New guy to Tantra

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James84
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New guy to Tantra

Post by James84 »

I am pretty new to the world of Tantra/Vajrayana Buddhism. I have most of my foundation in common Mahayana, although I have been trying to study more about Tibetan Buddhism. I know it is esoteric, so I am not sure if my questions can be answered on a forum, but I decided I will try and see what responses I get since many of you seem knowledgeable on here. The book that drew me towards Tibetan Buddhism was "Indestructible Truth" and I know the author has a book "Secret of the Vajra World" which may be able to answer some of my other questions. If you have some reading suggestions or can answer them here it would be appreciated! My questions are:

Does a tantric practitioner usually have only one practice they do? Or do some practice multiple different practices during the day? (For example is it common for someone to practice mahamudra in the morning, then do deity yoga at night? Or could they do deity yoga with one deity in the morning, another at night? etc)

Also it seems like practices such as Vajrasattva, Chenrezig, or Tara are very common at many centers. These seem to be more widely practiced than higher tantras, but is there any major differences between each of these introductory practices? I know Chenrezig embodies compassion, Tara is a deity for protection but are the practices linked with this? For example if someone is not very compassionate will a teacher suggest Chenrezig practice?

Does Tantric practice differ in any of the lineages of Tibetan Buddhism? I know the practice itself may be different, but is the way the practice done different from one school to the next?

What is yoga in terms of tantric practice? As a westerner, when I think of yoga I think of different poses or stretches, is this what is meant by yogas? For example in a sadhana will a practitioner be holding different poses?

And my last question is how do higher practices differ? I know there is so much excitement about Anuttarayoga tantras, although im curious in general how they differ? Im assuming the teachings in the tantras themselves are different, but for example does the practice of Cakrasamvara and Kalachakra differ just by the deity/mantra/mandala that is used during the practice? Or are there significant differences between the practices and if so what would these look like?

Probably asking a lot so maybe some others will be able to help! Thank you all
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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: New guy to Tantra

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

James84 wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 3:56 pm

Does a tantric practitioner usually have only one practice they do? Or do some practice multiple different practices during the day? (For example is it common for someone to practice mahamudra in the morning, then do deity yoga at night? Or could they do deity yoga with one deity in the morning, another at night? etc)
There is not a simple answer to this. Generally the lineage you are part of it, the teacher(s) you follow, and your own inclinations and life circumstances determine this. There are also lots of practices for specific circumstances.
Also it seems like practices such as Vajrasattva, Chenrezig, or Tara are very common at many centers. These seem to be more widely practiced than higher tantras, but is there any major differences between each of these introductory practices? I know Chenrezig embodies compassion, Tara is a deity for protection but are the practices linked with this? For example if someone is not very compassionate will a teacher suggest Chenrezig practice?
Again no simple answer to this, as there a bunch of different scenarios. Additionally, while Chenrezig, Tara, and Vajrasattva are often accessible practices comparatively, they are not always "lower" practices.
Does Tantric practice differ in any of the lineages of Tibetan Buddhism? I know the practice itself may be different, but is the way the practice done different from one school to the next?
Yes and yes, there are often more methods than you can count, even within specific lineages.
What is yoga in terms of tantric practice? As a westerner, when I think of yoga I think of different poses or stretches, is this what is meant by yogas? For example in a sadhana will a practitioner be holding different poses?
Yoga implies to link or yoke oneself to something, practice, a deity, etc. Yoga only means "poses" to Westerners because of the popularization of Yoga as exercise. Physical poses and exercises exist in Vajrayana, but generally "Yoga" here has a much broader meaning.
And my last question is how do higher practices differ? I know there is so much excitement about Anuttarayoga tantras, although im curious in general how they differ? Im assuming the teachings in the tantras themselves are different, but for example does the practice of Cakrasamvara and Kalachakra differ just by the deity/mantra/mandala that is used during the practice? Or are there significant differences between the practices and if so what would these look like?
Agaim, huge question. The general answer is that these practices involve generating oneself as the Yidam, and that lower practices tend to emphasize externality..but that is really an over simplification.
Probably asking a lot so maybe some others will be able to help! Thank you all
Yeah, there is no way to really get answers to this stuff other than to experience it. You might want to try reading some introductory books on Tantra though, I think Lama Yeshe wrote one, and there are lots of other out there.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

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Natan
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Re: New guy to Tantra

Post by Natan »

James84 wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 3:56 pm I am pretty new to the world of Tantra/Vajrayana Buddhism. I have most of my foundation in common Mahayana, although I have been trying to study more about Tibetan Buddhism. I know it is esoteric, so I am not sure if my questions can be answered on a forum, but I decided I will try and see what responses I get since many of you seem knowledgeable on here. The book that drew me towards Tibetan Buddhism was "Indestructible Truth" and I know the author has a book "Secret of the Vajra World" which may be able to answer some of my other questions. If you have some reading suggestions or can answer them here it would be appreciated! My questions are:

Does a tantric practitioner usually have only one practice they do? Or do some practice multiple different practices during the day? (For example is it common for someone to practice mahamudra in the morning, then do deity yoga at night? Or could they do deity yoga with one deity in the morning, another at night? etc)
It's normal to have several practices.
Also it seems like practices such as Vajrasattva, Chenrezig, or Tara are very common at many centers. These seem to be more widely practiced than higher tantras, but is there any major differences between each of these introductory practices? I know Chenrezig embodies compassion, Tara is a deity for protection but are the practices linked with this? For example if someone is not very compassionate will a teacher suggest Chenrezig practice?
The high level stuff is usually taught for a retreat. You're correct about Chenrezig and Tara.
Does Tantric practice differ in any of the lineages of Tibetan Buddhism? I know the practice itself may be different, but is the way the practice done different from one school to the next?
Can be very different in practice.
What is yoga in terms of tantric practice? As a westerner, when I think of yoga I think of different poses or stretches, is this what is meant by yogas? For example in a sadhana will a practitioner be holding different poses?
Yoga is mental, verbal and physical. There are poses.
And my last question is how do higher practices differ? I know there is so much excitement about Anuttarayoga tantras, although im curious in general how they differ? Im assuming the teachings in the tantras themselves are different, but for example does the practice of Cakrasamvara and Kalachakra differ just by the deity/mantra/mandala that is used during the practice? Or are there significant differences between the practices and if so what would these look like?
They are significantly different at both deity yoga and completion, but especially at completion. Part of your journey will be to discover how. It cannot be explained online.
Probably asking a lot so maybe some others will be able to help! Thank you all
Malcolm
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Re: New guy to Tantra

Post by Malcolm »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 6:43 pm
Yoga implies to link or yoke oneself to something, practice, a deity, etc. Yoga only means "poses" to Westerners because of the popularization of Yoga as exercise. Physical poses and exercises exist in Vajrayana, but generally "Yoga" here has a much broader meaning.
That depends on how it is etymologized. For example, Srivasta Ramaswami, my guru of yoga, explains this word is often mistranslated by yoga scholars. We commonly hear that yoga means 'to yoke', from the Sanskrit word 'yuj'. But it is actually a derivative of the word 'yuja' which means 'peace of mind', or 'samadhi', which is the 8th limb of yoga.

Likewise, Tibetan, the early translators translated the term yoga as rnal 'byor. Rnal is from "rnal ma," which means perfect, true, and actual, and here, fundamental.

"byor here means to settle. So in this context, yoga means "to settle into one's authentic fundamental condition."
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Re: New guy to Tantra

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Interesting info, thanks Malcolm.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

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James84
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Re: New guy to Tantra

Post by James84 »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 6:43 pm
James84 wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 3:56 pm

Does a tantric practitioner usually have only one practice they do? Or do some practice multiple different practices during the day? (For example is it common for someone to practice mahamudra in the morning, then do deity yoga at night? Or could they do deity yoga with one deity in the morning, another at night? etc)
There is not a simple answer to this. Generally the lineage you are part of it, the teacher(s) you follow, and your own inclinations and life circumstances determine this. There are also lots of practices for specific circumstances.
Also it seems like practices such as Vajrasattva, Chenrezig, or Tara are very common at many centers. These seem to be more widely practiced than higher tantras, but is there any major differences between each of these introductory practices? I know Chenrezig embodies compassion, Tara is a deity for protection but are the practices linked with this? For example if someone is not very compassionate will a teacher suggest Chenrezig practice?
Again no simple answer to this, as there a bunch of different scenarios. Additionally, while Chenrezig, Tara, and Vajrasattva are often accessible practices comparatively, they are not always "lower" practices.
Does Tantric practice differ in any of the lineages of Tibetan Buddhism? I know the practice itself may be different, but is the way the practice done different from one school to the next?
Yes and yes, there are often more methods than you can count, even within specific lineages.
What is yoga in terms of tantric practice? As a westerner, when I think of yoga I think of different poses or stretches, is this what is meant by yogas? For example in a sadhana will a practitioner be holding different poses?
Yoga implies to link or yoke oneself to something, practice, a deity, etc. Yoga only means "poses" to Westerners because of the popularization of Yoga as exercise. Physical poses and exercises exist in Vajrayana, but generally "Yoga" here has a much broader meaning.
And my last question is how do higher practices differ? I know there is so much excitement about Anuttarayoga tantras, although im curious in general how they differ? Im assuming the teachings in the tantras themselves are different, but for example does the practice of Cakrasamvara and Kalachakra differ just by the deity/mantra/mandala that is used during the practice? Or are there significant differences between the practices and if so what would these look like?
Agaim, huge question. The general answer is that these practices involve generating oneself as the Yidam, and that lower practices tend to emphasize externality..but that is really an over simplification.
Probably asking a lot so maybe some others will be able to help! Thank you all
Yeah, there is no way to really get answers to this stuff other than to experience it. You might want to try reading some introductory books on Tantra though, I think Lama Yeshe wrote one, and there are lots of other out there.
Thank you for this answer that answered the basics of my questions. A few more tho in response,

You said that the instructions of a guru, life circumstances, etc all play into what practices one may do throughout the day. Would you be able to give me a basic idea of how a lay practitioner may practice throughout the day? For example in some Zen lineages I have studied with it was suggested that we do morning and evening meditation (usually breath counting). In the Chan tradition we were suggested the same thing but included time for chanting the Buddhas name. Is there any common schedules for daily practice amongst lay practitioners?

For the response about the annuttarayoga tantra practice you said that they involve generating oneself as the yidam. Do other tantric practices not do this? Or is it to a different degree? You also mentioned that lower practices tend to emphasize externality, would you be able to clarify what this means since I have not heard this before.

The comment by crazywisdom also mentioned that anuttarayoga practices are different at both deity yoga and completion and its part of our journey to discover this. Is it possible to summarize briefly what some differences may be? Is it as simple as different mudras/mantras/visualizations, or is it more complex in a way I am not thinking?

Thank you all!
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Tlalok
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Re: New guy to Tantra

Post by Tlalok »

James84 wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 1:26 am Thank you for this answer that answered the basics of my questions. A few more tho in response,

You said that the instructions of a guru, life circumstances, etc all play into what practices one may do throughout the day. Would you be able to give me a basic idea of how a lay practitioner may practice throughout the day? For example in some Zen lineages I have studied with it was suggested that we do morning and evening meditation (usually breath counting). In the Chan tradition we were suggested the same thing but included time for chanting the Buddhas name. Is there any common schedules for daily practice amongst lay practitioners?

For the response about the annuttarayoga tantra practice you said that they involve generating oneself as the yidam. Do other tantric practices not do this? Or is it to a different degree? You also mentioned that lower practices tend to emphasize externality, would you be able to clarify what this means since I have not heard this before.

The comment by crazywisdom also mentioned that anuttarayoga practices are different at both deity yoga and completion and its part of our journey to discover this. Is it possible to summarize briefly what some differences may be? Is it as simple as different mudras/mantras/visualizations, or is it more complex in a way I am not thinking?

Thank you all!
Here's a schedule for a three-year retreatant from kagyu.com (http://www.kagyu.com/monastery/124-thre ... ar-retreat)

4:00 Yoga of Awakening, Ngöndro (Preliminary practices)
5:35 Chutor (Water Offering)
6:00-8:00 Group Chanting: Tara and other prayers
8:00-8:20 Breakfast
8:20-10:30 Main Practice Session 1 followed by aspiration prayers
10:50-11:45 Tibetan Yoga with group
12:00-2:00pm Lunch and free time, or work, depending on schedule
2:00-4:30 Main Practice Session 2 followed by aspiration prayers
5:00-7:00 Group Chanting: Mahakala
7:00-7:15 Dinner
7:15-8:30 Dorje Purba, Practice Session 3
8:30-9:50 Concluding Rituals, Chöd, aspiration prayers

Obviously, outside of retreat, you're not keeping this schedule, but you can see what times of day are used for particular practices. Tara and Ngondro are often morning practices, Kilaya, Chod, and Protector offerings are often at night. However, I'm sure that there are cycles of practice that throw this on its head.
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Re: New guy to Tantra

Post by Natan »

James84 wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 1:26 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 6:43 pm
James84 wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 3:56 pm

Does a tantric practitioner usually have only one practice they do? Or do some practice multiple different practices during the day? (For example is it common for someone to practice mahamudra in the morning, then do deity yoga at night? Or could they do deity yoga with one deity in the morning, another at night? etc)
There is not a simple answer to this. Generally the lineage you are part of it, the teacher(s) you follow, and your own inclinations and life circumstances determine this. There are also lots of practices for specific circumstances.
Also it seems like practices such as Vajrasattva, Chenrezig, or Tara are very common at many centers. These seem to be more widely practiced than higher tantras, but is there any major differences between each of these introductory practices? I know Chenrezig embodies compassion, Tara is a deity for protection but are the practices linked with this? For example if someone is not very compassionate will a teacher suggest Chenrezig practice?
Again no simple answer to this, as there a bunch of different scenarios. Additionally, while Chenrezig, Tara, and Vajrasattva are often accessible practices comparatively, they are not always "lower" practices.
Does Tantric practice differ in any of the lineages of Tibetan Buddhism? I know the practice itself may be different, but is the way the practice done different from one school to the next?
Yes and yes, there are often more methods than you can count, even within specific lineages.
What is yoga in terms of tantric practice? As a westerner, when I think of yoga I think of different poses or stretches, is this what is meant by yogas? For example in a sadhana will a practitioner be holding different poses?
Yoga implies to link or yoke oneself to something, practice, a deity, etc. Yoga only means "poses" to Westerners because of the popularization of Yoga as exercise. Physical poses and exercises exist in Vajrayana, but generally "Yoga" here has a much broader meaning.
And my last question is how do higher practices differ? I know there is so much excitement about Anuttarayoga tantras, although im curious in general how they differ? Im assuming the teachings in the tantras themselves are different, but for example does the practice of Cakrasamvara and Kalachakra differ just by the deity/mantra/mandala that is used during the practice? Or are there significant differences between the practices and if so what would these look like?
Agaim, huge question. The general answer is that these practices involve generating oneself as the Yidam, and that lower practices tend to emphasize externality..but that is really an over simplification.
Probably asking a lot so maybe some others will be able to help! Thank you all
Yeah, there is no way to really get answers to this stuff other than to experience it. You might want to try reading some introductory books on Tantra though, I think Lama Yeshe wrote one, and there are lots of other out there.
Thank you for this answer that answered the basics of my questions. A few more tho in response,

You said that the instructions of a guru, life circumstances, etc all play into what practices one may do throughout the day. Would you be able to give me a basic idea of how a lay practitioner may practice throughout the day? For example in some Zen lineages I have studied with it was suggested that we do morning and evening meditation (usually breath counting). In the Chan tradition we were suggested the same thing but included time for chanting the Buddhas name. Is there any common schedules for daily practice amongst lay practitioners?

For the response about the annuttarayoga tantra practice you said that they involve generating oneself as the yidam. Do other tantric practices not do this? Or is it to a different degree? You also mentioned that lower practices tend to emphasize externality, would you be able to clarify what this means since I have not heard this before.

The comment by crazywisdom also mentioned that anuttarayoga practices are different at both deity yoga and completion and its part of our journey to discover this. Is it possible to summarize briefly what some differences may be? Is it as simple as different mudras/mantras/visualizations, or is it more complex in a way I am not thinking?

Thank you all!
There are big differences and it's not something you can imagine. It's all mind-blowing and you will enjoy the journey of discovery.
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Re: New guy to Tantra

Post by Natan »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 7:29 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 6:43 pm
Yoga implies to link or yoke oneself to something, practice, a deity, etc. Yoga only means "poses" to Westerners because of the popularization of Yoga as exercise. Physical poses and exercises exist in Vajrayana, but generally "Yoga" here has a much broader meaning.
That depends on how it is etymologized. For example, Srivasta Ramaswami, my guru of yoga, explains this word is often mistranslated by yoga scholars. We commonly hear that yoga means 'to yoke', from the Sanskrit word 'yuj'. But it is actually a derivative of the word 'yuja' which means 'peace of mind', or 'samadhi', which is the 8th limb of yoga.

Likewise, Tibetan, the early translators translated the term yoga as rnal 'byor. Rnal is from "rnal ma," which means perfect, true, and actual, and here, fundamental.

"byor here means to settle. So in this context, yoga means "to settle into one's authentic fundamental condition."
All these yoga gurus have to be the guy who shows everyone else got it wrong and push their pet system... The word they all know is Yōg... And It's all any of them say going back to Bhagavad Gita and Upanishads. Find me the word Yuja in Upanishads. It's just like OM. Know one knows where the symbol came from. All they know is it's old. Indian history is a dense fog. They were shitty record keepers. It's mostly guesswork. And the thing about Sanskrit is there are huge lists of cognate terms. Try looking up words in a Sanskrit dictionary. So many words mean multiple things and many words have the same meaning. The idea of one original root is BS, just like we cannot know who's got the purest vajra lineage. I have to concede that. Note on that however, there is a way to know how Indians practiced tantra. Besides what stuff means is not very important, everyone know yoga is for peace of mind, bija and Asana don't mean anything. They are functional.
Last edited by Natan on Thu Jul 29, 2021 1:35 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Malcolm
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Re: New guy to Tantra

Post by Malcolm »

Crazywisdom wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 1:24 pm
Malcolm wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 7:29 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 6:43 pm
Yoga implies to link or yoke oneself to something, practice, a deity, etc. Yoga only means "poses" to Westerners because of the popularization of Yoga as exercise. Physical poses and exercises exist in Vajrayana, but generally "Yoga" here has a much broader meaning.
That depends on how it is etymologized. For example, Srivasta Ramaswami, my guru of yoga, explains this word is often mistranslated by yoga scholars. We commonly hear that yoga means 'to yoke', from the Sanskrit word 'yuj'. But it is actually a derivative of the word 'yuja' which means 'peace of mind', or 'samadhi', which is the 8th limb of yoga.

Likewise, Tibetan, the early translators translated the term yoga as rnal 'byor. Rnal is from "rnal ma," which means perfect, true, and actual, and here, fundamental.

"byor here means to settle. So in this context, yoga means "to settle into one's authentic fundamental condition."
All these yoga gurus have to be the guy who shows everyone else got it wrong and push their pet system... The word they all know is Yōg... And It's all any of them say going back to Bhagavad Gita and Upanishads. Find me the word Yuja in Upanishads. It's just like OM. Know one knows where the symbol came from. All they know is it's old. Indian history is a dense fog. They were shitty record keepers. It's mostly guesswork. And the thing about Sanskrit is there are huge lists of cognate terms. Try looking up words in a Sanskrit dictionary. So many words mean multiple things and many words have the same meaning. The idea of one original root is BS, just like we cannot know who's got the purest vajra lineage. I have to concede that. Note on that however, there is a way to know how Indians practiced tantra. Besides what stuff means is not very important, everyone know yoga is for peace of mind, bija and Asana don't mean anything. They are functional.
You’ve completely misunderstood the point of my post, but perhaps it is because I did not provide enough context.

Rnal’byor in no way means joining two things together. This is consistent with Ramasvami’s contention, where he is discussing Patanjali’ Yoga Sutras.

In other places he agrees that the word yoga can mean jointing two things together, for example Bhakti yoga, etc. but the term “yoga,” as it was understood by Tibetans, under advisement from their pandita informants, meant “resting in the natural state.”
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Re: New guy to Tantra

Post by Malcolm »

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Re: New guy to Tantra

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

James84 wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 1:26 am

You said that the instructions of a guru, life circumstances, etc all play into what practices one may do throughout the day. Would you be able to give me a basic idea of how a lay practitioner may practice throughout the day? For example in some Zen lineages I have studied with it was suggested that we do morning and evening meditation (usually breath counting). In the Chan tradition we were suggested the same thing but included time for chanting the Buddhas name. Is there any common schedules for daily practice amongst lay practitioners?
It again depends on organization, teacher, lineage, cycle of practice etc. There are more general non-Tantric practices like water bowl offerings, specific prayers etc. that are a daily thing for many practitioners. Monks and people in retreat usually have specific schedules.
For the response about the annuttarayoga tantra practice you said that they involve generating oneself as the yidam. Do other tantric practices not do this? Or is it to a different degree? You also mentioned that lower practices tend to emphasize externality, would you be able to clarify what this means since I have not heard this before.
My understanding and experience is that in other Yogas (Kriya Yoga for example) often self-generation isusually not involved and the deity is visualized in front of oneself, etc.
The comment by crazywisdom also mentioned that anuttarayoga practices are different at both deity yoga and completion and its part of our journey to discover this. Is it possible to summarize briefly what some differences may be? Is it as simple as different mudras/mantras/visualizations, or is it more complex in a way I am not thinking?

Thank you all!
I wouldn't worry about questions at this level of detail, and in fact I think it's possibly not the best idea to pre-condition oneself in that way before practicing.

If you're going to though, you can read this:

https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/ ... 0861713127

I read it, also read some somewhat easier, more casually written books on Tantra early on. It was helpful for a bit background, but I think at some point I just had to stop because thoughts about how things were supposed to be were just getting in the way of everything.

Some questions like this, you can take two Lamas and ask them (I know because I've seen it), and they will sit there and back forth with it, and you might even get slightly different answers.

The world of Tantra is kind of labyrinthine, and it's easy to get lost in the intellectual side of it, in my experience...YMMV.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

-Khunu Lama
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Re: New guy to Tantra

Post by Natan »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 2:09 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 1:24 pm
Malcolm wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 7:29 pm

That depends on how it is etymologized. For example, Srivasta Ramaswami, my guru of yoga, explains this word is often mistranslated by yoga scholars. We commonly hear that yoga means 'to yoke', from the Sanskrit word 'yuj'. But it is actually a derivative of the word 'yuja' which means 'peace of mind', or 'samadhi', which is the 8th limb of yoga.

Likewise, Tibetan, the early translators translated the term yoga as rnal 'byor. Rnal is from "rnal ma," which means perfect, true, and actual, and here, fundamental.

"byor here means to settle. So in this context, yoga means "to settle into one's authentic fundamental condition."
All these yoga gurus have to be the guy who shows everyone else got it wrong and push their pet system... The word they all know is Yōg... And It's all any of them say going back to Bhagavad Gita and Upanishads. Find me the word Yuja in Upanishads. It's just like OM. Know one knows where the symbol came from. All they know is it's old. Indian history is a dense fog. They were shitty record keepers. It's mostly guesswork. And the thing about Sanskrit is there are huge lists of cognate terms. Try looking up words in a Sanskrit dictionary. So many words mean multiple things and many words have the same meaning. The idea of one original root is BS, just like we cannot know who's got the purest vajra lineage. I have to concede that. Note on that however, there is a way to know how Indians practiced tantra. Besides what stuff means is not very important, everyone know yoga is for peace of mind, bija and Asana don't mean anything. They are functional.
You’ve completely misunderstood the point of my post, but perhaps it is because I did not provide enough context.

Rnal’byor in no way means joining two things together. This is consistent with Ramasvami’s contention, where he is discussing Patanjali’ Yoga Sutras.

In other places he agrees that the word yoga can mean jointing two things together, for example Bhakti yoga, etc. but the term “yoga,” as it was understood by Tibetans, under advisement from their pandita informants, meant “resting in the natural state.”
So you're saying Tibetans agree with Ashtanga Yoga.
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Re: New guy to Tantra

Post by Malcolm »

Crazywisdom wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 3:08 pm
So you're saying Tibetans agree with Ashtanga Yoga.

While there are certainly texts in the Tenjur that define "yoga" in line with the idea of joining two things together, such as uniting method and wisdom, we also find definitions such as the one is a commentary on the Fifty Verses of Guru Devotion, "Yoga is a samadhi that transcends the world." Likewise, in the Yoga Sutras, we find the line, "Yoga is the cessation of transformations of the mind." Of course the philosophical base of the two traditions is not the same: the former being rooted in Madhyamaka, the latter in Saṃkhya, but the definitions are more or less the same.

Given that there is no way to derive joining two things from "rnal 'byor" at all, one assumes that the idea of the Indian panditas of eighth century who assisted Tibetan translators was more oriented towards the resting in the natural state idea.
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Re: New guy to Tantra

Post by Natan »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 3:55 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 3:08 pm
So you're saying Tibetans agree with Ashtanga Yoga.

While there are certainly texts in the Tenjur that define "yoga" in line with the idea of joining two things together, such as uniting method and wisdom, we also find definitions such as the one is a commentary on the Fifty Verses of Guru Devotion, "Yoga is a samadhi that transcends the world." Likewise, in the Yoga Sutras, we find the line, "Yoga is the cessation of transformations of the mind." Of course the philosophical base of the two traditions is not the same: the former being rooted in Madhyamaka, the latter in Saṃkhya, but the definitions are more or less the same.

Given that there is no way to derive joining two things from "rnal 'byor" at all, one assumes that the idea of the Indian panditas of eighth century who assisted Tibetan translators was more oriented towards the resting in the natural state idea.
Samadhi doesn't imply a natural state. It's literally means mental sameness. You have to work to get there...
Last edited by Natan on Fri Jul 30, 2021 4:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Malcolm
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Re: New guy to Tantra

Post by Malcolm »

Crazywisdom wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 4:00 pm
Samadhi doesn't imply a natural state. It's literally means mental sameness. You have to work to get there...
I am just telling you what the Tibetan term "rnal 'byor" actually means. rnal refers to "rnal ma." 'Byor in this context is defined through its synonym, babs, which means to settle.

In Tibetan, to join is "sbyor ba," for example in rlung gi sbyor, which is "vāyu yoga." So generally, rnal 'byor means one thing; sbyor ba means another. So a rnal 'byor pa is one is who is able to rest or settle into their real condition.
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