Being on the high bhumis without knowing?

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Fee
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Being on the high bhumis without knowing?

Post by Fee »

Hello! :namaste: Actually, I'm more of a reader, but today a question arose in a conversation that I hope can be answered here.
The question is this: A friend told me that he did a retreat with Alan Wallace, where Ling Rinpoche also gave a talk. There Ling Rinpoche allegedly said that one could be a bodhisattva on the 10th bhumi without knowing it. Alan Wallace is said to have confirmed this later.
Everything I have studied contradicts this. However, he swears that he did not mishear and that other participants were also confused about this statement of Ling Rinpoche.
Seemingly that was not questioned or discussed later, though. Afterwards Alan apparently said the same thing again in other retreats.
I am a bit at a loss there, and that is the reason why I want to ask here - maybe there are even disciples of Alan Wallace who can clear this up?
I only know this one man who told me that. I also have no way of listening to the recordings. I still believe that this is not what was said, but I am unsure.

My question: According to your knowledge, is it possible for a bodhisattva to be on one of the higher bhumis without knowing it himself?
And, if yes: how does it work?
Malcolm
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Re: Being on the high bhumis without knowing?

Post by Malcolm »

Fee wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 12:24 pm My question: According to your knowledge, is it possible for a bodhisattva to be on one of the higher bhumis without knowing it himself?
No, it is not possible.
Fee
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Re: Being on the high bhumis without knowing?

Post by Fee »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 3:22 pm
Fee wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 12:24 pm My question: According to your knowledge, is it possible for a bodhisattva to be on one of the higher bhumis without knowing it himself?
No, it is not possible.
Happy to hear that. Then I can stop thinking about how something like that would be possible. Thank you. :smile:
Inedible
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Re: Being on the high bhumis without knowing?

Post by Inedible »

It sounds like a variation on those teachers who say you are already Enlightened and you just don't know it and using effort only gets in the way. Feel good about yourself and give up. I prefer the teaching that even though the sesame oil is already present in sesame seeds it takes a lot of effort to produce and refine it.
Archie2009
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Re: Being on the high bhumis without knowing?

Post by Archie2009 »

Inedible wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 4:52 pm It sounds like a variation on those teachers who say you are already Enlightened and you just don't know it and using effort only gets in the way. Feel good about yourself and give up. I prefer the teaching that even though the sesame oil is already present in sesame seeds it takes a lot of effort to produce and refine it.
Listening to B. Alan Wallace's Dzogchen teachings on Wisdom Experience, I got the impression of giving up as well, though in a different manner. At one point he more or less resigned the group he was talking to to the idea of enlightenment over multiple lifetimes, though not at the expense of practicing especially śamatha dilligently. Like, you are on the path, so what does it matter if you take another 5 or so lifetimes (at minimum). It seemed contrary to the Dzogchen idea of being liberated either in this life or at the point of death/in the bardos. Not very inspriring.
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tobes
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Re: Being on the high bhumis without knowing?

Post by tobes »

Archie2009 wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 5:32 pm
Inedible wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 4:52 pm It sounds like a variation on those teachers who say you are already Enlightened and you just don't know it and using effort only gets in the way. Feel good about yourself and give up. I prefer the teaching that even though the sesame oil is already present in sesame seeds it takes a lot of effort to produce and refine it.
Listening to B. Alan Wallace's Dzogchen teachings on Wisdom Experience, I got the impression of giving up as well, though in a different manner. At one point he more or less resigned the group he was talking to to the idea of enlightenment over multiple lifetimes, though not at the expense of practicing especially śamatha dilligently. Like, you are on the path, so what does it matter if you take another 5 or so lifetimes (at minimum). It seemed contrary to the Dzogchen idea of being liberated either in this life or at the point of death/in the bardos. Not very inspriring.
But probably very pragmatic/realistic. Not many aspirants actually attain liberation on one lifetime.
fckw
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Re: Being on the high bhumis without knowing?

Post by fckw »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 3:22 pm
Fee wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 12:24 pm My question: According to your knowledge, is it possible for a bodhisattva to be on one of the higher bhumis without knowing it himself?
No, it is not possible.
It has to be possible logically though: If there exist Pratyeka-Buddhas, who are "self-enlightened" (i.e. got enlightened outside of a formal student-teacher relationship) because they live in a time when there is no buddha-dharma around, then they cannot have the knowledge to intellectually know about bhumis or discern on what bhumi they are, how many bhumis there exist, or what it takes to get from one bhumi to another. Or did I misunderstand something here?
fckw
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Re: Being on the high bhumis without knowing?

Post by fckw »

tobes wrote: Sun Aug 15, 2021 3:45 am
Archie2009 wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 5:32 pm
Inedible wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 4:52 pm It sounds like a variation on those teachers who say you are already Enlightened and you just don't know it and using effort only gets in the way. Feel good about yourself and give up. I prefer the teaching that even though the sesame oil is already present in sesame seeds it takes a lot of effort to produce and refine it.
Listening to B. Alan Wallace's Dzogchen teachings on Wisdom Experience, I got the impression of giving up as well, though in a different manner. At one point he more or less resigned the group he was talking to to the idea of enlightenment over multiple lifetimes, though not at the expense of practicing especially śamatha dilligently. Like, you are on the path, so what does it matter if you take another 5 or so lifetimes (at minimum). It seemed contrary to the Dzogchen idea of being liberated either in this life or at the point of death/in the bardos. Not very inspriring.
But probably very pragmatic/realistic. Not many aspirants actually attain liberation on one lifetime.
I'd love to see the statistics.
GrapeLover
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Re: Being on the high bhumis without knowing?

Post by GrapeLover »

fckw wrote: Wed Aug 18, 2021 9:17 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 3:22 pm
Fee wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 12:24 pm My question: According to your knowledge, is it possible for a bodhisattva to be on one of the higher bhumis without knowing it himself?
No, it is not possible.
It has to be possible logically though: If there exist Pratyeka-Buddhas, who are "self-enlightened" (i.e. got enlightened outside of a formal student-teacher relationship) because they live in a time when there is no buddha-dharma around, then they cannot have the knowledge to intellectually know about bhumis or discern on what bhumi they are, how many bhumis there exist, or what it takes to get from one bhumi to another. Or did I misunderstand something here?
Pratyekabuddhas don’t realise samyaksambodhi and don’t traverse the bodhisattva bhumis

It is the śrāvaka bhumis that are relevant for them https://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Eight_bhumis
Malcolm
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Re: Being on the high bhumis without knowing?

Post by Malcolm »

fckw wrote: Wed Aug 18, 2021 9:17 pm Or did I misunderstand something here?
Pratyekabuddhas are not on the bodhisattva bhumis at all.
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tobes
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Re: Being on the high bhumis without knowing?

Post by tobes »

fckw wrote: Wed Aug 18, 2021 9:18 pm
tobes wrote: Sun Aug 15, 2021 3:45 am
Archie2009 wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 5:32 pm Listening to B. Alan Wallace's Dzogchen teachings on Wisdom Experience, I got the impression of giving up as well, though in a different manner. At one point he more or less resigned the group he was talking to to the idea of enlightenment over multiple lifetimes, though not at the expense of practicing especially śamatha dilligently. Like, you are on the path, so what does it matter if you take another 5 or so lifetimes (at minimum). It seemed contrary to the Dzogchen idea of being liberated either in this life or at the point of death/in the bardos. Not very inspriring.
But probably very pragmatic/realistic. Not many aspirants actually attain liberation on one lifetime.
I'd love to see the statistics.
They would be very sobering figures. I've heard a few of Wallace's teachings, and I like this about his approach. It's usually qualified by 'it is possible, but not for most of us.' One might call this 'not very inspiring,' but it is also *irrefutably* true. I think being grounded on where one is on the path (if indeed, one has even managed to accomplish entering one) and where one can realistically hope to go in one's lifetime (given one's punya and level of effort) is super important.
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Matt J
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Re: Being on the high bhumis without knowing?

Post by Matt J »

Wallace has had some ideas that aren't always echoed by other teachers. For example, 24 hour samadhi for the first jhana, and mastering the jhanas as a prerequisite for Dzogchen.
tobes wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 2:14 am They would be very sobering figures. I've heard a few of Wallace's teachings, and I like this about his approach. It's usually qualified by 'it is possible, but not for most of us.' One might call this 'not very inspiring,' but it is also *irrefutably* true. I think being grounded on where one is on the path (if indeed, one has even managed to accomplish entering one) and where one can realistically hope to go in one's lifetime (given one's punya and level of effort) is super important.
"The world is made of stories, not atoms."
--- Muriel Rukeyser
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tobes
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Re: Being on the high bhumis without knowing?

Post by tobes »

Matt J wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 2:27 am Wallace has had some ideas that aren't always echoed by other teachers. For example, 24 hour samadhi for the first jhana, and mastering the jhanas as a prerequisite for Dzogchen.
tobes wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 2:14 am They would be very sobering figures. I've heard a few of Wallace's teachings, and I like this about his approach. It's usually qualified by 'it is possible, but not for most of us.' One might call this 'not very inspiring,' but it is also *irrefutably* true. I think being grounded on where one is on the path (if indeed, one has even managed to accomplish entering one) and where one can realistically hope to go in one's lifetime (given one's punya and level of effort) is super important.
Sure, but I'm only defending the one proposition here.....
fckw
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Re: Being on the high bhumis without knowing?

Post by fckw »

GrapeLover wrote: Wed Aug 18, 2021 9:43 pm Pratyekabuddhas don’t realise samyaksambodhi and don’t traverse the bodhisattva bhumis

It is the śrāvaka bhumis that are relevant for them https://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Eight_bhumis
Ah, thanks for the pointer! Just learned something new...
Natan
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Re: Being on the high bhumis without knowing?

Post by Natan »

A Bodhisattva can only learn Prajnaparamita from a Buddha or a Bodhisattva. The paramita part means perfect and only someone with a lineage can learn what that means. It also means bhumis, paths and stages would be taught. High bhumi Bodhisattvas see sambhogakaya buddhas and can emanate. So how could they be a high bhumi Bodhisattvas and not know?
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Re: Being on the high bhumis without knowing?

Post by Natan »

Matt J wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 2:27 am Wallace has had some ideas that aren't always echoed by other teachers. For example, 24 hour samadhi for the first jhana, and mastering the jhanas as a prerequisite for Dzogchen.
tobes wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 2:14 am They would be very sobering figures. I've heard a few of Wallace's teachings, and I like this about his approach. It's usually qualified by 'it is possible, but not for most of us.' One might call this 'not very inspiring,' but it is also *irrefutably* true. I think being grounded on where one is on the path (if indeed, one has even managed to accomplish entering one) and where one can realistically hope to go in one's lifetime (given one's punya and level of effort) is super important.
The idea shamatha is required before Dzogchen is not taught. The principle of Dzogchen and Mahamudra is vipashyana also comes first. The whole reason for the existence of these paths, why they are secret, why they are fastest, is because of direct perception of dharmakaya from the beginning. Then the path is about shaking off doubts and habits. The way and when and how to know if one is liberated is all dependent on a having guru with a lineage, a practice lineage that continues to produce liberated yogis and preserves the insights and instructions. Maybe this is some skillful means for the kinds of people this guy meets, but really it's not necessary if one has a complete teaching from a practice lineage.
Last edited by Natan on Thu Aug 19, 2021 11:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Matt J
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Re: Being on the high bhumis without knowing?

Post by Matt J »

He appears to have idiosyncratically high standards. Many teachers think it is possible even for lay practitioners to enter into the initial stages of realization in this lifetime.
tobes wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 3:54 am Sure, but I'm only defending the one proposition here.....
"The world is made of stories, not atoms."
--- Muriel Rukeyser
Malcolm
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Re: Being on the high bhumis without knowing?

Post by Malcolm »

tobes wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 2:14 am
They would be very sobering figures. I've heard a few of Wallace's teachings, and I like this about his approach. It's usually qualified by 'it is possible, but not for most of us.' One might call this 'not very inspiring,' but it is also *irrefutably* true.
Since we are discussing Dzogchen teachings here, what Wallace says is just not the case.

I think being grounded on where one is on the path (if indeed, one has even managed to accomplish entering one) and where one can realistically hope to go in one's lifetime (given one's punya and level of effort) is super important.
The promise of Vajrayāna teachings in general is liberation in this life, at the time of death, in the bardo, or within seven to sixteen births.

The blanket promise of Dzogchen teachings is liberation in this life, at the time of death, in the bardo, or in a natural nirmanakāya buddhafield, no exceptions, even if one cannot find time to practice much.
Malcolm
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Re: Being on the high bhumis without knowing?

Post by Malcolm »

Matt J wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 2:27 am Wallace has had some ideas that aren't always echoed by other teachers. For example, 24 hour samadhi for the first jhana, and mastering the jhanas as a prerequisite for Dzogchen.
Wallace has never properly studied Longchenpa. Had he done so, he would not be promulgating these ideas. But it does keep his retreats full.
Archie2009
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Re: Being on the high bhumis without knowing?

Post by Archie2009 »

There seemed to be a lot of Gelugpas in the retreats that formed the basis for Wallace's Wisdom Experience restricted Dzogchen courses. When discussing Madhyamaka Wallace routinely turns to Tsongkhapa's interpretation (compatibillity issues?). His Gelug background continuously shows, for example in repeatedly stressing achieving śamatha as a basis for recognising rigpa being acceptable to a particular Gelug lama he knows. "That ought to do it." As if I would value the judgement of a Gelug lama most of all in such matters. To me it felt like Dzogchen viewed through a Gelug lens sometimes. Please correct me if I'm wrong or being unfair.
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