Thinking about the 7th Root Downfall

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nightbloom
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Thinking about the 7th Root Downfall

Post by nightbloom »

Recently have had friends asking questions about meditation and ritual in the Vajrayana. Of course, it always excites me when someone expresses interest in it, but I find myself unsure about what I can and cannot say with regard to tantric practice without it being a 7th Root Downfall. Obviously, explicit descriptions of sadhanas, sharing mantras, etc are forbidden. I also do not share images of deities, mandalas, and so on. But is it acceptable to speak, in very general terms, about the logic of tantric practice? For instance, can I explain what the four activities are, or talk in broad terms about creation and completion stage? The role of the yidam, pure perception, etc?

Thoughts appreciated.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Thinking about the 7th Root Downfall

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

My understanding is that one can get very general or very specific, but the important thing is to not convey a misunderstanding, because although you might be speaking truthfully, because the person only understands what they imagine in their own mind, if this is a misunderstanding, this has the same effect as lying.
This is pretty obvious for example, with wrathful deity imagery. Those unfamiliar with Tibetan iconography might only see the outward appearances of monsters with skulls and flaming skulls, and would interpret this to be some kind of devil worship. Of course, in the western world, people rarely ask, “why do you worship a zombie? Why do you wear a necklace showing a Roman torture device?”
Beyond that, of course, there are levels of samaya, and even students of the same teacher would not discuss very specific things with each other.
If one wants to offer a sort of general idea about how Vajrayana visualization works, and why it is regarded as an effective path to realization, there shouldn’t be a problem with that, but don’t indulge people’s exotic curiosity.
One thing that should be noted, Vajrayana practice is like brain surgery in so far as the door being wide open to anyone who really wants to pursue it. But just as you wouldn’t hand over a scalpel to someone who has never set foot in a medical school, there are simply things that are not someone else’s business.
Last edited by PadmaVonSamba on Tue Sep 21, 2021 1:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
EMPTIFUL.
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nightbloom
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Re: Thinking about the 7th Root Downfall

Post by nightbloom »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 1:30 am My understanding is that one can get very general or very specific, but the important thing is to not convey a misunderstanding
Mmm... I like the spirit of this interpretation, and I know there are a few lamas who seem comfortable with it. I doubt it would satisfy a traditionalist, however.
nightbloom
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Re: Thinking about the 7th Root Downfall

Post by nightbloom »

Bump - guidance appreciated. Looking for written sources on this too, if anyone has them.
Natan
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Re: Thinking about the 7th Root Downfall

Post by Natan »

Better to err on the side of caution unless their is a keen interest on that side. Then just be careful about what they will understand.
Malcolm
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Re: Thinking about the 7th Root Downfall

Post by Malcolm »

nightbloom wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 1:08 am But is it acceptable to speak, in very general terms, about the logic of tantric practice? For instance, can I explain what the four activities are, or talk in broad terms about creation and completion stage? The role of the yidam, pure perception, etc?
What you do is you recommend a book by a lineage master that discusses these issues in general terms. If they buy it, they are interested. If they don't, they are not.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Thinking about the 7th Root Downfall

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

People see what they want to see and hear what they want to hear, and tend to reframe or associate whatever new thing they encounter with something they are already familiar with.
When I introduced my mother to the Korean cabbage dish, kimchi, she called it “Korean sauerkraut” because she already knew about sauerkraut.
If you think about English language books on, and translations of Buddhist teachings, they used to use words like “sin” and other christian concepts.
Of course it works both ways. One of the reasons why Christian missionaries never had much success in converting Tibetans was that the word they used for Christ’s resurrection was the Tibetan word for “zombie”. And the Tibetans thought, “ why would anybody follow a religion started by a zombie?”

There are other reasons for not saying too much, which sort of has to do with keeping the ‘integrity’ of the teachings. It’s not so much that it weakens or waters down what’s going on, but especially if there’s samaya with one’s teacher, it’s not that all different than openly discussing private things about one’s relationship with one’s spouse.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
nightbloom
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Re: Thinking about the 7th Root Downfall

Post by nightbloom »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 2:40 pm What you do is you recommend a book by a lineage master that discusses these issues in general terms. If they buy it, they are interested. If they don't, they are not.
Of the available introductory works, is there one that stands out to you? I bypassed most of these.
Malcolm
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Re: Thinking about the 7th Root Downfall

Post by Malcolm »

nightbloom wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 7:50 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 2:40 pm What you do is you recommend a book by a lineage master that discusses these issues in general terms. If they buy it, they are interested. If they don't, they are not.
Of the available introductory works, is there one that stands out to you? I bypassed most of these.
Approaching the Buddhist Path, HHDL.
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