Prostrations (35 Buddhas)
Mandala Offerings with
--Refuge and Bodhicitta
Water Bowls
Guru Yoga (w/ Migstema accumulation)
Vajrasattva
Samayvajra
Tsa-Tsas
Vajradaka


Now with that said, a particular Lama may give a standard Ngondro that is different or do a divination to determine what is appropriate for the particular student.

Shaun :namaste:
Soma999
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Re: How do Ngondros of various schools differ from one another?

Post by Soma999 »

All ngondros are in essence extremly close. In their form they have some differences. The book « preparing for tantra », Rob Preece, offer valuable information in ngondro from a gelug perspective.

This book is also interesting as the author is not « stuck » in a rigid description of the exercice but really understands their deeper meaning. His description of the mandala offering is quiet deep and interesting, and i have never seen someone explain it so well. When you understand better the exercice, it touches you, you can go much deeper.

Ngondro in a way can be also something different from exercices to repeat. Some activity in themselves are a kind of ngondro if approached with the correct mindset.
Padmist
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Re: How do Ngondros of various schools differ from one another?

Post by Padmist »

Any idea why FPMT doesn't teach this? (or do they?)
zerwe
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Re: How do Ngondros of various schools differ from one another?

Post by zerwe »

Padmist wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 10:22 am Any idea why FPMT doesn't teach this? (or do they?)
What do you mean not teach? They do have publications and support materials for most, if not all, Ngondro practices. One of the online learning series integrates some specific preliminary practices (which includes completing 3 Nyung Nae retreats, one month Lam Rim retreat, Vajrasattva, prostrations, etc...)--you could think of as preliminary to actual Ngondro.
Outside of this, Rinpoche gives very specific Ngondro instructions to students individually.

Shaun :namaste:
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Josef
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Re: How do Ngondros of various schools differ from one another?

Post by Josef »

Padmist wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 10:22 am Any idea why FPMT doesn't teach this? (or do they?)
They do.
Gelug ngondro is just structured differently and the additional practices listed above are done in conjunction with the Ganden Lha Gyema as you work with that practice.
I did two GLG retreats in my early years and did prostrations and mandala offerings along side it. This was a great preparation for doing Nyingma ngondros later.
"All phenomena of samsara depend on the mind, so when the essence of mind is purified, samsara is purified. Since the phenomena of nirvana depend on the pristine consciousness of vidyā, because one remains in the immediacy of vidyā, buddhahood arises on its own. All critical points are summarized with those two." - Longchenpa
Padmist
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Re: How do Ngondros of various schools differ from one another?

Post by Padmist »

zerwe wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 2:09 pm
Padmist wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 10:22 am Any idea why FPMT doesn't teach this? (or do they?)
What do you mean not teach? They do have publications and support materials for most, if not all, Ngondro practices. One of the online learning series integrates some specific preliminary practices (which includes completing 3 Nyung Nae retreats, one month Lam Rim retreat, Vajrasattva, prostrations, etc...)--you could think of as preliminary to actual Ngondro.
Outside of this, Rinpoche gives very specific Ngondro instructions to students individually.

Shaun :namaste:
Where is it though? I have Discover and Basic Course that I signed up for. Is it in the Masters?
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Lobsang Chojor
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Re: How do Ngondros of various schools differ from one another?

Post by Lobsang Chojor »

Padmist wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 1:09 am Where is it though? I have Discover and Basic Course that I signed up for. Is it in the Masters?
Included within the Discovering Buddhism course are the Vajrasattva, prostrations and Nyungne practices. Typically these were something you'd ask your teacher about doing because they're not formal studies like BP and MP are focused on; however, the new Exploring Buddhist Philosophy and Practice contains a module on ngondro as part of the practice section.
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zerwe
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Re: How do Ngondros of various schools differ from one another?

Post by zerwe »

Padmist wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 1:09 am
zerwe wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 2:09 pm
Padmist wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 10:22 am Any idea why FPMT doesn't teach this? (or do they?)
What do you mean not teach? They do have publications and support materials for most, if not all, Ngondro practices. One of the online learning series integrates some specific preliminary practices (which includes completing 3 Nyung Nae retreats, one month Lam Rim retreat, Vajrasattva, prostrations, etc...)--you could think of as preliminary to actual Ngondro.
Outside of this, Rinpoche gives very specific Ngondro instructions to students individually.

Shaun :namaste:
Where is it though? I have Discover and Basic Course that I signed up for. Is it in the Masters?
For Discovering Buddhism it is Module 14 "Special Integration Practices." There are also books, booklets, containing instructions and commentaries for nearly all of the practices. (i.e, Preliminary Practice of Offering Water Bowls, Confessions to the 35 Buddhas, etc...) Some are contained within larger texts of prayers and practices, as well. You just have to poke around the Foundation Store a bit. Everything is now in .pdf form. Also, a great many of these have a shared teachings or resources archived in Lama Yeshe Wisdom Archive. You also have the ability to contact the elders or other students with questions through the Discovering Buddhism forum. Additionally, there is a practice manual for Nyung Nae and a larger commentarial text derived from teachings called "Abiding in Retreat." Rinpoche also has additional specifically derived instructions that he disseminates to students individually and with some modifications.

While, not comprehensive of all the offerings related to Ngondro you can look here as well.

https://shop.fpmt.org/Preliminary-Practices_c_298.html

Shaun :namaste:
Last edited by zerwe on Thu Sep 23, 2021 2:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
zerwe
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Re: How do Ngondros of various schools differ from one another?

Post by zerwe »

There is also a book on Vajrasattva specifically. I think it is "Becoming Vajrasattva?"

Shaun :namaste:
jmlee369
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Re: How do Ngondros of various schools differ from one another?

Post by jmlee369 »

For what it's worth, although the set of nine practices are known as Gelug ngondro, and they are often done in varying numbers as preparation for undertaking a great retreat (3 year retreat), the ngondro for Ganden Mahamudra (and HYT in general) is a set of the 'standard' four practices accumulated 100,000 times. Refuge and bodhicitta verse (sang gye cho dang...) accumulation in the context of the extensive refuge practice, migtsema and guru name mantras in the context of Ganden Lhagyema, prostrations with the Bodhisattva's Confession of Downfalls (35 Buddhas), and the short mandala. Vajrasattva is a common addition.
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